Wiggins - could this be a Similar issue as Lance A ?
Discussion
mcelliott said:
What do you mean proving it’s self dirty? Do you know the history of the sport?
So 10 years with of Tour de France winners who are drug takers5 Olympic gold medals dirty
The fact Bag many have said everyone does it so you cannot otherwise you wouldn’t even be present.
If you think 15 events which were dirty fact isn’t a problem fair enough
Welshbeef said:
mcelliott said:
What do you mean proving it’s self dirty? Do you know the history of the sport?
So 10 years with of Tour de France winners who are drug takers5 Olympic gold medals dirty
The fact Bag many have said everyone does it so you cannot otherwise you wouldn’t even be present.
If you think 15 events which were dirty fact isn’t a problem fair enough
Sky / Brailsford have pushed the rules to the very edge. Just like making the bike as aero as the rules allow to gain advantage, using medicines to levels the rules allow is what has been going on here
The ethics of it are for discussion, but the intention was never (imo) to break the rules, just to push them as far as possible to gain every legal advantage
Just as if your blood alcohol level is 79 then it is clear that you have been drinking, but you don't get convicted as a drink driver for that result.
The ethics of it are for discussion, but the intention was never (imo) to break the rules, just to push them as far as possible to gain every legal advantage
Just as if your blood alcohol level is 79 then it is clear that you have been drinking, but you don't get convicted as a drink driver for that result.
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 5th March 07:41
JPJPJP said:
Sky / Brailsford have pushed the rules to the very edge. Just like making the bike as aero as the rules allow to gain advantage, using medicines to levels the rules allow is what has been going on here
The ethics of it are for discussion, but the intention was never (imo) to break the rules, just to push them as far as possible to gain every legal advantage
To the casual observer that’s seen as cheating. What does the sport view that as?The ethics of it are for discussion, but the intention was never (imo) to break the rules, just to push them as far as possible to gain every legal advantage
Welshbeef said:
So 7 years of Tour de France without a winner
Now the real possibility of a further 3 if Wiggins is stripped.
What about those 5 Olympic Folds..... all stripped.
Should his OBE be removed too
His sponsorships should be removed
Demand recovery of winning prize money
Froome in the mix as well.
Basically cycling is proving beyond doubt to be a filthy drug infested sport with what appears to be winners happily lying for their own greed.
As people are trying to explain, they aren’t going to get stripped of their TdeF titles or Olympic medals or what ever else, because what they have done is within the rules, Now the real possibility of a further 3 if Wiggins is stripped.
What about those 5 Olympic Folds..... all stripped.
Should his OBE be removed too
His sponsorships should be removed
Demand recovery of winning prize money
Froome in the mix as well.
Basically cycling is proving beyond doubt to be a filthy drug infested sport with what appears to be winners happily lying for their own greed.
You’re welsh and you like rugby. Welsh rugby is rotten with doping, most of the uk athletes banned for doping at the moment are welsh rugby payers, save your disgust for them, cycling is doing loads to clean up the sport.
garyhun said:
To the casual observer that’s seen as cheating. What does the sport view that as?
Let's see. I expect a mixed response.Is it also cheating if, rather than using a stock bike, Sky uses a specially developed bike that, whilst being just within the rules, is significantly more aerodynamic than others?
Is it also cheating if it uses a specially developed fabric for its team jerseys that, whilst being just within the rules, is significantly more aerodynamic than others?
El stovey said:
As people are trying to explain, they aren’t going to get stripped of their TdeF titles or Olympic medals or what ever else, because what they have done is within the rules,
You’re welsh and you like rugby. Welsh rugby is rotten with doping, most of the uk athletes banned for doping at the moment are welsh rugby payers, save your disgust for them, cycling is doing loads to clean up the sport.
Cycling maybe, Team Sky no.You’re welsh and you like rugby. Welsh rugby is rotten with doping, most of the uk athletes banned for doping at the moment are welsh rugby payers, save your disgust for them, cycling is doing loads to clean up the sport.
There are rules there is cheating and there is being within the rules but not the spirit of the rules, SKY in my view have been doing the last one,
They’re very careful not to break the rules, just to play right up to the letter of the law,
It’s up to people whether it’s dodgy, Sky seem to admit they went too far but they haven’t broken any rules as far as I can I see anyway.
They’re very careful not to break the rules, just to play right up to the letter of the law,
It’s up to people whether it’s dodgy, Sky seem to admit they went too far but they haven’t broken any rules as far as I can I see anyway.
Sky have broken no rules, just maybe pushed them ethically.
Bit of an over reaction on here I feel.
Nothing will get stripped from anyone. Reputations will be tarnished a bit maybe but ultimately they have won everything fair and square.
It all falls into the "marginal gains" philosophy of Team Sky.
To class it as "cheating" is naive. No rules were broken.
Bit of an over reaction on here I feel.
Nothing will get stripped from anyone. Reputations will be tarnished a bit maybe but ultimately they have won everything fair and square.
