The Running Thread Vol 2
Discussion
bigandclever said:
tenohfive said:
Side note - heard on James Elson (Centurion Running's RD) podcast that the LL100 winner for the last two years Mike Jones is setting up a Snowdonian pair of races - pick 50 or 100 miles with either 6000 or 11000 metres (not feet) of vert. I just can't think of anything in the UK with even close to that amount of climb.
http://apexrunning.co/utsrace/
A Bob Graham Round is around 66 miles and climbing 26,000 feet (7900metres or so) ... is that a similar profile?http://apexrunning.co/utsrace/
AndStilliRise said:
Just been told that i am pushing a too hard. Training runs need to be easier. This is what i don't understand, I would have thought that i need to deliver the paces in training to deliver them in the race? I am not sure how to expect a faster race if i can not do it in training?!
No one is saying never run hardWhat they're saying is that your % hard of your total weekly is probably too high
What does your training look like?
johnwilliams77 said:
AndStilliRise said:
Just been told that i am pushing a too hard. Training runs need to be easier. This is what i don't understand, I would have thought that i need to deliver the paces in training to deliver them in the race? I am not sure how to expect a faster race if i can not do it in training?!
No one is saying never run hardWhat they're saying is that your % hard of your total weekly is probably too high
What does your training look like?
As several have asked, post what a typical month's worth of training (cycling and running) looks like. Are you including a recovery week every third or fourth week etc?
Cybertronian said:
johnwilliams77 said:
AndStilliRise said:
Just been told that i am pushing a too hard. Training runs need to be easier. This is what i don't understand, I would have thought that i need to deliver the paces in training to deliver them in the race? I am not sure how to expect a faster race if i can not do it in training?!
No one is saying never run hardWhat they're saying is that your % hard of your total weekly is probably too high
What does your training look like?
As several have asked, post what a typical month's worth of training (cycling and running) looks like. Are you including a recovery week every third or fourth week etc?
Most training routines increase for 3-4 weeks then you have a easy week to recover before ramping it up for the next 4 weeks.
Also you need to understand your psyche , i know i will turn up on race day so if i'm getting niggles during my later training i'm better off reducing it and i'll be ok race day , others i run with go to pieces if they go off plan and others get really bad nerves on race day despite doing there training 100% spot on .
Mothersruin said:
Zone 2 'running' for me consists of jogging down hills and a brisk walk up hills. Flat is just too much for running and not enough for walking.
Can't see how it benefits.
Maybe I just need to get fit enough to make it work.
Or just accept being able to run at whatever your current speed without injury .Can't see how it benefits.
Maybe I just need to get fit enough to make it work.
I'd partially like to run quicker but i work with a chap who was very quick , he was about 3.10 for marathon so decided to get a coach and try and get under 3.05 and a good for age time for London.
It all went tits up as he pushed himself so hard he ended up damaging his achilies and a year later he's still not running.
Personally i'd settle being a bit slower but able to turn my hand at most distances/terrains for a few more years yet.
egor110 said:
Mothersruin said:
Zone 2 'running' for me consists of jogging down hills and a brisk walk up hills. Flat is just too much for running and not enough for walking.
Can't see how it benefits.
Maybe I just need to get fit enough to make it work.
Or just accept being able to run at whatever your current speed without injury .Can't see how it benefits.
Maybe I just need to get fit enough to make it work.
I'd partially like to run quicker but i work with a chap who was very quick , he was about 3.10 for marathon so decided to get a coach and try and get under 3.05 and a good for age time for London.
It all went tits up as he pushed himself so hard he ended up damaging his achilies and a year later he's still not running.
Personally i'd settle being a bit slower but able to turn my hand at most distances/terrains for a few more years yet.
Mothersruin said:
egor110 said:
Mothersruin said:
Zone 2 'running' for me consists of jogging down hills and a brisk walk up hills. Flat is just too much for running and not enough for walking.
Can't see how it benefits.
Maybe I just need to get fit enough to make it work.
Or just accept being able to run at whatever your current speed without injury .Can't see how it benefits.
Maybe I just need to get fit enough to make it work.
I'd partially like to run quicker but i work with a chap who was very quick , he was about 3.10 for marathon so decided to get a coach and try and get under 3.05 and a good for age time for London.
It all went tits up as he pushed himself so hard he ended up damaging his achilies and a year later he's still not running.
Personally i'd settle being a bit slower but able to turn my hand at most distances/terrains for a few more years yet.
