2017 Lions Tour

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London424

12,826 posts

174 months

Monday 24th April 2017
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I know it won't happen but wouldn't it just make a lot of sense to play the Sarries/England pack. That's 5 of the 8 sorted, then fill in the gaps around that.

You've already got the understanding and it's not like they haven't been playing at a high level the last 2 years or anything.

phil_cardiff

7,041 posts

207 months

Monday 24th April 2017
quotequote all
London424 said:
I know it won't happen but wouldn't it just make a lot of sense to play the Sarries/England pack. That's 5 of the 8 sorted, then fill in the gaps around that.

You've already got the understanding and it's not like they haven't been playing at a high level the last 2 years or anything.
I'd be tempted. Plus the Irish half backs (if Murray is fit).

Cheib

23,110 posts

174 months

Monday 24th April 2017
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London424 said:
I know it won't happen but wouldn't it just make a lot of sense to play the Sarries/England pack. That's 5 of the 8 sorted, then fill in the gaps around that.

You've already got the understanding and it's not like they haven't been playing at a high level the last 2 years or anything.
You'd have to think it would be mighty tempting.....

I'd imagine first couple of games the teams will be selected around existing combinations given the lack of prep time. Apparently for the first squad session they reckon only 12 players will be available ! First game is three days after they land apparently.

phil_cardiff

7,041 posts

207 months

Monday 24th April 2017
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It's always hard to win a Lions series. The lack of time together is exacerbated by a tough travel schedule in NZ this time too. I fear a 'backwash' but it won't be as bad as 2005 under that cretin.

C70R

17,596 posts

103 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
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To be honest, the Ireland/Wales tactics are more sophisticated than 'a bit of bosh' when executed well (although Wales have admittedly regressed towards this in recent times).
In actual fact, they aren't dissimilar to the sort of low-percentage rugby that Sarries have been so successful at in recent times.

You kick accurately and frequently for territory, and chase/contest hard to pin teams back. You're organised in defence, and don't overcommit (see the Sarries 'fan' defence) to rucks that aren't there to be won. You press hard and quickly as a collective defensive line, but don't commit to one-up tackles until necessary. You retain 100% of your first-phase ball, even if it isn't flashy and attacking (e.g. front/middle lineout ball, then catch and drive/box-kick).

This gameplay relies on fit players to make lots of intelligent, individual decisions and read the game well. The same tactics beat a good Aussie team last time out. I don't think that alone is enough for this tour, but with so little time together as a squad it's almost impossible to coach properly cohesive, attacking rugby to beat the best in the world.

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
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DocJock said:
basherX said:
I'm quite concerned that we have the right players but the wrong coaching team
That hits the nail on the head.
Presumably a different coaching team wouldn't have selected so many Welsh players? So the team selected is directly linked to the coaching team.

I think the inclusion of so many out of form Welsh players, due to the adoption of old out of date predictable Welsh six nations tactics, will be the downfall of this series.

England and Scotland are both playing exciting rugby at the moment. This old school rugby dominated by selection of underperforming Welsh players won't work in NZ.

Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 25th April 15:05

C70R

17,596 posts

103 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
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El stovey said:
DocJock said:
basherX said:
I'm quite concerned that we have the right players but the wrong coaching team
That hits the nail on the head.
Presumably a different coaching team wouldn't have selected so many Welsh players? So the team selected is directly linked to the coaching team.

I think the inclusion of so many out of form Welsh players, due to the adoption of old out of date predictable Welsh six nations tactics, will be the downfall of this series.

England and Scotland are both playing exciting rugby at the moment. This old school rugby dominated by selection of underperforming Welsh players won't work in NZ.

Edited by El stovey on Tuesday 25th April 15:05
That's a lovely narrative, but you're wrong.

The type of free-flowing rugby that you're talking about is amazing to watch. However, for Scotland it hasn't necessarily translated into great performances - under Cotter they have lost almost as many as they've won, and his win rate is not miles away from the much-maligned Andy Robinson. Against structured defences (as we saw against England), the gameplan falls apart unless you've got the best players in the world on each others' wavelengths.
NZ have the best defence in the world bar none, and we haven't got the time to make a bunch of players who don't know each other well play fast and loose for 80min.

As for the idea that England are playing "exciting rugby", I think you're being very charitable there. England play a majority super-structured game that relies on pack dominance, strong set piece (their most common lineout play is a driving maul) and the tight carrying ability of the back 5 forwards. They might have some flashy backs who can run in tries when the pack are on top, but their gameplan is anything but expansive. If they had a better box-kicker at 9, you would almost certainly see them using the kick/chase technique more often.

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
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C70R said:
That's a lovely narrative, but you're wrong.

The type of free-flowing rugby that you're talking about is amazing to watch. However, for Scotland it hasn't necessarily translated into great performances - under Cotter they have lost almost as many as they've won, and his win rate is not miles away from the much-maligned Andy Robinson. Against structured defences (as we saw against England), the gameplan falls apart unless you've got the best players in the world
Yet despite these lack of "great performances" Scotland have beaten Wales in the six nations, finished above them in the tournament and have a higher world ranking.

Why then would a Welsh coach select a load of failing Welsh players and play a failing Welsh strategy? How can the lions win with that?

ninja-lewis

4,226 posts

189 months

Tuesday 25th April 2017
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El stovey said:
C70R said:
That's a lovely narrative, but you're wrong.

The type of free-flowing rugby that you're talking about is amazing to watch. However, for Scotland it hasn't necessarily translated into great performances - under Cotter they have lost almost as many as they've won, and his win rate is not miles away from the much-maligned Andy Robinson. Against structured defences (as we saw against England), the gameplan falls apart unless you've got the best players in the world
Yet despite these lack of "great performances" Scotland have beaten Wales in the six nations, finished above them in the tournament and have a higher world ranking.

Why then would a Welsh coach select a load of failing Welsh players and play a failing Welsh strategy? How can the lions win with that?
I would hardly say the Scots gameplan fell apart because of structured defence - Fraser Brown's idiocy, injuries to key players and England ruthlessly exploiting the gap between the centres off first ball, yes, but not defence. After all the Scots still put 3 tries past England.

It's a real concern that we're relying so heavily on a back line that has scored very few tries in recent times.

C70R

17,596 posts

103 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
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ninja-lewis said:
El stovey said:
C70R said:
That's a lovely narrative, but you're wrong.

The type of free-flowing rugby that you're talking about is amazing to watch. However, for Scotland it hasn't necessarily translated into great performances - under Cotter they have lost almost as many as they've won, and his win rate is not miles away from the much-maligned Andy Robinson. Against structured defences (as we saw against England), the gameplan falls apart unless you've got the best players in the world
Yet despite these lack of "great performances" Scotland have beaten Wales in the six nations, finished above them in the tournament and have a higher world ranking.

Why then would a Welsh coach select a load of failing Welsh players and play a failing Welsh strategy? How can the lions win with that?
I would hardly say the Scots gameplan fell apart because of structured defence - Fraser Brown's idiocy, injuries to key players and England ruthlessly exploiting the gap between the centres off first ball, yes, but not defence. After all the Scots still put 3 tries past England.

It's a real concern that we're relying so heavily on a back line that has scored very few tries in recent times.
How many points/tries did Scotland score before the game was out of sight (and the England defence switched off)? I'll give you a clue - it was one solitary try. England went out to a 40-7 lead within a couple of mins of the second half starting, and went into cruise for 15-20min (before scoring ANOTHER three tries).

The 'strategy' that the coaching team plays will be dictated by the best 15/23 players, many of whom won't come from the Welsh contingent. Your anti-Welsh drum shows up an innate lack of appreciation of the game - the 'Gatland' style is almost identical to that played by the Irish and Sarries, but drawing from an inferior talent pool in recent years.

If you look at a likely test axis of Murray-Sexton-Farrell-Joseph and think that it's going to be all bosh, then there's not much point continuing the conversation.

London424

12,826 posts

174 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
quotequote all
C70R said:
ninja-lewis said:
El stovey said:
C70R said:
That's a lovely narrative, but you're wrong.

The type of free-flowing rugby that you're talking about is amazing to watch. However, for Scotland it hasn't necessarily translated into great performances - under Cotter they have lost almost as many as they've won, and his win rate is not miles away from the much-maligned Andy Robinson. Against structured defences (as we saw against England), the gameplan falls apart unless you've got the best players in the world
Yet despite these lack of "great performances" Scotland have beaten Wales in the six nations, finished above them in the tournament and have a higher world ranking.

