The Running Thread Vol 2

[tenohfive]

VEA said:

I've never run more than 17km in one hit.
I much prefer running the trails than I do on the road, as I have gotten more and more into it over the last year or so I've found myself completely in awe of the Ultra/trail community.
It's odd as I have absolutely zero interest in running a marathon, but the idea of some ridiculous ultra trail along a rocky coast line or over some hill somewhere.

Obviously I need to start by stretching out my distances but basically wondering on a route to 50km...

I can't suggest any specific training plan as I did it by eye. What training are you doing at the moment? My own route to ultras in race terms (half marathon->22 miler ->55km ultra) came in less than a year, with my training focus being largely on hills rather than overall volume. I did incorporate a lot of cross training though. Both reasons were down to injuries (and life) restricting my mileage, but you don't have to be out running 6 times a week to get an ultra under your belt.

The two workouts that are a cast iron basis of my training week are the long slow run and hill reps. The long run builds aerobic endurance, metabolic efficiency, muscle glycogen storage...and it's fun. Whilst specificity is handy, I always try to do mine on the trails because whatever the weather it's a whole lot more interesting. Keep the intensity low - you should be able to hold a conversation throughout. If you start getting into moderate intensity territory you start burning a greater percentage of carbs. At lower intensity you're getting most of your energy from fat - and you'll become more efficient at it as a result. Burning a mix you don't really improve efficiency at burning either carbs or fat. And how you get your energy is highly relevant to ultras.

Hills are a part of the vast majority of trail ultras - and even if they weren't, hill reps makes a lot of sense. You can get some intensity in with reduced impact forces and is good for developing power. A typical hill reps session for me consists of a 10 minute warm up jog, 6 reps up a hill (that takes me 2-2:30 mins to get up, running hard) then 10 minute cool down jog.

In your shoes I'd start off by looking at your weekly long run and build it up steadily each week. Add a km (or 10%) each week to it whilst keeping your other runs to the same rough distance, until you're at around 14-16 miles (22-25km) for your weekly long run. Hill reps each week (or fortnightly if it comes to it.) Chuck in a bit of fartlek if you fancy a break or getting to hills proves too much hassle for a weekly event.
That'll help build a decent base and steadily increase your weekly mileage to a point where you've got the flexibility to focus on whatever it is that you feel is race specific or an area of weakness for you. But you don't need to run silly mileage to get an ultra under your belt (speaking from personal experience.)

Some overarching principles I'd keep in mind whatever you do:
1. Don't build volume too quickly, keep it steady to avoid injury. 10% overall is an oft-recommended increase.
2. Don't worry about skipping a 'key' workout or session - training is cumulative, as long as you're getting those runs in the bank your fitness and running economy will all increase. No one workout will make or break a race.
3. Keep most of your running at a lower intensity - you need some hard workouts in there but the figure of 80% of running at lower intensity is one I keep in mind. It's not a religious, must-abide target but a useful guide.
3. Cycling is a great low intensity form of cross training. It's not totally equivalent and I find I need to double the time of sessions but it helps mix things up.
4. Nutrition is a massive can of worms so much nearer race time look into the things that work for you.

Have you got an eye on any particular race yet? If not, Endurance Life do some decent and well run events along the coastline. Exmoor in particular is beautiful and very hilly; it's a shame they've removed the 45 mile distance from that race due to lack of interest. They're still keeping the shorter (50km-ish) ultra though.

It's worth doing some other trail races too in the meantime - a bit of race experience helps, and they can be used to tune up things like gear and nutrition but mostly it's just good to have something interesting to look forward to en route to your goal race.

Edited by tenohfive on Monday 23 October 13:52

[Cybertronian]

johnwilliams77 said:

What was your ave 12-16milage and time? 3:15 ish I think you said before?

Average weekly mileage was 42, with a peak week of 60. Total mileage from beginning to end of the plan, including the race, was 894. I actually extended the plan to 22 weeks, factoring in several easier weeks at the beginning as I was coming back from an injury, and to also build in some fat for a couple of non-plan 10k races and illness (lost 2 weeks due to a nasal infection).

