The Running Thread Vol 2

[Candellara]

Well, local Ortho unit phoned me this morning.

Stress fracture diagnosed. (You can see where the bone in now reforming / healing about 2/3's down - whiter area) I explained that I've been running throughout since the fracture happened (Bournemouth Marathon)

I now only experience slight discomfort on long (15km+) road runs as opposed to being "in agony" on the Great South Run 6 weeks ago and advise from them - continue to take things easy as the tibia continues to heal :-) (Bloody cheek)

Run on treadmill as opposed to road where possible and if the pain starts again - STOP. Listen to your body was pretty much their advise. So, that's that I guess. Hopefully this won't be too much of a prolonged injury and it'll be fully healed before Hamburg Marathon in April

Edited by Candellara on Tuesday 3rd December 15:08

Edited by Candellara on Tuesday 3rd December 15:08

[RobM77]

Gosh, that's a bit stty. Fingers crossed it'll heal quickly for you.

[SHutchinson]

My running has been terrible in 2019, I've been plagued by a lower back issue since last years Cross Country league. Been having physio and doing pilates but nothing has been touching the pain. Physio diagnosed an issue with my sacroiliac joint. Fast forward to a call from my GP's receptionist yesterday and my blood tests came back clear but my x-rays have shown signs of "arthritic changes in the lower spine".

So. Anyone run with "arthritic changes" in their lower back? I've got an appt. with the GP for a better explanation and an appt. with the musculoskeletal service who might be able to get me an MRI.

Currently relieved they've discovered an issue (I was fairly sure it wasn't just muscular) but a bit concerned that I've got arthritis!

[JimmyConwayNW]

You know those times when you say at the weekend on Monday having a healthy week and lots of running and then end up with an absolute stinker of a cold and feeling achy and awful. No runs since Saturday for me. Need to be motivated to get out in the cold and dark, I usually quite like it. Time to buy some new trainers that will help.

[RizzoTheRat]

Having not had any ITB troubles for a year or two I've got complacent about stretching it. Combined with a lack of training recently and my knee conked out about 11km in to the Rotterdam Bruggenloop (bridge run) last night and I had to walk most of the last 4km. Cycling to work this morning was none to comfortable either.

Amusingly talking to some of the Rotterdam parkrun people on Saturday several commented about the hill at 10km. According to Strava we climbed 26 meters in a kilometre

[Sebo]

Can anyone help me please?

I have recently upped my pace from 9.5 min miles to 8.5 min miles but am massively struggling with lactic acid in my calves after about 15 minutes. My lungs are fine at this pace and I could still hold a conversation if needed (just about!) but within 15 mins my calves feel hot and heavy and maintaining the pace is hard.

What can I be doing to make this easier? In the past, my lungs were the limiting factor in my run pace but that's no longer the case.

What should I be doing please?

[RobM77]

Sebo said:

Can anyone help me please?

I have recently upped my pace from 9.5 min miles to 8.5 min miles but am massively struggling with lactic acid in my calves after about 15 minutes. My lungs are fine at this pace and I could still hold a conversation if needed (just about!) but within 15 mins my calves feel hot and heavy and maintaining the pace is hard.

What can I be doing to make this easier? In the past, my lungs were the limiting factor in my run pace but that's no longer the case.

What should I be doing please?

Firstly, are you sure it's lactic acid build up? Do you know what your heart rate is at this point? You’ll need to be pushing yourself quite hard to experience lactic acid building up – typically over 80-90% max HR.

Secondly, what sort of training are you doing? It’s not advisable to run hard all the time, certainly not if you’re pushing hard enough to build up lactic acid. Firstly, this is likely to lead to an injury. Secondly, it won’t actually train you that well, because the lactic acid will prevent cellular adaptations in your muscles that help you run further (a simple matter of pH).

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 9th December 11:16

[smn159]

Sebo said:

Can anyone help me please?

I have recently upped my pace from 9.5 min miles to 8.5 min miles but am massively struggling with lactic acid in my calves after about 15 minutes. My lungs are fine at this pace and I could still hold a conversation if needed (just about!) but within 15 mins my calves feel hot and heavy and maintaining the pace is hard.

What can I be doing to make this easier? In the past, my lungs were the limiting factor in my run pace but that's no longer the case.

What should I be doing please?

That's a big step up in one go, you should do it gradually to allow your body time to adapt.

How many miles per week are you doing and are you doing it consistently? If you're running all of your weekly mileage at 9m30/m, you could try running shorter intervals at a faster pace rather than suddenly running all of your mileage at 8m30/m

[RobM77]

smn159 said:

Sebo said:

Can anyone help me please?

I have recently upped my pace from 9.5 min miles to 8.5 min miles but am massively struggling with lactic acid in my calves after about 15 minutes. My lungs are fine at this pace and I could still hold a conversation if needed (just about!) but within 15 mins my calves feel hot and heavy and maintaining the pace is hard.