Why then would a Welsh coach select a load of failing Welsh players and play a failing Welsh strategy? How can the lions win with that?
I would hardly say the Scots gameplan fell apart because of structured defence - Fraser Brown's idiocy, injuries to key players and England ruthlessly exploiting the gap between the centres off first ball, yes, but not defence. After all the Scots still put 3 tries past England.

It's a real concern that we're relying so heavily on a back line that has scored very few tries in recent times.
How many points/tries did Scotland score before the game was out of sight (and the England defence switched off)? I'll give you a clue - it was one solitary try. England went out to a 40-7 lead within a couple of mins of the second half starting, and went into cruise for 15-20min (before scoring ANOTHER three tries).

The 'strategy' that the coaching team plays will be dictated by the best 15/23 players, many of whom won't come from the Welsh contingent. Your anti-Welsh drum shows up an innate lack of appreciation of the game - the 'Gatland' style is almost identical to that played by the Irish and Sarries, but drawing from an inferior talent pool in recent years.

If you look at a likely test axis of Murray-Sexton-Farrell-Joseph and think that it's going to be all bosh, then there's not much point continuing the conversation.
I wish I had your faith, but I'm thinking there are going to be at least 5 Welsh players in the starting 15 let alone the matchday squad!

C70R

17,596 posts

103 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
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I'd be very surprised at that. I'd say 2-3 would be reasonable in the starting 15 (Warburton, North, maybe Williams/Wyn-Jones), and perhaps 2 on the bench (Webb, Williams). And that wouldn't be an unreasonable contribution (5/23).

Who else do you see him shoehorning in without massive uproar? Picking them as tourists isn't really hard to believe, but I'd be stunned if they contribute more than that to the test 23.

phil_cardiff

7,041 posts

207 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
quotequote all
C70R said:
I'd be very surprised at that. I'd say 2-3 would be reasonable in the starting 15 (Warburton, North, maybe Williams/Wyn-Jones), and perhaps 2 on the bench (Webb, Williams). And that wouldn't be an unreasonable contribution (5/23).

Who else do you see him shoehorning in without massive uproar? Picking them as tourists isn't really hard to believe, but I'd be stunned if they contribute more than that to the test 23.
Ken Owens has a shot at the match day 23, but other than that we'll have a lot of dirt trackers.

London424

12,826 posts

174 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
quotequote all
C70R said:
I'd be very surprised at that. I'd say 2-3 would be reasonable in the starting 15 (Warburton, North, maybe Williams/Wyn-Jones), and perhaps 2 on the bench (Webb, Williams). And that wouldn't be an unreasonable contribution (5/23).

Who else do you see him shoehorning in without massive uproar? Picking them as tourists isn't really hard to believe, but I'd be stunned if they contribute more than that to the test 23.
All of this comes down to schedule and how many make it fitness wise, but I wouldn't be surprised if the following made the 15 (not that I'd pick them!)

AWJ, Warburton, Tipuric, North, 1/2p with a possibility of Williams and Davies as well.

TheGreatSoprendo

5,286 posts

248 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
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El Stovey, did a Welshman once shag your missus or have you just got a really irrational hatred of daffoldils?

C70R

17,596 posts

103 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
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Possibly - but I feel like a combination of Best (starter) and George (finisher) is probably our strongest.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
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TheGreatSoprendo said:
El Stovey, did a Welshman once shag your missus or have you just got a really irrational hatred of daffoldils?
I think the Welsh are great, I've frequently supported them over the years. I even supported the huge Welsh contingent last lions as they were playing great.

It's totally different this tour though. I hope the lions do well and the Welsh members, but I think there are far to many out of form Welsh players in the squad. I think it will be detrimental to the lions chances.

Kermit power

28,634 posts

212 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
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TheGreatSoprendo said:
CardinalFang said:
Where's the uncapped player? Seem to remember Greenwood & possibly Robinson in the past. Is it Sinckler?
Sinkler has been capped by England and the misconception that the Lions always pick an uncapped player isn't true.
I thought it was the BaaBaas who always picked an uncapped player?

Kermit power

28,634 posts

212 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
quotequote all
I'm inclined to think that Scotland lost out because they've been the Exeter of international teams in the last year or two. With a couple of notable exceptions, they don't really have many truly outstanding players, but seem to be playing as more than the sum of their parts as a team.

irocfan

40,152 posts

189 months

Wednesday 26th April 2017
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Kermit power said:
I thought it was the BaaBaas who always picked an uncapped player?
thumbup indeedio