PB is 3:00:34. Followed the same plan last year and went from 3:34 to 3:03.

Edited by Cybertronian on Monday 23 October 13:58

[VEA]

tenohfive said:

Stuff

Wow, thank you for all that. Much to take in.

My weekly routine at the moment is tues lunch run between 5 & 10km, thurs lunch run between 5 & 10km (25/26m 5km). All on road, and all relatively flat. Longer slower run at the weekend, generally upping back now (after a few weeks off) to around 15km (around 2hrs).

[Mothersruin]

tenohfive said:

VEA said:

I've never run more than 17km in one hit.
I much prefer running the trails than I do on the road, as I have gotten more and more into it over the last year or so I've found myself completely in awe of the Ultra/trail community.
It's odd as I have absolutely zero interest in running a marathon, but the idea of some ridiculous ultra trail along a rocky coast line or over some hill somewhere.

Obviously I need to start by stretching out my distances but basically wondering on a route to 50km...

I can't suggest any specific training plan as I did it by eye. What training are you doing at the moment? My own route to ultras in race terms (half marathon->22 miler ->55km ultra) came in less than a year, with my training focus being largely on hills rather than overall volume. I did incorporate a lot of cross training though. Both reasons were down to injuries (and life) restricting my mileage, but you don't have to be out running 6 times a week to get an ultra under your belt.

The two workouts that are a cast iron basis of my training week are the long slow run and hill reps. The long run builds aerobic endurance, metabolic efficiency, muscle glycogen storage...and it's fun. Whilst specificity is handy, I always try to do mine on the trails because whatever the weather it's a whole lot more interesting. Keep the intensity low - you should be able to hold a conversation throughout. If you start getting into moderate intensity territory you start burning a greater percentage of carbs. At lower intensity you're getting most of your energy from fat - and you'll become more efficient at it as a result. Burning a mix you don't really improve efficiency at burning either carbs or fat. And how you get your energy is highly relevant to ultras.

Hills are a part of the vast majority of trail ultras - and even if they weren't, hill reps makes a lot of sense. You can get some intensity in with reduced impact forces and is good for developing power. A typical hill reps session for me consists of a 10 minute warm up jog, 6 reps up a hill (that takes me 2-2:30 mins to get up, running hard) then 10 minute cool down jog.

In your shoes I'd start off by looking at your weekly long run and build it up steadily each week. Add a km (or 10%) each week to it whilst keeping your other runs to the same rough distance, until you're at around 14-16 miles (22-25km) for your weekly long run. Hill reps each week (or fortnightly if it comes to it.) Chuck in a bit of fartlek if you fancy a break or getting to hills proves too much hassle for a weekly event.
That'll help build a decent base and steadily increase your weekly mileage to a point where you've got the flexibility to focus on whatever it is that you feel is race specific or an area of weakness for you. But you don't need to run silly mileage to get an ultra under your belt (speaking from personal experience.)

Some overarching principles I'd keep in mind whatever you do:
1. Don't build volume too quickly, keep it steady to avoid injury. 10% overall is an oft-recommended increase.
2. Don't worry about skipping a 'key' workout or session - training is cumulative, as long as you're getting those runs in the bank your fitness and running economy will all increase. No one workout will make or break a race.
3. Keep most of your running at a lower intensity - you need some hard workouts in there but the figure of 80% of running at lower intensity is one I keep in mind. It's not a religious, must-abide target but a useful guide.
3. Cycling is a great low intensity form of cross training. It's not totally equivalent and I find I need to double the time of sessions but it helps mix things up.
4. Nutrition is a massive can of worms so much nearer race time look into the things that work for you.

Have you got an eye on any particular race yet? If not, Endurance Life do some decent and well run events along the coastline. Exmoor in particular is beautiful and very hilly; it's a shame they've removed the 45 mile distance from that race due to lack of interest. They're still keeping the shorter (50km-ish) ultra though.

It's worth doing some other trail races too in the meantime - a bit of race experience helps, and they can be used to tune up things like gear and nutrition but mostly it's just good to have something interesting to look forward to en route to your goal race.

Edited by tenohfive on Monday 23 October 13:52

Agreed - brilliant post and thanks for taking the time.

I'm off to do some hill work this afternoon and really get the legs pumping - just got to find a gentle enough hill.

[egor110]

VEA said:

tenohfive said:

Stuff

Wow, thank you for all that. Much to take in.

My weekly routine at the moment is tues lunch run between 5 & 10km, thurs lunch run between 5 & 10km (25/26m 5km). All on road, and all relatively flat. Longer slower run at the weekend, generally upping back now (after a few weeks off) to around 15km (around 2hrs).

Have a look at this - http://www.scrunners.org/ultramarathon-training-sc...

for a 50k you could also just follow a normal marathon plan but run off road and do back to back runs so you get used to running on tired legs.

also pick your race carefully , some are more hilly than others some are better sign posted than others but if you want sea views then have a look at endurance life / trail events and pure trails.

[johnwilliams77]

Cybertronian said:

Average weekly mileage was 42, with a peak week of 60. Total mileage from beginning to end of the plan, including the race, was 894. I actually extended the plan to 22 weeks, factoring in several easier weeks at the beginning as I was coming back from an injury, and to also build in some fat for a couple of non-plan 10k races and illness (lost 2 weeks due to a nasal infection).

PB is 3:00:34. Followed the same plan last year and went from 3:34 to 3:03.

Edited by Cybertronian on Monday 23 October 13:58

That's promising. I am just ahead of 3:30 and sub 3:17 would be an absolute dream. Well done to you.

[Smitters]

Though it does depend on whether you want to race or just run, I would say following any basic marathon training program would be fine for a 50 km ultra, with the slight modification that as much as is practical should be offroad. Offroad in general and especially in winter means pace is a funny old beast, so I would say a good rule of thumb would be if the road plan calls for a six mile run and you would normally do this in 60 minutes, then spend 60 minutes offroad. You might not make 6 miles, but the time on feet will count for a lot and the experience trail running gives you is invaluable, especially when legs are tired and the path is rooty and rocky.

Up to 50 km, adding a month to the end of the plan and doing a few more weeks of longer runs will help confidence, kit testing, nutrition testing and finding what foot care you need to do, but is very optional.

Up to 50 miles, a max long run of 30 miles will likely be fine and although I'm rubbish at finding the time, many swear by the back to back, doing 20 miles Saturday and 10 miles Sunday, for example.

Over 50 miles, I don't have much insight, other than 30-35 miles is still probably the max long run and it's more the mental game anyway.

Walking is often a significant part of an ultra. Stow your ego. Uphills are for eating and engaging different muscles.

Yes you do need the very latest kit - kit ogling, faffing with kit, testing kit and modifying kit is all essential to ultra success (this is a lie).

To be perfectly honest, most people could go out and cover 30 miles on foot if they absolutely had to, right now. The "my significant other is in trouble and I need to get to them right now by any means..." moment. Once you accept the premise your body is already capable and set aside the fear of the unknown, it all starts to look quite normal and achievable, until you start wondering about a sub-10 50, or want a sub-24 100. Therein lies madness - madness I tell you.

My advice would be to book something, train a bit for it and see how you go. Its bloody good fun and a lot less stressful and scientific than a road marathon. I was on a reserve list for a hilly 50 miler and only found out I was in five weeks before. I had done a bit of cycling (1-3 hours inc coffee stops/week), a walking holiday in the Himalayas and two runs in the four months before toe-ing that line. What's the worst that can happen? I was recently divorced, angry and out to prove a point. It was a mental game and I got it done.

[johnwilliams77]

Great insights and sensible thread. My biggest issues with marathons and ultra is post event no running....

[VEA]

Smitters said:

more stuff

More great advice. Thank you.

I can be pretty bull headed at times so I think I'll be OK in that respect. I'm most nervous about the feeding aspect of it all, I have a very fussy body when it comes to food. I'll figure that all out though.

I think in the initial I'll start upping my weekend runs distance and see how I go.
I've been looking at things like Pure Trails and others for May time next year..

[Smitters]

VEA said:

More great advice. Thank you.