What can I be doing to make this easier? In the past, my lungs were the limiting factor in my run pace but that's no longer the case.

What should I be doing please?

That's a big step up in one go, you should do it gradually to allow your body time to adapt.

How many miles per week are you doing and are you doing it consistently? If you're running all of your weekly mileage at 9m30/m, you could try running shorter intervals at a faster pace rather than suddenly running all of your mileage at 8m30/m

We really need to know if 8min30s per mile is your race pace, your easy run pace etc, and what your HR is when running it to verify this is lactic acid, and not just muscle fatigue. If the latter, how are you structuring your training? Some muscle fatigue is to be expected, but yo need to be wary of pushing your body too far for too long, otherwise injury can result.

Most runners will do targeted speed sessions during a training week, plus the occasional race at their steady race pace, but most of their mileage will be at an easy conversational pace. As a simple example of a training week, a keen club runner who races 10ks at 4min/km (6:25/mile) may be running 70-80km a week, most of which is actually at a conversational/easy pace with a heart rate of around 140 and a pace of about 5min/km. They'd do a weekly intervals session faster than race pace (e.g. 5 x 800m at 3:30min/km), and a tempo session slightly slower (e.g. 7km at 4:10/km), but everything else, including their Sunday long run, would be at a conversational pace - i.e. an easy jog.

Edited to add: From how you describe this pace, this sounds like close to a tempo run effort for you, which is where you skirt the boundary between lactate being cleared and building up, in order to extend this zone (both physiologically and psychologically). If that's the case, for most runners this run should be preceded by a warm up at an easy pace for 10-15 minutes, only done once a week, followed by a ~10min cool down, and with a rest or easy day afterwards. Tempo is one of the three key weekly runs most runners do, the others being intervals (e.g. 10min warm up, 5 x 800m hard-ish with walk/jog recovery, then 10min cool done) and the long run (easy gentle pace for about 25-30% of your weekly mileage) - all the other mileage most runners will do is easy, with a few really competitive runners adding another intervals or hill session into their week. This sort of programme needs to be built up to, with your baseline being easy paced runs.

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 9th December 16:52

[Smitters]

Turns out Monday at 5am is harder than Sunday night. Yeah - I didn't make that run. Bought some new Injinji socks to compensate and made it to the gym, but I'm 17 weeks out from the spring marathon, so st gets real next Monday.

[smn159]

Smitters said:

I'm 17 weeks out from the spring marathon, so st gets real next Monday.

Brighton?

[Smitters]

smn159 said:

Smitters said:

I'm 17 weeks out from the spring marathon, so st gets real next Monday.

Brighton?

Great Welsh - Pembrey to Llanelli and back. Here's hoping for low levels of wind...

[john_1983]

Anyone doing the marcothon?

[JimmyConwayNW]

Should have took my snorkel for my run tonight instead of a head torch. Absolutely drenched. Like a run in the rain but not had a wet run with so much standing water was running through puddles and what felt like a stream coming down one road.

Something about running in the rain I absolutely love. Weirdo I know.

[Sebo]

RobM77 said:

Firstly, are you sure it's lactic acid build up? Do you know what your heart rate is at this point? You’ll need to be pushing yourself quite hard to experience lactic acid building up – typically over 80-90% max HR.

Secondly, what sort of training are you doing? It’s not advisable to run hard all the time, certainly not if you’re pushing hard enough to build up lactic acid. Firstly, this is likely to lead to an injury. Secondly, it won’t actually train you that well, because the lactic acid will prevent cellular adaptations in your muscles that help you run further (a simple matter of pH).

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 9th December 11:16

smn159 said:

That's a big step up in one go, you should do it gradually to allow your body time to adapt.

How many miles per week are you doing and are you doing it consistently? If you're running all of your weekly mileage at 9m30/m, you could try running shorter intervals at a faster pace rather than suddenly running all of your mileage at 8m30/m

RobM77 said:

We really need to know if 8min30s per mile is your race pace, your easy run pace etc, and what your HR is when running it to verify this is lactic acid, and not just muscle fatigue. If the latter, how are you structuring your training? Some muscle fatigue is to be expected, but yo need to be wary of pushing your body too far for too long, otherwise injury can result.

Most runners will do targeted speed sessions during a training week, plus the occasional race at their steady race pace, but most of their mileage will be at an easy conversational pace. As a simple example of a training week, a keen club runner who races 10ks at 4min/km (6:25/mile) may be running 70-80km a week, most of which is actually at a conversational/easy pace with a heart rate of around 140 and a pace of about 5min/km. They'd do a weekly intervals session faster than race pace (e.g. 5 x 800m at 3:30min/km), and a tempo session slightly slower (e.g. 7km at 4:10/km), but everything else, including their Sunday long run, would be at a conversational pace - i.e. an easy jog.

