2017 Lions Tour
Discussion
Kermit power said:
most people seem to be commenting on how apparently hard done by the Scots have been by the selection of questionably performing Welshmen.
El stovey said:
I noticed that too. I think one of the 'you don't understand rugby like me' comments was tossed my way also.
To me, (with my lack of understanding of the game) despite being an awesome rugby player, it seems unfair that a Welsh selector has picked 12 of his team to tour and only picked 2 from Scotland who are ranked above Wales and beat Wales in the 6 nations and finished above them. The poster above questions some individual Scottish 6N performances but they beat Wales. Wales were woeful. If selection was based on 6N wales might at best have 5-6 lions.
I know this nepotism happens sometimes, especially when there are many 50/50 selections to be made but, struggling Wales have done very well with lions places from a Welsh coach and Welsh staff and it isn't due to form or performance, it's due to nepotism.
Great if you're a Welsh fan I suppose. Hopefully in 2021 when Eddie Jones hopefully coaches the team in South Africa, selections will be a bit fairer.
See my post above. If you were watching the game regularly and closely, you'd realise that your two observations are almost entirely unrelated. The 50/50 selections that any Welsh players benefited from were almost certainly not involving Scotsmen.To me, (with my lack of understanding of the game) despite being an awesome rugby player, it seems unfair that a Welsh selector has picked 12 of his team to tour and only picked 2 from Scotland who are ranked above Wales and beat Wales in the 6 nations and finished above them. The poster above questions some individual Scottish 6N performances but they beat Wales. Wales were woeful. If selection was based on 6N wales might at best have 5-6 lions.
I know this nepotism happens sometimes, especially when there are many 50/50 selections to be made but, struggling Wales have done very well with lions places from a Welsh coach and Welsh staff and it isn't due to form or performance, it's due to nepotism.
Great if you're a Welsh fan I suppose. Hopefully in 2021 when Eddie Jones hopefully coaches the team in South Africa, selections will be a bit fairer.
London424 said:
Just my opinion, no need to get so personal and defensive. You asked a question, I answered.
Toby F has barely played in the last 9 months, and certainly not at a level where you'd put him anywhere near a 'world class' tag. I'm not sure why that is controversial.
And just FYI for the facts, they got gubbed in the NZ tour, he came off the bench in 1 autumn international and in the 6N he got sub appearances in the 53rd, 62nd, 66th, and 53rd minutes.
And I really don't think Lawes and Launch are interchangeable. Lawes can play in the back row if needed and scrums there even when playing Lock for England. AWJ and Launch are much more interchangeable.
The "facts" bit was saying that he'd been out of the game for 9mths, when it is patently untrue. He's featured in 12/20 games for Bath this season, FFS. Toby F has barely played in the last 9 months, and certainly not at a level where you'd put him anywhere near a 'world class' tag. I'm not sure why that is controversial.
And just FYI for the facts, they got gubbed in the NZ tour, he came off the bench in 1 autumn international and in the 6N he got sub appearances in the 53rd, 62nd, 66th, and 53rd minutes.
And I really don't think Lawes and Launch are interchangeable. Lawes can play in the back row if needed and scrums there even when playing Lock for England. AWJ and Launch are much more interchangeable.
If you re-read, I said Launchbury and Lawes are interchangeable as locks, and that it was Lawes' ability to play flanker which may have got him the nod. AWJ and Launchbury probably wouldn't have been considered in the same conversation, particularly if Borthwick (master lineout operator) was picking the pack.
C70R said:
This is an excellent, and unbiased view, unclouded by emotion.
Yes, it's valid to question a couple of out-of-form Welsh inclusions. Yes, it's fair to say that 2 inclusions might be underselling Scotland's quality a little.
However, to call one the cause of the other would suggest the poster hasn't the faintest idea about the game.
Nobody has said one is the cause of the other.Yes, it's valid to question a couple of out-of-form Welsh inclusions. Yes, it's fair to say that 2 inclusions might be underselling Scotland's quality a little.
However, to call one the cause of the other would suggest the poster hasn't the faintest idea about the game.
El stovey said:
Hi doc. (Are you a real doc?)
This is what I said a few pages ago. Obviously these aren't direct swaps
For Scotland, Jonny Gray and Finn Russell should both be in the squad.
Welsh players who shouldn't be going include Biggar, Davies, Halfpenny. North and Warburton. (Based on form)
Although I agree now that Warburton was a bit harsh at the time.
This is what I said a few pages ago. Obviously these aren't direct swaps
For Scotland, Jonny Gray and Finn Russell should both be in the squad.
Welsh players who shouldn't be going include Biggar, Davies, Halfpenny. North and Warburton. (Based on form)
Although I agree now that Warburton was a bit harsh at the time.
El stovey said:
it seems unfair that a Welsh selector has picked 12 of his team to tour and only picked 2 from Scotland ... ranked above Wales and beat Wales ... but they beat Wales ... nepotism ... 50/50 selections
I've paraphrased, but I can't see how I'd read anything other than "Welsh picked ahead of Scots" from the above. Please explain what else that means...As for the point about "Welsh staff", again you show a lack of knowledge/memory. Gregor Townsend was Gatland's first-choice backs/attack coach, but he TURNED IT DOWN to focus on the Scottish job. After failing to get the guy with the most entertaining attack in the 6N (as many people have decided), why would Gatland not revert to someone he knows well (in the absence of another standout candidate)?
Neil Jenkins is renowned as one of the best kicking coaches in the business (let alone the home nations), so not taking him would have been foolish.
C70R said:
El stovey said:
it seems unfair that a Welsh selector has picked 12 of his team to tour and only picked 2 from Scotland ... ranked above Wales and beat Wales ... but they beat Wales ... nepotism ... 50/50 selections
I've paraphrased, but I can't see how I'd read anything other than "Welsh picked ahead of Scots" from the above. Please explain what else that means...As for the point about "Welsh staff", again you show a lack of knowledge/memory. Gregor Townsend was Gatland's first-choice backs/attack coach, but he TURNED IT DOWN to focus on the Scottish job. After failing to get the guy with the most entertaining attack in the 6N (as many people have decided), why would Gatland not revert to someone he knows well (in the absence of another standout candidate)?
Neil Jenkins is renowned as one of the best kicking coaches in the business (let alone the home nations), so not taking him would have been foolish.
Vern Cotter was offered by the SRU (as either a coach or simply providing insight during selections) but Gatland turned the offer down.
Even Dr James Robson, veteran of 6 Lions tours, isn't going this time.
So this article in The Times is completely inaccurate, then?
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/townsend-wanted...
On Verne, it's not hugely shocking that a guy with a 50% win rate isn't, who is known for being hard to work with, wasn't taken...
As for the James Robson thing, I love him but the guy has been on the past SIX TOURS, and isn't a young man any more. Should he just keep going for evermore?
The guy who replaces him (Eanna Falvey) has an incredible track record in and out of rugby, and was on the 2013 tour under Robson. It's certainly got nothing to do with favouritism, no matter how you look at it...
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/townsend-wanted...
On Verne, it's not hugely shocking that a guy with a 50% win rate isn't, who is known for being hard to work with, wasn't taken...
As for the James Robson thing, I love him but the guy has been on the past SIX TOURS, and isn't a young man any more. Should he just keep going for evermore?
The guy who replaces him (Eanna Falvey) has an incredible track record in and out of rugby, and was on the 2013 tour under Robson. It's certainly got nothing to do with favouritism, no matter how you look at it...
Edited by C70R on Thursday 27th April 17:34
C70R said:
Kermit power said:
most people seem to be commenting on how apparently hard done by the Scots have been by the selection of questionably performing Welshmen.
See my post above. If you were watching the game regularly and closely, you'd realise that your two observations are almost entirely unrelated. The 50/50 selections that any Welsh players benefited from were almost certainly not involving Scotsmen.As for me, between coaching mini rugby and being a premiership season ticket holder, I'm not sure my wife would let me get away with watching much more on top of this than the televised internationals and any Quins away matches on BT Sport!
It's pretty academic anyway, given that in the post you've quoted, I was making no claim of any sort about anything other than what other posters seemed to be talking about, and in another post I'd also made clear my thoughts on why more Scots hadn't been selected.
C70R said:
On Verne, it's not hugely shocking that a guy with a 50% win rate isn't, who is known for being hard to work with, wasn't taken...
OK, that's a fair point. Cotter only has a 52.78% win rate with Scotland, so not really someone you'd want to have in the Lions coaching squad, eh?Now then... What's your view on the inclusion of Warren Gatland, the guy with the 50.53% win rate coaching Wales?
One of the interesting (depending on how geeky you are...) stats stuck together on another rugby site, was Kyle Sinckler's 6 nations cameos that add up to just over a full match
95mins, 1 kick, 6 passes, 17 carries, 81m, 4 clean breaks, 14 tackles
I can see why he's in the squad as an impact player
95mins, 1 kick, 6 passes, 17 carries, 81m, 4 clean breaks, 14 tackles
I can see why he's in the squad as an impact player
Kermit power said:
C70R said:
On Verne, it's not hugely shocking that a guy with a 50% win rate isn't, who is known for being hard to work with, wasn't taken...
OK, that's a fair point. Cotter only has a 52.78% win rate with Scotland, so not really someone you'd want to have in the Lions coaching squad, eh?Now then... What's your view on the inclusion of Warren Gatland, the guy with the 50.53% win rate coaching Wales?
DocJock said:
Just to lighten the mood, how about we try to pick a Not-Lions XV from the guys who missed out on the tour?
I'll start...
15.
14. Rokodoguni
13.
12.
11. Solomona
10.
9
1.
2. Hartley
3.
4. Launchbury
5 Gray (Jonny).
6.
7.
8.
15.I'll start...
15.
14. Rokodoguni
13.
12.
11. Solomona
10.
9
1.
2. Hartley
3.
4. Launchbury
5 Gray (Jonny).
6.
7.
8.
14. Rokodoguni
13.
12.
11. Solomona
10.
9 Care
1. Jenkins
2. Hartley
3.
4. Launchbury
5 Gray (Jonny).
6.
7. Watson
8. Heaslip
A NZ rugby show have picked their non-lions team. Nice to see some scots not missing out on the missing out squad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xuly3SBlXw0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xuly3SBlXw0
Kermit power said:
C70R said:
On Verne, it's not hugely shocking that a guy with a 50% win rate isn't, who is known for being hard to work with, wasn't taken...
OK, that's a fair point. Cotter only has a 52.78% win rate with Scotland, so not really someone you'd want to have in the Lions coaching squad, eh?Now then... What's your view on the inclusion of Warren Gatland, the guy with the 50.53% win rate coaching Wales?
For the record, if he didn't have a Lions series win behind him (and multiple Grand Slams), Gatland wouldn't have been close this time out. I'd have much preferred Jones lead the tour, but he wasn't in the frame (for right or wrong).
Trying to 'trip me up' and score points with anti-Welsh statistics (about a coach we weren't even discussing) is a bit tragic in truth.
ttfun said:
A NZ rugby show have picked their non-lions team. Nice to see some scots not missing out on the missing out squad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xuly3SBlXw0
Interesting discussion that, thanks for sharing.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xuly3SBlXw0
I think I have finally got the desire to whine over the lack of Scots out of my system and am starting to look forward to the tour now. I may even do a Lions special version of our TackleTyres... with a 15% discount if Stuart Hogg starts at 15! I worry my money will be safe though.
https://tackletyre.myshopify.com
https://tackletyre.myshopify.com
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