Has anyone suffered from Tibialis Posterior Tendon issues? I was running 10-15 miles in hills last year, 3-4 times a week, but last October twisted by ankle on a climb in the dark, and then ran another 5k or so. February I crashed my bike which caused a lot of knee issues and some issues at the head of my fibula. These are largely gone now I think, but my ankle is causing me trouble... I can run about once a week but I get bad pain on the inside of my ankle, right by the bone, later the same/on the following day. Extremely frustrating not to be able to run for so long because really felt that last year my running came on massively.
Anyway, physio etc says Tibialis Posterior tendon issues, but I can do single leg heel raises etc. no problems, no pain, but if I bend my ankle up (i.e. point toes at head when lying down) or run on across a slope so that the outside of my foot is lower than the inside, get sharp pains... Anyone have experience with this issue and what it feel like/what recovery was like?
Anyway, physio etc says Tibialis Posterior tendon issues, but I can do single leg heel raises etc. no problems, no pain, but if I bend my ankle up (i.e. point toes at head when lying down) or run on across a slope so that the outside of my foot is lower than the inside, get sharp pains... Anyone have experience with this issue and what it feel like/what recovery was like?
Edited by glasgow mega snake on Monday 21st August 21:44
tenohfive said:
Walmsley is the wild card because his speed is incredible, but his judgement is questionable and I think he's still a bit of an unknown quantity at the 100 mile distance.
If I were a betting man my money would be on Kilian or Francois - I'm just not sure if there will be any team cycling style, set the leader (Kilian) up for the win amongst the Salomon boys or not. Having watched Francois' GR20 FKT video I kind of want him to win; he comes across as a proper family man but who can win time and time again on big courses.
The whole Skyline Scotland series looks good this year, good luck with GCS. I'll be up that way too (not doing the GCS though, maybe next year) and it's great that there's a decent showcase of UK races.
Side note - heard on James Elson (Centurion Running's RD) podcast that the LL100 winner for the last two years Mike Jones is setting up a Snowdonian pair of races - pick 50 or 100 miles with either 6000 or 11000 metres (not feet) of vert. I just can't think of anything in the UK with even close to that amount of climb.
http://apexrunning.co/utsrace/
Yip hopefully the weather isn't bad and i can enjoy the views while suffering badly! haha!1If I were a betting man my money would be on Kilian or Francois - I'm just not sure if there will be any team cycling style, set the leader (Kilian) up for the win amongst the Salomon boys or not. Having watched Francois' GR20 FKT video I kind of want him to win; he comes across as a proper family man but who can win time and time again on big courses.
The whole Skyline Scotland series looks good this year, good luck with GCS. I'll be up that way too (not doing the GCS though, maybe next year) and it's great that there's a decent showcase of UK races.
Side note - heard on James Elson (Centurion Running's RD) podcast that the LL100 winner for the last two years Mike Jones is setting up a Snowdonian pair of races - pick 50 or 100 miles with either 6000 or 11000 metres (not feet) of vert. I just can't think of anything in the UK with even close to that amount of climb.
http://apexrunning.co/utsrace/
Ah yes i know Jonesy...run with a good friend of his up here in Aberdeenshire. Looks like it could be a very tough event, will try dig out some more information from him and report back anything i get!
Re my Sage Canaday comment - it comes across I don't like him, which I didn't mean. I'd like him to do well, I just don't think he's quite in the same league as the really big distance guys. His natural place seems to be around the 50 mile mark and there seems a lot of pressure to use that as a graduate distance and race 100s, chase the sponsorship and exposure.
As for below - TLDR - focus on one thing at a time, don't neglect rest and nutrition.
Regards training load and volume, I believe there are two main and fairly simple rules that guide training for improvement. The first is Periodisation/Training Blocks/Current Focus - whatever you want to call it. This is the main purpose of the training you are doing, or planning to do and is generally part of a larger plan leading up to a race. So you may divide a five month/20 week lead up to a race as:
Month 1: Endurance Block 1
Month 2: Endurance Block 2
Month 3: Speed
Month 4: Endurance & Speed Endurance
Month 5: Speed and Taper to Race
In each block, your primary focus is on the goal of that block. Blocks could also be weight loss, core strength and gym work, have some fun because I'm burnt out, but it is a singular focus. Then, within the block you set your training and eating/lifestyle to achieve the goal of the block. Trying to focus on many things at once is at least hard and prone to failure, which is disappointing. It may even be counterproductive; for example, not replacing enough calories post-long run to allow adequate recovery before the next training session, which will gradually increasing fatigue and make the same sessions harder in the future, not easier.