Edited to add: From how you describe this pace, this sounds like close to a tempo run effort for you, which is where you skirt the boundary between lactate being cleared and building up, in order to extend this zone (both physiologically and psychologically). If that's the case, for most runners this run should be preceded by a warm up at an easy pace for 10-15 minutes, only done once a week, followed by a ~10min cool down, and with a rest or easy day afterwards. Tempo is one of the three key weekly runs most runners do, the others being intervals (e.g. 10min warm up, 5 x 800m hard-ish with walk/jog recovery, then 10min cool done) and the long run (easy gentle pace for about 25-30% of your weekly mileage) - all the other mileage most runners will do is easy, with a few really competitive runners adding another intervals or hill session into their week. This sort of programme needs to be built up to, with your baseline being easy paced runs.

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 9th December 16:52

Thanks RobM77 and smn159 for taking the time to reply.

Here’s the best description of my training – haphazard, sporadic and ineffective

I tried to pay for a run coach in October (a 2:12 Marathon time and a coach) but he didn’t seem that interested. To be fair to him, he said he was very busy with his own training and probably wouldn’t be able to give it as much focus as usual (but that he was ok to coach) but he has since stopped replying to my emails so I’ll take the hint.

What training am I doing?

• I ran / walked a 30 mile Trail Ultra back in November but was slow as anything (8 hours) as I had done the sum total of running one half marathon (2hr 10) on the road as the entirety of my training
• I can pretty much run a 10 min mile indefinitely (ish..)
• I ran a 4:48 Marathon at Berlin 8 years ago
• At the moment, most of my training is 5km Treadmill runs

In answer to the question above - 8 min 30 secs is a hard pace for me – as has been demonstrated, I can seemingly only keep that pace up for 15 minutes before needing to slow down (whereas 10 min mile feel likes an all-day pace) whether that is due to what I perceive to be lactic build up or whatever else

Running outside, I can do a 5km in 28 mins which equates to 9 min miles.

What am I trying to do?

• Brighton Marathon 2020 - Sub 4 hr 30 Mins (though I want to understand what I'd need to do to go sub 4hr)

Ok.. so it feels like we know 2 things:
5km pace is circa 9 min / mile | 5:40 / KM
"All day pace" is 10 min / mile | 6:15 / KM

Having just googled Tempo runs and Interval runs, this brought me to this page:
https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/training/a761676/r...
and plugging in my details, I get:


In Min / KM


In Min / Mile


What's next?

[C0ffin D0dger]

JimmyConwayNW said:

Something about running in the rain I absolutely love. Weirdo I know.

I honestly don't mind it either once I'm going. I'm pretty sweaty at the end of a run anyway so the rain doesn't really make much difference. I've found it can lead to tender nips though if you get properly soaked

[RobM77]

Sebo said:

RobM77 said:

Firstly, are you sure it's lactic acid build up? Do you know what your heart rate is at this point? You’ll need to be pushing yourself quite hard to experience lactic acid building up – typically over 80-90% max HR.

Secondly, what sort of training are you doing? It’s not advisable to run hard all the time, certainly not if you’re pushing hard enough to build up lactic acid. Firstly, this is likely to lead to an injury. Secondly, it won’t actually train you that well, because the lactic acid will prevent cellular adaptations in your muscles that help you run further (a simple matter of pH).

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 9th December 11:16

smn159 said:

That's a big step up in one go, you should do it gradually to allow your body time to adapt.

How many miles per week are you doing and are you doing it consistently? If you're running all of your weekly mileage at 9m30/m, you could try running shorter intervals at a faster pace rather than suddenly running all of your mileage at 8m30/m

RobM77 said:

We really need to know if 8min30s per mile is your race pace, your easy run pace etc, and what your HR is when running it to verify this is lactic acid, and not just muscle fatigue. If the latter, how are you structuring your training? Some muscle fatigue is to be expected, but yo need to be wary of pushing your body too far for too long, otherwise injury can result.

Most runners will do targeted speed sessions during a training week, plus the occasional race at their steady race pace, but most of their mileage will be at an easy conversational pace. As a simple example of a training week, a keen club runner who races 10ks at 4min/km (6:25/mile) may be running 70-80km a week, most of which is actually at a conversational/easy pace with a heart rate of around 140 and a pace of about 5min/km. They'd do a weekly intervals session faster than race pace (e.g. 5 x 800m at 3:30min/km), and a tempo session slightly slower (e.g. 7km at 4:10/km), but everything else, including their Sunday long run, would be at a conversational pace - i.e. an easy jog.