I can be pretty bull headed at times so I think I'll be OK in that respect. I'm most nervous about the feeding aspect of it all, I have a very fussy body when it comes to food. I'll figure that all out though.

I think in the initial I'll start upping my weekend runs distance and see how I go.
I've been looking at things like Pure Trails and others for May time next year..

No worries. Get into the mood by looking up some stuff on youtube too - coverage of the UTMB, TransGrancanaria and so on are really cool.

Ultras will tend to demand real food for most. You only go so far on gels and sweets. The Dean Karnazes story of him running along eating pizza is the stuff of movies in one respect, but on the other hand, pizza slices are a very useful shape for eating on the run. Food-wise, I would say eat what you like to eat. You'll soon find what works.

Others have said too - hills if a hilly ultra - specificity in training is a good thing. Ask the guy who failed to realise how many sets of steps there were on the northern shores of Anglesey. Oh.My.Quads.+DNF

On thing I found is that ultras throw odd questions at you, but you can give odd answers. Like, what's it like running on trails at night? How do I get my training done without too much impact on family life and how uncomfortable is it running on a full stomach? All answerable with a post-supper run after putting the kids to bed. No one in their right mind would eat a large meal and go for a run during marathon training, but sometimes on an ultra you need to eat some food and get moving (or do some equally odd combination, like kip in a bush and get up at 3am) so you also get to try this stuff out in training. All part of the fun.

Just don't go "Full-Cracknell" and pee into a bottle when in bed with your missus "because that's what we'll be doing in the South Pole race"...

Also, the MarathonTalk podcast back-catalogue for combatting boredom - some great interviews in there (inc. Cracknell).

[Cybertronian]

johnwilliams77 said:

That's promising. I am just ahead of 3:30 and sub 3:17 would be an absolute dream. Well done to you.

Thanks!

For me, the biggest bang for my training buck from P&D's plans are the mid-week medium-long runs, especially when marathon pace was introduced into the mix. Quite challenging, especially as I was training in the height of the summer and run-commuting the distance from work to home, so definitely not fresh. Helped with mental toughness!

Finally, very easy paced recovery runs were a godsend for boosting mileage with low injury/illness risk. I often went running with my wife, pacing her at 11-12 minute miles, so we both benefited.

[johnwilliams77]

Cybertronian said:

Thanks!

For me, the biggest bang for my training buck from P&D's plans are the mid-week medium-long runs, especially when marathon pace was introduced into the mix. Quite challenging, especially as I was training in the height of the summer and run-commuting the distance from work to home, so definitely not fresh. Helped with mental toughness!

Finally, very easy paced recovery runs were a godsend for boosting mileage with low injury/illness risk. I often went running with my wife, pacing her at 11-12 minute miles, so we both benefited.

I was doing 10-13 mile Thursday runs, many averaging in the 7 min area. Guess I need more prwctice at tempo!

[andy_s]

VEA said:

Anyone in here do ultra distances?

Some great replies Smitters and tenohfive, not a lot to add to that...

From my own point of view ultras are more about survival than winning (ie mentality-wise), a typical training run is probably between 12 and 18 miles across country a few times a week, but I'm not flying around, just enjoying the morning and getting time on feet. I stretch it out to 20/25 miles tops a few times before a 'B' event and train more specifically in build up for an 'A' race, depending on the nature of the challenge. 'Fast-pack' walking around the hills for a few long days is probably some of the best training I do - great for leg strength & CV without the routine impact. I try to stay in 'chat' mode throughout - i.e. can talk while running on the flat. Time on feet & long-game pace....

Ultras are multi-faceted, for example in-race nutrition, hydration, feet problems, self-medication, type of equipment, shoe, drop-bags, race plan, navigating, weather, terrain, support crew plus all the 'what-ifs', and although there is good general guidance on all of these, (as the guys mention above), your own experience will eventually hone it down to what actually works best for you.

Critical thing is to enjoy the day - the longer it takes - the more value for money

[Mothersruin]

Ok, just done my first hill sprints since I was in my early 20's (a long time ago).

I did a ten minute slow jog warm up and then managed a whopping 5 sprints!