So the second main rule is regarding Training Load. There is a lot of good advice immediately above. These are just my thoughts. An "A" race is a special, one off event. Assuming you've been realistic but challenging with your goal setting, hitting your target time should require a singular, special and very high level of effort. Your training should be preparing you for this. So learning to run as far, if not farther than required is good. Doing it at an easier than race pace means it's a highly repeatable session as recovery is much faster. Adequate recovery allows you to increase the distance for the same effort level. Thus you can build endurance. Equally, running as fast as, and faster than race pace is important too. In training, you make the sessions repeatable. Again, adequate recovery means repeat-ability. You would not do a full race distance at race pace. The 80/20 rule is a good one.
So, looking at the five month plan, you would put the same effort (Load) into each month, but the mileage in month 3 would be much lower than months 1 and 2, because you're focused on speed sessions. So you will run less distance overall, but some running will be much faster, therefore harder on the body. A good comparison would be an 80 minute session. In month one, this could be a 80 minute easy/moderate run. In month three, this could be 20 mins very easy running, 10 mins mobilisation, 30 mins of intervals (2 mins on, 1 min off at 5.30/mile pace), 20 minutes cool down very easy running and stretching.
The other two key ingredients to the mix are rest and nutrition. Lack of attention in either area and you can have the best training plan in the world, and (attempt to) follow it to the letter, but success will be harder tom come by and the potential will not be fulfilled.
Realising that fitness is a by-product of your actions, not a direct result is critical. If lifting weights made you strong, then you could just sit and lift weights constantly and be the strongest person in the world, right? Or, strength is a by-product of training load, plus recovery plus correct fuelling.
As for below - TLDR - focus on one thing at a time, don't neglect rest and nutrition.
Regards training load and volume, I believe there are two main and fairly simple rules that guide training for improvement. The first is Periodisation/Training Blocks/Current Focus - whatever you want to call it. This is the main purpose of the training you are doing, or planning to do and is generally part of a larger plan leading up to a race. So you may divide a five month/20 week lead up to a race as:
Month 1: Endurance Block 1
Month 2: Endurance Block 2
Month 3: Speed
Month 4: Endurance & Speed Endurance
Month 5: Speed and Taper to Race
In each block, your primary focus is on the goal of that block. Blocks could also be weight loss, core strength and gym work, have some fun because I'm burnt out, but it is a singular focus. Then, within the block you set your training and eating/lifestyle to achieve the goal of the block. Trying to focus on many things at once is at least hard and prone to failure, which is disappointing. It may even be counterproductive; for example, not replacing enough calories post-long run to allow adequate recovery before the next training session, which will gradually increasing fatigue and make the same sessions harder in the future, not easier.
So the second main rule is regarding Training Load. There is a lot of good advice immediately above. These are just my thoughts. An "A" race is a special, one off event. Assuming you've been realistic but challenging with your goal setting, hitting your target time should require a singular, special and very high level of effort. Your training should be preparing you for this. So learning to run as far, if not farther than required is good. Doing it at an easier than race pace means it's a highly repeatable session as recovery is much faster. Adequate recovery allows you to increase the distance for the same effort level. Thus you can build endurance. Equally, running as fast as, and faster than race pace is important too. In training, you make the sessions repeatable. Again, adequate recovery means repeat-ability. You would not do a full race distance at race pace. The 80/20 rule is a good one.
So, looking at the five month plan, you would put the same effort (Load) into each month, but the mileage in month 3 would be much lower than months 1 and 2, because you're focused on speed sessions. So you will run less distance overall, but some running will be much faster, therefore harder on the body. A good comparison would be an 80 minute session. In month one, this could be a 80 minute easy/moderate run. In month three, this could be 20 mins very easy running, 10 mins mobilisation, 30 mins of intervals (2 mins on, 1 min off at 5.30/mile pace), 20 minutes cool down very easy running and stretching.
The other two key ingredients to the mix are rest and nutrition. Lack of attention in either area and you can have the best training plan in the world, and (attempt to) follow it to the letter, but success will be harder tom come by and the potential will not be fulfilled.
Realising that fitness is a by-product of your actions, not a direct result is critical. If lifting weights made you strong, then you could just sit and lift weights constantly and be the strongest person in the world, right? Or, strength is a by-product of training load, plus recovery plus correct fuelling.
AbzST64 said:
tenohfive said:
Walmsley is the wild card because his speed is incredible, but his judgement is questionable and I think he's still a bit of an unknown quantity at the 100 mile distance.
If I were a betting man my money would be on Kilian or Francois - I'm just not sure if there will be any team cycling style, set the leader (Kilian) up for the win amongst the Salomon boys or not. Having watched Francois' GR20 FKT video I kind of want him to win; he comes across as a proper family man but who can win time and time again on big courses.