It all falls into the "marginal gains" philosophy of Team Sky.
To class it as "cheating" is naive. No rules were broken.
Voldemort said:
El stovey said:
...cycling is doing loads to clean up the sport.
Because it needs to...This smacks of the outcry over tax avoidance... essentially people staying just inside the rules to pay the minimum. That wasn't the fault of those minimising their tax bill, it was the fault of the rule-makers. The government's rules weren't up to the task.
On the face of it, cycling is the same - lax rules exploited by ruthlessly capable medic, managers and athletes.
However, in this case, this is a sport supported by the public and sponsored by companies that value their image. If I was on the board of Sky, I would not accept the 'it was legal, if not ethical' defence. I wouldn't want to be associated with the unethical use of drugs for a sporting advantage. It will be interesting to see how Sky respond to this.
For me, the whole thing stinks. My ire is not limited to the athletes and the team, but also to the ruling bodies. Professional support continues to provide role models that ultimately disappoint.
On the face of it, cycling is the same - lax rules exploited by ruthlessly capable medic, managers and athletes.
However, in this case, this is a sport supported by the public and sponsored by companies that value their image. If I was on the board of Sky, I would not accept the 'it was legal, if not ethical' defence. I wouldn't want to be associated with the unethical use of drugs for a sporting advantage. It will be interesting to see how Sky respond to this.
For me, the whole thing stinks. My ire is not limited to the athletes and the team, but also to the ruling bodies. Professional support continues to provide role models that ultimately disappoint.
NoisyGriff said:
This smacks of the outcry over tax avoidance... essentially people staying just inside the rules to pay the minimum. That wasn't the fault of those minimising their tax bill, it was the fault of the rule-makers. The government's rules weren't up to the task.
On the face of it, cycling is the same - lax rules exploited by ruthlessly capable medic, managers and athletes.
I'd agree and, from what I've read, can't see the justification to strip people of titles etc. however if you're prepared to venture into this kind of an area where the rules are concerned, you also have to be prepared for the consequences if your practices are exposed. Personally therefore, I have no sympathy for Team Sky or Wiggins, regardless of their whinging this morning.On the face of it, cycling is the same - lax rules exploited by ruthlessly capable medic, managers and athletes.
and has no self awareness. Phew, lots of opinions on the rights and wrongs and this is a very complex issue
Firstly Athletes who train up to three times a day six days a week are putting their bodies through very intensive physical stress. This means that those same conditions in a part time athlete may go unnoticed.
So do we want rules say that the welfare of an athlete must go untreated in the name of 'clean sport' or should there be TUE's. I think a fair minded and ethical approach would be to allow TUE's to treat the athlete whilst they have that condition.
However and I think this is the issue, the evidence has to be totally transparent and clearly documented. As with all drugs batch and manufacture date is available, it is understandable that a drug may be preferred from a regular and known source (some cheap drugs or vitamins are mixed in the same mixer as banned substances and yes its traces from a previous mix that can contaminate what is believed to be a legitimate drug).
So the infamous Jiffy bag may have contained the legal medicine, however because of the lack of documentation we may never know. In addition apart from the Jiffy bag is the missing lap top with its data so with all the resources and stated attention to detail why wasn't the lap top automatically backed up many corporate do this.
So we are left with inadequate documentation, suspicious packages and the notion that cheating may have occurred.
Maybe cheating did occour, maybe it didn't I don't think anyone on this forum has the full picture just innuendo.
What is clear further tightening of procedures, more testing and better documentation is in order.
I think the message is Team Sky and all teams and riders you must do better to make sure the public, the sport and officials are confident in it being a 100% clean sport.
Firstly Athletes who train up to three times a day six days a week are putting their bodies through very intensive physical stress. This means that those same conditions in a part time athlete may go unnoticed.
So do we want rules say that the welfare of an athlete must go untreated in the name of 'clean sport' or should there be TUE's. I think a fair minded and ethical approach would be to allow TUE's to treat the athlete whilst they have that condition.
However and I think this is the issue, the evidence has to be totally transparent and clearly documented. As with all drugs batch and manufacture date is available, it is understandable that a drug may be preferred from a regular and known source (some cheap drugs or vitamins are mixed in the same mixer as banned substances and yes its traces from a previous mix that can contaminate what is believed to be a legitimate drug).
So the infamous Jiffy bag may have contained the legal medicine, however because of the lack of documentation we may never know. In addition apart from the Jiffy bag is the missing lap top with its data so with all the resources and stated attention to detail why wasn't the lap top automatically backed up many corporate do this.
So we are left with inadequate documentation, suspicious packages and the notion that cheating may have occurred.
Maybe cheating did occour, maybe it didn't I don't think anyone on this forum has the full picture just innuendo.
What is clear further tightening of procedures, more testing and better documentation is in order.
I think the message is Team Sky and all teams and riders you must do better to make sure the public, the sport and officials are confident in it being a 100% clean sport.
Edited by Toaster on Monday 5th March 09:09
Gassing Station | Sports | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff