Wiggins - could this be a Similar issue as Lance A ?
Discussion
firstly the Doctor must prescribe the drug and then the appropriate authority WADA or such like gives it the ok.
So to satisfy a few people all riders are going to have to publish their Private Medical Records.
So if the drugs are being prescribed incorrectly the Doctors are in serious trouble here.
So to satisfy a few people all riders are going to have to publish their Private Medical Records.
So if the drugs are being prescribed incorrectly the Doctors are in serious trouble here.
It seems when theirs something "British" in cycling, rules suddenly seem very bendable, whether it's Armitstead, Cavendish or Wiggins. To name a few.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/sep/23/brad...
Another journalist who doesn't seem (or want) to understand the difference between actual rules, maintaining those rules and the spirit of the rules.
And the way he starts his write-up is disgusting:
A syringe pumping its 40mg charge of triamcinolone acetonide into the buttock of an athlete does not, on the face of it, have much in common with an Su-24 attack plane unloading its 500kg bombs on a convoy of vehicles in Syria. But as the world slides, inch by inch, towards something that appears potentially much worse than the old Cold War, we are being forced to see Bradley Wiggins as playing a small but not entirely insignificant part in the grim process.
Downplaying the affair by comparing it with war crimes, utterly moronic.
"Bradley Wiggins operated within doping rules - but rules maybe wrong".
Bulls
t of course, its not the rules which are wrong, the rules are clear, no performance enhancing drugs.
This part speaks volumes:
Wiggins, whose own personality is not always his best friend at such moments, seems to be very poorly advised. “There’s nothing new here,” his spokesperson said in a first reaction to the news of the intramuscular cortisone injections. Nothing new to Wiggins and his team perhaps, but certainly new to the outside world, which had taken at face value his apparent support in his 2012 autobiography, My Time, for a no-needle policy and his statement that he had received injections only for the purpose of vaccination and rehydration.
These cortisone injections, taken before big events and permitted by cycling’s governing body on the basis of minimising the effect of a severe pollen allergy, were obviously intended to affect his performance by enabling him to race normally. But they might also have had the effect of allowing him to improve on the level he would have achieved naturally without either the asthmatic condition or its prescribed antidote.
Racing Through the Dark, the autobiography published by David Millar in 2011, contains an interesting account of winning the silver medal in the 2001 world time trial championship after being given an intramuscular shot of the same drug, under the pretence that he was suffering from tendonitis. “A few days after the cortisone injection I began to lose weight,” he writes. “I was skinnier than I’d ever been … Logic would dictate that I felt weaker, and yet I’d never felt so strong. I felt like I could suffer more and push myself harder than ever.” It was, he concluded, “probably the most powerful drug out there, yet with the right prescription it could be used legally”.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/sep/23/brad...
Asked to describe the effects of using triamcinolone – which is widely used to treat inflammation of various kinds – both Rasmussen and another self-confessed drug-taker, the Briton David Millar, agreed that it was a potent performance-enhancing substance. Describing the effect of using Kenacort – one of the names under which triamcinolone is sold – and calling for it to be banned, Millar said, “it was the only [drug] you took and three days later you looked different. It’s quite scary because it’s catabolic so it’s eating into you. It felt destructive. It felt powerful.”
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/sep/23/brad...
Another journalist who doesn't seem (or want) to understand the difference between actual rules, maintaining those rules and the spirit of the rules.
And the way he starts his write-up is disgusting:
A syringe pumping its 40mg charge of triamcinolone acetonide into the buttock of an athlete does not, on the face of it, have much in common with an Su-24 attack plane unloading its 500kg bombs on a convoy of vehicles in Syria. But as the world slides, inch by inch, towards something that appears potentially much worse than the old Cold War, we are being forced to see Bradley Wiggins as playing a small but not entirely insignificant part in the grim process.
Downplaying the affair by comparing it with war crimes, utterly moronic.
"Bradley Wiggins operated within doping rules - but rules maybe wrong".
Bulls
t of course, its not the rules which are wrong, the rules are clear, no performance enhancing drugs. This part speaks volumes:
Wiggins, whose own personality is not always his best friend at such moments, seems to be very poorly advised. “There’s nothing new here,” his spokesperson said in a first reaction to the news of the intramuscular cortisone injections. Nothing new to Wiggins and his team perhaps, but certainly new to the outside world, which had taken at face value his apparent support in his 2012 autobiography, My Time, for a no-needle policy and his statement that he had received injections only for the purpose of vaccination and rehydration.
These cortisone injections, taken before big events and permitted by cycling’s governing body on the basis of minimising the effect of a severe pollen allergy, were obviously intended to affect his performance by enabling him to race normally. But they might also have had the effect of allowing him to improve on the level he would have achieved naturally without either the asthmatic condition or its prescribed antidote.
Racing Through the Dark, the autobiography published by David Millar in 2011, contains an interesting account of winning the silver medal in the 2001 world time trial championship after being given an intramuscular shot of the same drug, under the pretence that he was suffering from tendonitis. “A few days after the cortisone injection I began to lose weight,” he writes. “I was skinnier than I’d ever been … Logic would dictate that I felt weaker, and yet I’d never felt so strong. I felt like I could suffer more and push myself harder than ever.” It was, he concluded, “probably the most powerful drug out there, yet with the right prescription it could be used legally”.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2016/sep/23/brad...
Asked to describe the effects of using triamcinolone – which is widely used to treat inflammation of various kinds – both Rasmussen and another self-confessed drug-taker, the Briton David Millar, agreed that it was a potent performance-enhancing substance. Describing the effect of using Kenacort – one of the names under which triamcinolone is sold – and calling for it to be banned, Millar said, “it was the only [drug] you took and three days later you looked different. It’s quite scary because it’s catabolic so it’s eating into you. It felt destructive. It felt powerful.”
Edited by DeltonaS on Saturday 24th September 15:26
At least this blows the myth of Sky's marginal gains mantra. In one of his books Wiggins goes on to say about how he's racing with 4% body fat. Now that is almost certainly unachievable by natural means. I think closer inspection of riders who exhibit dramatic weight loss (read unhealthy) whilst not losing any power, all these things need answering, as well as a major overhaul of the TUE system, because it's blatantly clear that it's just another way of gaining an unfair advantage.
ash73 said:
I have acute asthma and take some of the medication mentioned in these reports. I'm only prescribed prednisolone for acute attacks where I’m completely out of breath and can't even sit up in bed or walk to the bathroom, if elite athletes are taking it and then entering the TdF it's an absolute joke.
I also do a lot of swimming and if I take my inhaler before I swim, even when I feel fine, my performance is significantly improved.
On your last point, you might feel fine, but your obviously not. Inhalers have no effect if all your wotsits are working right. The biology is pretty simple and very well understood. If you're just walking about, you don't need all your wotsits working, so you see the difference when you swim.I also do a lot of swimming and if I take my inhaler before I swim, even when I feel fine, my performance is significantly improved.
The reason TUEs are legal is that without them it doesn't matter how good you are, you'd never be able to do elite sport because you couldn't treat your asthma, which is hardly fair.
No idea about Prednisone, I'm sure there's gaming that goes on, but no idea how big a deal it is.
This latest fancy bears release also noted that Cancellera had TUEs in 2011 and 2013 for methylprednisoline. Fuglsang also had permission to take triamcinolone, the same stuff Wiggins took... both Cancellara and Fuglsang did well in the Olympics this year didn't they?
So TUEs appear to have been rife throughout the peloton for years as suspected, hold the front page...
So TUEs appear to have been rife throughout the peloton for years as suspected, hold the front page...
mcelliott said:
At least this blows the myth of Sky's marginal gains mantra. In one of his books Wiggins goes on to say about how he's racing with 4% body fat. Now that is almost certainly unachievable by natural means. I think closer inspection of riders who exhibit dramatic weight loss (read unhealthy) whilst not losing any power, all these things need answering, as well as a major overhaul of the TUE system, because it's blatantly clear that it's just another way of gaining an unfair advantage.
It's like speeding though, we all do it but if only I get caught then no one knows how often or by how much you break the speed limit... Closer inspection of the miraculous mid-race recoveries are also needed but last time I mentioned Nibali's traveling acupuncturist I was called xenophobic!
epom said:
Anyone that thinks they took these for medical or asthmatic reasons is utterly deluded.
By the letter of the law yes they are legal, I'd imagine the reason for those laws is there would be no one at allowed compete if they got stricter. So yes while it's not illegal, but how anyone can claim it isn't cheating quite simply doesn't want to see what is going on.
Hook, line and sinker. Those Russians have got you eating out of their hand.By the letter of the law yes they are legal, I'd imagine the reason for those laws is there would be no one at allowed compete if they got stricter. So yes while it's not illegal, but how anyone can claim it isn't cheating quite simply doesn't want to see what is going on.
epom said:
Farmerpalmer said:
in short.. No.
this smacks of sour grapes by the Russians, releasing confidential info on athletes, as they have been banned.