The whole Skyline Scotland series looks good this year, good luck with GCS. I'll be up that way too (not doing the GCS though, maybe next year) and it's great that there's a decent showcase of UK races.
Side note - heard on James Elson (Centurion Running's RD) podcast that the LL100 winner for the last two years Mike Jones is setting up a Snowdonian pair of races - pick 50 or 100 miles with either 6000 or 11000 metres (not feet) of vert. I just can't think of anything in the UK with even close to that amount of climb.
http://apexrunning.co/utsrace/
Yip hopefully the weather isn't bad and i can enjoy the views while suffering badly! haha!1If I were a betting man my money would be on Kilian or Francois - I'm just not sure if there will be any team cycling style, set the leader (Kilian) up for the win amongst the Salomon boys or not. Having watched Francois' GR20 FKT video I kind of want him to win; he comes across as a proper family man but who can win time and time again on big courses.
The whole Skyline Scotland series looks good this year, good luck with GCS. I'll be up that way too (not doing the GCS though, maybe next year) and it's great that there's a decent showcase of UK races.
Side note - heard on James Elson (Centurion Running's RD) podcast that the LL100 winner for the last two years Mike Jones is setting up a Snowdonian pair of races - pick 50 or 100 miles with either 6000 or 11000 metres (not feet) of vert. I just can't think of anything in the UK with even close to that amount of climb.
http://apexrunning.co/utsrace/
Ah yes i know Jonesy...run with a good friend of his up here in Aberdeenshire. Looks like it could be a very tough event, will try dig out some more information from him and report back anything i get!
So 100 miles/11k.... I'll stick to marshalling...!
andy_s said:
Jeezo, that's monstrous - definitely on a par with the rounds; commercially I suppose the nearest to the fifty miler are the 10 Peaks Long courses (80-90k/5.5k), Sky Lakes (55k/5k) / GCS (50k/5k), Lakes in a Day (50miles/4k). But apart from DB which is a multi day, I don't know of anything approaching that rate of climb over that distance...
So 100 miles/11k.... I'll stick to marshalling...!
Really mental to be honest! Has to be up there as one of the biggest climbs in the ultra circuit in the world for that distance almost? Will be very interesting to see if it happens...!So 100 miles/11k.... I'll stick to marshalling...!
Ok, just done this, which is what the training wanted, but i am spent now. Think i need to get my mindset out of the training hard = results because clearly it doesn't.
Training: 3*1m, off 1m recovery.
This is what i did:
1m w/u + drills
6:53. HR155
7:56. HR140
6:56. HR155
7:55. HR140
6:58. HR155
8:03. HR140
6.2m/46:24 (nearly as fast as Sun race!)
1m w/d
What do you guys think?
Training: 3*1m, off 1m recovery.
This is what i did:
1m w/u + drills
6:53. HR155
7:56. HR140
6:56. HR155
7:55. HR140
6:58. HR155
8:03. HR140
6.2m/46:24 (nearly as fast as Sun race!)
1m w/d
What do you guys think?
AbzST64 said:
Really mental to be honest! Has to be up there as one of the biggest climbs in the ultra circuit in the world for that distance almost? Will be very interesting to see if it happens...!
Quite possibly; it's on a par with UTMB I guess, 170k/10k iirc, so certainly well up there - anything else with the same climb/distance that I can think of are longer/multi-stage like Tors or PTL but it's not the same format really - off the top of my head anyway. AndStilliRise said:
Ok, just done this, which is what the training wanted, but i am spent now. Think i need to get my mindset out of the training hard = results because clearly it doesn't.
Training: 3*1m, off 1m recovery.
This is what i did:
1m w/u + drills
6:53. HR155
7:56. HR140
6:56. HR155
7:55. HR140
6:58. HR155
8:03. HR140
6.2m/46:24 (nearly as fast as Sun race!)
1m w/d
What do you guys think?
What does your training program look like??!????Training: 3*1m, off 1m recovery.
This is what i did:
1m w/u + drills
6:53. HR155
7:56. HR140
6:56. HR155
7:55. HR140
6:58. HR155
8:03. HR140
6.2m/46:24 (nearly as fast as Sun race!)
1m w/d
What do you guys think?
AndStilliRise said:
Generally, it is working on 2 or 3 speed sessions per week, 1 tempo, 1 long and lots of easy running in between, peaking on 80mpw.
I only get told on the day what needs to be done, otherwise i end up overthinking the weeks effort and rearranging to make it easier for myself!
80 mpw for a marathon ?I only get told on the day what needs to be done, otherwise i end up overthinking the weeks effort and rearranging to make it easier for myself!
wow that's more than i'd bother doing for a 50k , is there a possibility your over training and loosing your spark ?
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