Extrapolating from Garmin, it seems it was a 15% hill as I was doing a 20m climb over 130m. Fast as I could up, walk down. Concave shape too so it got steeper the further up I got.

Last few steps of each one were lactic agony.

Same route back for a warm down.

I'll try for six next week.

[MattS5]

I spent Saturday evening running with a family member who was participating in the Centurion Autumn 100 race.
Pacers were allowed from 50 miles onwards, and had to do 25 miles or 50.
I took the 25 option and really enjoyed it.

Much slower than my normal run pace, but heading out at 7pm in the dark, rain and wind to run a 12.5 mile out and back from Goring along the Ridgeway path was great fun.
Got back just before midnight and passed the pacing duty to another running club friend who then accompanied him to 100 miles and the finish.
He did it in 19hrs 40mins.......true grit!

It did get me and my pacer mate thinking we should tackle a 50 mile event at some point.

In terms of organisation, these guys were spot on. Probably why their events sell out so quickly.
http://www.centurionrunning.com/races/autumn-100-2...

[tenohfive]

andy_s said:

Ultras are multi-faceted, for example in-race nutrition, hydration, feet problems, self-medication, type of equipment, shoe, drop-bags, race plan, navigating, weather, terrain, support crew plus all the 'what-ifs', and although there is good general guidance on all of these, (as the guys mention above), your own experience will eventually hone it down to what actually works best for you.

Critical thing is to enjoy the day - the longer it takes - the more value for money

Both points are spot on (they would be, coming from a Dragons Back participant) and it harks back to something I mentioned a page or two back - it's all the variables that add to the appeal for me.

MattS5 said:

In terms of organisation, these guys were spot on. Probably why their events sell out so quickly.
http://www.centurionrunning.com/races/autumn-100-2...

They do seem to have a solid reputation, and there's certainly a fantastic community feel to their social media groups - looking on Facebook you could be mistaken for thinking it's one big running club. I've never done one of their races but I've met the RO of Centurion a couple of times, and it's clear that he's passionate about running. Nice chap. He does a podcast with Dan Lawson if anyone's interested:
https://itunes.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-british-ul...

[Challo]

Ran the Water of Life Half Marathon in Marlow on Sunday. First trail run, like the course as it was very picturesque but it wasn’t well organised. The start seemed a bit disorganised, the end seemed like no one was around. Had to get my own water, medal and bag.

Also the watch said the course was half a km short. Another guy was moaning as well saying it was short. Also had to email them as my time is not on the results page.
Probably won’t do it again but I did manage to get a PB of 1.40.

[mon the fish]

johnwilliams77 said:

Mid week tempo run (12/13 miles), long run at weekends 18's building up to 20's, quicker tempo run on a tuesday (easy runs on other days). Around 50 miles a week should see it done for me with a little bit more doing the same thing. I did 5 days a week before, with always Monday and Friday off with an average of 40-45 miles a week. I am probably going to increase it to 6 days a week and sit at 50mpw and increase it to 55 then 60 peak before my next marathon in April.

What is your average mileage? I did a reasonable amount of cycling also (50-80mpw, 2/3 times cycles a week), this probably helps my aerobic capacity to hold the pace more comfortably for a marathon.

Monday - Spin class then badminton
Tuesday - 7 miles
Wednesday - Spin class
Thursday - Badminton
Friday - Night off
Weekend - Anything between 10 and 20 miles depending on how close I am to the marathon

So not as much as I should be doing then...

[johnwilliams77]

mon the fish said:

Monday - Spin class then badminton
Tuesday - 7 miles
Wednesday - Spin class
Thursday - Badminton
Friday - Night off
Weekend - Anything between 10 and 20 miles depending on how close I am to the marathon

So not as much as I should be doing then...

Jeez - you ran those times on 2 runs a week? (1 LR and one 7 miles?!) Well done, lots of potential in that case.

[AbzST64]

My fellow runnning mate did the Lon Las Ultra across Wales a couple of weekends back!!

253 Miles non stop ultra....he finished 3rd in 83hrs i think! Absolutely unbelievable! I think the field started with 27 runners and only 6/7 finished..!

I'm stepping up to ultras next year and can't wait (although won't be doing anything like the above) haha!