Lots of athletes will be on medication due to medical conditions, and approved by a appropriate medic.( i.e declared)
Sour grapes or maybe just trying to point a few things out. Seems to be me to be a top top athlete these days you must have asthma. Those at the top of their chosen sports all seem to have it and it has done them no harm whatsoever. How does one go about contracting asthma ?? this smacks of sour grapes by the Russians, releasing confidential info on athletes, as they have been banned.
Lots of athletes will be on medication due to medical conditions, and approved by a appropriate medic.( i.e declared)
thousands of winter hours in this country damp and cold followed by equally cold but incredibly dry air in the Velodrome does take its toll on the lungs. I think some have an agenda against Wiggins on here because if there is a problem it has to be with the Doctors and the process. Throughout the 60's and through the following decades many talented British Cyclists never made it on the continent simply because they wouldn't join the pill takers. The continued success on the road and the track has really pissed of the others who once dominated the sport and the drugs so their answer is to conclude they must have better drugs.
johnxjsc1985 said:
thousands of winter hours in this country damp and cold followed by equally cold but incredibly dry air in the Velodrome does take its toll on the lungs. I think some have an agenda against Wiggins on here because if there is a problem it has to be with the Doctors and the process. Throughout the 60's and through the following decades many talented British Cyclists never made it on the continent simply because they wouldn't join the pill takers. The continued success on the road and the track has really pissed of the others who once dominated the sport and the drugs so their answer is to conclude they must have better drugs.
What a load of toilet. Ive been involved in body building for the last 15 years, which is the breeding ground for some of the protocols of PED. I also have acute allergy related asthma. I can tell you now when you have a big dose of corticoid steroids IT DOES have a big impact. You end up wired, your appetite goes up, you tremble, you can survive on less sleep as your so wired, and have endless energy. It also seems to have a metabolic impact, i.e. when you eat you start sweating.. I can categorically say that it would have helped him. I can go from squatting 140kg for 15 reps to over 20 reps. Im not an elite athlete either. On someone who has every day of their life mapped out it will have an even greater impact.
No wonder he looks sheepish in that interview. He's been rumbled.
Edited by m4tti on Sunday 25th September 13:50
superkartracer said:
READ the link i posted .
Maybe others posting here are either dim or can't read? or blind , anyway TRY reading what drugs were being injected , these drugs are for people about to DIE from asthma , on TOP of that , look at the timing of these drugs . How fking hard can it be to understand ??
Cheatings , same old crap .
One thing about the timing though..Maybe others posting here are either dim or can't read? or blind , anyway TRY reading what drugs were being injected , these drugs are for people about to DIE from asthma , on TOP of that , look at the timing of these drugs . How f
king hard can it be to understand ??Cheating
s , same old crap .If it happens in training, in the off season etc you back off and rest and then come back a week or two later.
That isn't an option in the middle of the Tour de France or just before the Olympics etc.
So to me it kinda makes sense that they would take medication at competition time-because there's no other option if they get ill, besides pulling out.
I know a lot gets thrown around about 'funny how all cyclists are asthmatic' but doing regular cardiovascular sport-especially outside can give you asthma.
I know this because it's happened to me. I wasn't asthmatic, took up running and now need a corticosteroid and salbutamol inhaler. I had my lung function measured and without my inhalers I operate at around 75% of my normal peak flow, which crucially has never changed before/after my asthma. I'm only talking anecdotally from my own experiences but it stacks up to me that asthma mess only return your lungs to their regular capacity, and that pro cyclists/runners etc will suffer with it.
m4tti said:
What a load of toilet. Ive been involved in body building for the last 15 years, which is the breeding ground for some of the protocols of PED.
I also have acute allergy related asthma. I can tell you now when you have a big dose of corticoid steroids IT DOES have a big impact. You end up wired, your appetite goes up, you tremble, you can survive on less sleep as your so wired, and have endless energy. It also seems to have a metabolic impact, i.e. when you eat you start sweating.. I can categorically say that it would have helped him. I can go from squatting 140kg for 15 reps to over 20 reps. Im not an elite athlete either. On someone who has every day of their life mapped out it will have an even greater impact.