Edited to add: From how you describe this pace, this sounds like close to a tempo run effort for you, which is where you skirt the boundary between lactate being cleared and building up, in order to extend this zone (both physiologically and psychologically). If that's the case, for most runners this run should be preceded by a warm up at an easy pace for 10-15 minutes, only done once a week, followed by a ~10min cool down, and with a rest or easy day afterwards. Tempo is one of the three key weekly runs most runners do, the others being intervals (e.g. 10min warm up, 5 x 800m hard-ish with walk/jog recovery, then 10min cool done) and the long run (easy gentle pace for about 25-30% of your weekly mileage) - all the other mileage most runners will do is easy, with a few really competitive runners adding another intervals or hill session into their week. This sort of programme needs to be built up to, with your baseline being easy paced runs.

Edited by RobM77 on Monday 9th December 16:52

Thanks RobM77 and smn159 for taking the time to reply.

Here’s the best description of my training – haphazard, sporadic and ineffective

I tried to pay for a run coach in October (a 2:12 Marathon time and a coach) but he didn’t seem that interested. To be fair to him, he said he was very busy with his own training and probably wouldn’t be able to give it as much focus as usual (but that he was ok to coach) but he has since stopped replying to my emails so I’ll take the hint.

What training am I doing?

• I ran / walked a 30 mile Trail Ultra back in November but was slow as anything (8 hours) as I had done the sum total of running one half marathon (2hr 10) on the road as the entirety of my training
• I can pretty much run a 10 min mile indefinitely (ish..)
• I ran a 4:48 Marathon at Berlin 8 years ago
• At the moment, most of my training is 5km Treadmill runs

In answer to the question above - 8 min 30 secs is a hard pace for me – as has been demonstrated, I can seemingly only keep that pace up for 15 minutes before needing to slow down (whereas 10 min mile feel likes an all-day pace) whether that is due to what I perceive to be lactic build up or whatever else

Running outside, I can do a 5km in 28 mins which equates to 9 min miles.

What am I trying to do?

• Brighton Marathon 2020 - Sub 4 hr 30 Mins (though I want to understand what I'd need to do to go sub 4hr)

Ok.. so it feels like we know 2 things:
5km pace is circa 9 min / mile | 5:40 / KM
"All day pace" is 10 min / mile | 6:15 / KM

Having just googled Tempo runs and Interval runs, this brought me to this page:
https://www.runnersworld.com/uk/training/a761676/r...
and plugging in my details, I get:


In Min / KM


In Min / Mile


What's next?

No problem - glad to help.

I used that calculator the other day, and it was pretty close to the results I got from recent testing for VO2 Max etc, so that's really handy.

Others who are better qualified may be along to give advice as well, but personally I would say you need to run at your 'easy' pace for now and gently build up to running every other day over the course of a few weeks. When you run depends on your schedule, but you may for example do 5km on Tues, Thurs, and then Sat or Sunday. If it becomes more than 'easy', then stop and walk for a bit. When you can reliably run 3 times a week at an easy pace, you want to gradually build in specific runs; I'd start with going longer at the weekend (try 7km at first) and trying some intervals on one of the other runs. If it's a key run like these (long or interval) then ensure you always rest well afterwards. Always add one thing at a time, whether that be distance or pace - think of the overall loading on your body. Eventually you may add in a tempo run (a period at the prescribed pace above). Once that's all done, you can add in easy runs on the off days, or lengthen existing runs. It's all about small steps and recovery, especially if you're over 30.

Get decent shoes, watch some You Tube vids on warm up routines to get the limbs moving and blood flowing and look at post run stretches too. For the speed workouts always warm up and warm down (10-15 minutes at an easy pace) before attempting anything fast (remember this at Parkrun and races too).

Just ask if you need any more info - plenty on here will be happy to help.

[smn159]

/\/\/\/\/\/\

What Rob said. Only thing that I'd add is that you should look at a couple of strength and conditioning sessions each week. Doesn't have to be in a gym, but stuff that strengthens your hips, glutes and helps with single leg balance is good and will help you avoid injury as well as help to make you faster.

These guys are pretty good;

https://runsmartonline.com

[RobM77]

smn159 said:

/\/\/\/\/\/\

What Rob said. Only thing that I'd add is that you should look at a couple of strength and conditioning sessions each week. Doesn't have to be in a gym, but stuff that strengthens your hips, glutes and helps with single leg balance is good and will help you avoid injury as well as help to make you faster.

These guys are pretty good;

https://runsmartonline.com

Gosh, yes, I meant to say that and completely forgot. I've tried running with and without gym work, with very light gym work and with heavier weights, and my conclusion is that it's super important to prevent injury, at least for me. An awful lot of my aches and pains have disappeared since I started doing decent weighted gym exercises twice a week. There are some good routines out there to follow (e.g. Runner's World), and of course it's a good idea to focus on known weaknesses.

[Sebo]

Thanks again both, really helpful. I'll post back once I've got a plan and post some updates

cheers again