2017 Lions Tour

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TheGreatSoprendo

5,286 posts

248 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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Kermit power said:
I'm inclined to think that Scotland lost out because they've been the Exeter of international teams in the last year or two. With a couple of notable exceptions, they don't really have many truly outstanding players, but seem to be playing as more than the sum of their parts as a team.
Spot on!

TheGreatSoprendo

5,286 posts

248 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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El stovey said:
I hope the lions do well and the Welsh members, but I think there are far to many out of form Welsh players in the squad.
Like who? I'll give you Jonathan Davies who's probably lucky that the competition isn't very strong at centre, but I'm struggling to think who else fits your description?

London424

12,826 posts

174 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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TheGreatSoprendo said:
El stovey said:
I hope the lions do well and the Welsh members, but I think there are far to many out of form Welsh players in the squad.
Like who? I'll give you Jonathan Davies who's probably lucky that the competition isn't very strong at centre, but I'm struggling to think who else fits your description?
I thought 1/2p, AWJ and Toby F were quite lucky.

C70R

17,596 posts

103 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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London424 said:
TheGreatSoprendo said:
El stovey said:
I hope the lions do well and the Welsh members, but I think there are far to many out of form Welsh players in the squad.
Like who? I'll give you Jonathan Davies who's probably lucky that the competition isn't very strong at centre, but I'm struggling to think who else fits your description?
I thought 1/2p, AWJ and Toby F were quite lucky.
Agree on 1/2p, but the alternatives weren't great:
  • Kearney is injured, Zebo has forgotten how to play rugby
  • Hogg is touring, Scotland's alternatives are rubbish
  • Mike Brown is a solid 15, but a void of creativity
If you are taking a fixed number of 15s then Halfers gets in on merit over the above.

Disagree completely about AWJ and Faletau. Faletau is one of the best 8s in the world on his day, and has been immense in an awful Bath team since coming back from injury. AWJ was heroic in a losing cause in the 6N, and puts his body on the line more than any other lock on the plane.

London424

12,826 posts

174 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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C70R said:
London424 said:
TheGreatSoprendo said:
El stovey said:
I hope the lions do well and the Welsh members, but I think there are far to many out of form Welsh players in the squad.
Like who? I'll give you Jonathan Davies who's probably lucky that the competition isn't very strong at centre, but I'm struggling to think who else fits your description?
I thought 1/2p, AWJ and Toby F were quite lucky.
Agree on 1/2p, but the alternatives weren't great:
  • Kearney is injured, Zebo has forgotten how to play rugby
  • Hogg is touring, Scotland's alternatives are rubbish
  • Mike Brown is a solid 15, but a void of creativity
If you are taking a fixed number of 15s then Halfers gets in on merit over the above.

Disagree completely about AWJ and Faletau. Faletau is one of the best 8s in the world on his day, and has been immense in an awful Bath team since coming back from injury. AWJ was heroic in a losing cause in the 6N, and puts his body on the line more than any other lock on the plane.
AWJ was very lucky. Putting your body on the line is the bare minimum you expect! Launchberry is currently better and you could even make an argument about the Grays being ahead of AWJ.

Faletau has/was one of the best, but how do you make a judgement when he's been injured that much? Missed basically the last year of international competition. So he's been picked on name and prior performance, hence lucky to make it.

TheGreatSoprendo

5,286 posts

248 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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London424 said:
Faletau has/was one of the best, but how do you make a judgement when he's been injured that much? Missed basically the last year of international competition.
Apart from last summer's tour of NZ, one of the Autumn tests and 2 of the 6N matches, obviously!

C70R

17,596 posts

103 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
quotequote all
TheGreatSoprendo said:
London424 said:
Faletau has/was one of the best, but how do you make a judgement when he's been injured that much? Missed basically the last year of international competition.
Apart from last summer's tour of NZ, one of the Autumn tests and 2 of the 6N matches, obviously!
Let's not allow fact (or understanding of the game) to cloud judgement here...

Neither Grey made a case for themselves by playing particularly well in the 6N.
While I think it's universally understood that Launchbury was supremely unlucky to miss out, it wasn't AWJ that kept him off the plane - Lawes is the man who took his spot. AWJ can call a lineout, and will probably be doing so for the midweek team (or possibly alongside Maro/Lawes in the test team if Kruis isn't 100%).
Launchbury and Lawes are interchangeable in the respect that they work hard, but cannot lead the set-piece - Lawes versatility might well have been what clinched it between two players in excellent form.

London424

12,826 posts

174 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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C70R said:
TheGreatSoprendo said:
London424 said:
Faletau has/was one of the best, but how do you make a judgement when he's been injured that much? Missed basically the last year of international competition.
Apart from last summer's tour of NZ, one of the Autumn tests and 2 of the 6N matches, obviously!
Let's not allow fact (or understanding of the game) to cloud judgement here...

Neither Grey made a case for themselves by playing particularly well in the 6N.
While I think it's universally understood that Launchbury was supremely unlucky to miss out, it wasn't AWJ that kept him off the plane - Lawes is the man who took his spot. AWJ can call a lineout, and will probably be doing so for the midweek team (or possibly alongside Maro/Lawes in the test team if Kruis isn't 100%).
Launchbury and Lawes are interchangeable in the respect that they work hard, but cannot lead the set-piece - Lawes versatility might well have been what clinched it between two players in excellent form.
Just my opinion, no need to get so personal and defensive. You asked a question, I answered.

Toby F has barely played in the last 9 months, and certainly not at a level where you'd put him anywhere near a 'world class' tag. I'm not sure why that is controversial.

And just FYI for the facts, they got gubbed in the NZ tour, he came off the bench in 1 autumn international and in the 6N he got sub appearances in the 53rd, 62nd, 66th, and 53rd minutes.

And I really don't think Lawes and Launch are interchangeable. Lawes can play in the back row if needed and scrums there even when playing Lock for England. AWJ and Launch are much more interchangeable.

hornetrider

63,161 posts

204 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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Lots of moaning orcs on this thread, its getting tiresome.

TheGreatSoprendo

5,286 posts

248 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
quotequote all
TheGreatSoprendo said:
London424 said:
Faletau has/was one of the best, but how do you make a judgement when he's been injured that much? Missed basically the last year of international competition.
Apart from last summer's tour of NZ, one of the Autumn tests and 2 of the 6N matches, obviously!
And presumably you'd therefore exclude Billy V using the same logic. In which case we'd be touring without the two 8's who are head and shoulders above the rest!

TheGreatSoprendo

5,286 posts

248 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
quotequote all
C70R said:
While I think it's universally understood that Launchbury was supremely unlucky to miss out, it wasn't AWJ that kept him off the plane - Lawes is the man who took his spot.
Absolutely right. AWJ was always a shoe in for a 2nd row spot, Lawes and Henderson less so.

London424

12,826 posts

174 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
quotequote all
TheGreatSoprendo said:
TheGreatSoprendo said:
London424 said:
Faletau has/was one of the best, but how do you make a judgement when he's been injured that much? Missed basically the last year of international competition.
Apart from last summer's tour of NZ, one of the Autumn tests and 2 of the 6N matches, obviously!
And presumably you'd therefore exclude Billy V using the same logic. In which case we'd be touring without the two 8's who are head and shoulders above the rest!
Well the difference is that Billy went to Oz and helped sweep them. Then played all the Autumn internationals bar 1, then made a sub appearance and a start at the end of the 6N. Hardly the same as coming off the bench for 20 minutes for the last 8 months.

Kermit power

28,634 posts

212 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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hornetrider said:
Lots of moaning orcs on this thread, its getting tiresome.
How are you arriving at that viewpoint? Other than people commenting on how unlucky Launchbury has been (and I doubt they're all English, given how true it is), most people seem to be commenting on how apparently hard done by the Scots have been by the selection of questionably performing Welshmen.

Then again, you're giving your prejudices away with the Orc bit so I suppose it's not too surprising.

DocJock

8,341 posts

239 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
quotequote all
C70R said:
Let's not allow fact (or understanding of the game) to cloud judgement here...

Neither Grey made a case for themselves by playing particularly well in the 6N.
While I think it's universally understood that Launchbury was supremely unlucky to miss out, it wasn't AWJ that kept him off the plane - Lawes is the man who took his spot. AWJ can call a lineout, and will probably be doing so for the midweek team (or possibly alongside Maro/Lawes in the test team if Kruis isn't 100%).
Launchbury and Lawes are interchangeable in the respect that they work hard, but cannot lead the set-piece - Lawes versatility might well have been what clinched it between two players in excellent form.
That's not the first time you've made similar comment on this thread. It implies your knowledge and understanding of the game is better than other posters' when you have no evidence to back that up.

Your opinion is no more or less valid than anyone else.

ps, it's 'Gray'.

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
quotequote all
DocJock said:
C70R said:
Let's not allow fact (or understanding of the game) to cloud judgement here...

Neither Grey made a case for themselves by playing particularly well in the 6N.
While I think it's universally understood that Launchbury was supremely unlucky to miss out, it wasn't AWJ that kept him off the plane - Lawes is the man who took his spot. AWJ can call a lineout, and will probably be doing so for the midweek team (or possibly alongside Maro/Lawes in the test team if Kruis isn't 100%).
Launchbury and Lawes are interchangeable in the respect that they work hard, but cannot lead the set-piece - Lawes versatility might well have been what clinched it between two players in excellent form.
That's not the first time you've made similar comment on this thread. It implies your knowledge and understanding of the game is better than other posters' when you have no evidence to back that up.

Your opinion is no more or less valid than anyone else.

ps, it's 'Gray'.
I noticed that too. I think one of the 'you don't understand rugby like me' comments was tossed my way also. hehe

To me, (with my lack of understanding of the game) despite being an awesome rugby player, it seems unfair that a Welsh selector has picked 12 of his team to tour and only picked 2 from Scotland who are ranked above Wales and beat Wales in the 6 nations and finished above them. The poster above questions some individual Scottish 6N performances but they beat Wales. Wales were woeful. If selection was based on 6N wales might at best have 5-6 lions.

I know this nepotism happens sometimes, especially when there are many 50/50 selections to be made but, struggling Wales have done very well with lions places from a Welsh coach and Welsh staff and it isn't due to form or performance, it's due to nepotism.

Great if you're a Welsh fan I suppose. Hopefully in 2021 when Eddie Jones hopefully coaches the team in South Africa, selections will be a bit fairer.

DocJock

8,341 posts

239 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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Well I'm Scottish (who'd have guessed? wink ) but I don't think our representation is that unfair.

Of the Welsh players in the squad, which would you replace with a Scot?

Jonathan Davies? Huw Jones might have had a shout, but he's injured.
AWJ ? Jonny Gray didn't exactly do him over in the Welsh match and he was poor against France and England.
Justin Tipuric? I've already said Hamish Watson was his equal imo, but not significantly better so I understand WG picking a player he knows well.
George North? Maitland or Visser instead? Nah.
Liam Williams? Best wing in the squad imo, plus he is very good at full back.
Dan Biggar? Finn Russell is too inconsistent, not the best defensively, and DB understands the Gatland gameplan.
Rhys Webb? Greig Laidlaw offers less in every department bar place kicking.

I'll stop now... biggrin

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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Hi doc. (Are you a real doc?)

This is what I said a few pages ago. Obviously these aren't direct swaps.. . .

For Scotland, Jonny Gray and Finn Russell should both be in the squad.

Welsh players who shouldn't be going include Biggar, Davies, Halfpenny. North and Warburton. (Based on form)

Although I agree now that Warburton was a bit harsh at the time. hehe

DocJock

8,341 posts

239 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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El stovey said:
Hi doc. (Are you a real doc?)
Used to be one of sorts...

I think one of the best things abut Loins tours is the arguing over who should or shouldn't be in the squad, followed by who should or shouldn't be in the test squads...

anonymous-user

53 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
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It's a punishing schedule. Perhaps we can also argue about who should be replacing injured players too?

C70R

17,596 posts

103 months

Thursday 27th April 2017
quotequote all
DocJock said:
Well I'm Scottish (who'd have guessed? wink ) but I don't think our representation is that unfair.

Of the Welsh players in the squad, which would you replace with a Scot?

Jonathan Davies? Huw Jones might have had a shout, but he's injured.
AWJ ? Jonny Gray didn't exactly do him over in the Welsh match and he was poor against France and England.
Justin Tipuric? I've already said Hamish Watson was his equal imo, but not significantly better so I understand WG picking a player he knows well.
George North? Maitland or Visser instead? Nah.
Liam Williams? Best wing in the squad imo, plus he is very good at full back.
Dan Biggar? Finn Russell is too inconsistent, not the best defensively, and DB understands the Gatland gameplan.
Rhys Webb? Greig Laidlaw offers less in every department bar place kicking.

I'll stop now... biggrin
This is an excellent, and unbiased view, unclouded by emotion.

Yes, it's valid to question a couple of out-of-form Welsh inclusions. Yes, it's fair to say that 2 inclusions might be underselling Scotland's quality a little.
However, to call one the cause of the other would suggest the poster hasn't the faintest idea about the game.