No wonder he looks sheepish in that interview. He's been rumbled.
it didn't seem to help him when Froome dropped him on the mountain and I am not sure how Body building is a comparison for a 21 day tour. Whats incredible is how He is being attacked by the mob when he hasn't broken any rules. He didn't buy it in a sweaty little locker room or have someone collect it for him on a motorbike it was prescribed so its hardly hidden or underhand. I also have acute allergy related asthma. I can tell you now when you have a big dose of corticoid steroids IT DOES have a big impact. You end up wired, your appetite goes up, you tremble, you can survive on less sleep as your so wired, and have endless energy. It also seems to have a metabolic impact, i.e. when you eat you start sweating.. I can categorically say that it would have helped him. I can go from squatting 140kg for 15 reps to over 20 reps. Im not an elite athlete either. On someone who has every day of their life mapped out it will have an even greater impact.
No wonder he looks sheepish in that interview. He's been rumbled.
Edited by m4tti on Sunday 25th September 13:50
MarshPhantom said:
Brailsford quoted Arnold Palmer's line about "the more I practice the luckier I get" line after our unusually succesful Olympics.
Trouble is Dave you can't cheat your way to becoming a great golfer.
You can't cheat your way to being a great cyclist and you can gain competitive advantage using illegal substances in golf. Stimulants, drugs which aid concentration and drugs like Meldonium which reduce fatigue and improve recovery would all be useful in golf. Trouble is Dave you can't cheat your way to becoming a great golfer.
Now that unrestricted EPO and blood loading is stopped the benefits of doping in cycling are not massive compared to those in other sports.
As I keep on pointing out:
1: The majority of cyclists have a TUE at some stage
2: The drug Wiggins took has marginal benefit when taken on its own (Testosteron + EPO offset the catabolic effects of the drug) and may even have a net negative side effect if not taken for its medical purpose.
3: This was done under the supervision of the existing TUE system
4: He won plenty of races without any TUE
ash73 said:
It's hardly fair my genes aren't as good as Usain Bolt, I'll never be a supermodel either, that's just how it is. If asthma and allergies can be mitigated without giving people an advantage then ok, but it seems obvious to me the treatments are being exploited.
I don't disagree but I'd blame the UCI. To get a TUE, the UCI have to approve it. If they had the balls they would refuse one like Wiggins' so close to a grand tour but hey, the show must go on and they can't have the biggest star in the sport sat at home can they, think of the sponsors...I also think Doumoulin's comments are going to come back and bite him... I find it interesting that there appears to be a vow of silence from 99% of the peloton...
Surely any drug for which a TUE is granted is by definition a performance enhancing drug under certain conditions or levels or else it wouldn't have been banned in the first place and would not require a TUE?
News night dragging out Rasmussen et al to describe its performance enhancing benefits is not news at all, just stating the obvious. The key issue is therefore the circumstances and quantities that the exemption has been granted for and that information and the performance benefits at that level is completely missing from most of the shock horror news stories.
News night dragging out Rasmussen et al to describe its performance enhancing benefits is not news at all, just stating the obvious. The key issue is therefore the circumstances and quantities that the exemption has been granted for and that information and the performance benefits at that level is completely missing from most of the shock horror news stories.
epom said:
mcelliott said:
A bit of a non event really? Hardly, when you've got the self-appointed spokesman for clean cycling with very clear view of syringe use in the peleton, found to be taking a performance enhancing drug via an inter-muscular injection, to claim his most prestigious win. Not forgetting the lies about his own syringe use in the first place.
Anyone that thinks they took these for medical or asthmatic reasons is utterly deluded. By the letter of the law yes they are legal, I'd imagine the reason for those laws is there would be no one at allowed compete if they got stricter. So yes while it's not illegal, but how anyone can claim it isn't cheating quite simply doesn't want to see what is going on.
In fact It's not cheating at all. It's completely within the rules. What next is cheating, building the best bikes, innovation and technology? Best coaches and most advanced training methods, having more funding? These are the marginal gains. Making small improvements in all areas possible. Not cheating.
This is sport, everyone is trying to legally achieve the biggest advantage. To do anything else would be a bit thick. Has Wiggins been banned? Is he going to be banned? No because he's not cheating.
superkartracer said:
Brads67 said:
And Steve Cummings and Callum Skinner etc etc etc.
If someone decides to keep there medical records private it hardly proves cheating.
And thats whats been leaked. Peoples medical records listing LEGAL treatments that they have had.
READ the link i posted .If someone decides to keep there medical records private it hardly proves cheating.
And thats whats been leaked. Peoples medical records listing LEGAL treatments that they have had.
Maybe others posting here are either dim or can't read? or blind , anyway TRY reading what drugs were being injected , these drugs are for people about to DIE from asthma , on TOP of that , look at the timing of these drugs . How f
king hard can it be to understand ??Cheating
s , same old crap .Gassing Station | Sports | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff