General rugby thread

[irocfan]

Kermit power said:

Depending on when contracts end, I suspect as well that much pressure will be placed by the RFU on Sarries to consider offloading the likes of Maitland, Figallo, Skelton and Tompkins before they go anywhere near their England stars.

just out of curiosity how did Tompkins get picked for Wales whilst playing in England (under the 60-cap threshold)?

[SunsetZed]

irocfan said:

Kermit power said:

Depending on when contracts end, I suspect as well that much pressure will be placed by the RFU on Sarries to consider offloading the likes of Maitland, Figallo, Skelton and Tompkins before they go anywhere near their England stars.

just out of curiosity how did Tompkins get picked for Wales whilst playing in England (under the 60-cap threshold)?

If a player is uncapped when he signs with a club outside Wales, he is still eligible until the end of that contract. It's the same reason they were able to pick Rees-Zammit.

[jimKRFC]

Jon, Kermit, Iroc,

Sarries could have got under the cap for this season, but they needed to act straight away. They knew they were over the cap before the season started. If, at that point, they had paid players off it wouldn't have counted towards the cap.

Players pay only counts once they have played a game. So they have some players (Figallo for example) who hasnt played, so he could be paid off and it won't affect the cap.

Sarries problem is that Way denied any wrong doing and did nothing to sort it quickly. Leaving them up the creek now as the other clubs/owners are sick of Sarries.

Personally feel sorry for the fans, but not a bit of sympathy for the players (they knew what was going on) or the club.

[irocfan]

bad to worse for Sarries today

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/51149035


I've also seen that the French clubs are now starting to make noises

[Welshbeef]

Given the play offs in May19 should those results be reversed - though who would then be 1/2/3?

What a mess and Sarries have it all on their shoulders to cause it.

[Smollet]

Saracens are to be relegated at the end of the season the governing body has announced.

[768]

Wow.

[irocfan]

well obviously the bung Tigers gave to premier rugby worked Should be 2 up 2 down this year.

I am curious though since there have been rumours that quite a few other clubs have been cheating the cap too (<ahem> bath <ahem>) it's just that Sarries were the most egregious. Could be an interesting season in the championship for 20/21

[JonChalk]

jimKRFC said:

Sarries could have got under the cap for this season, but they needed to act straight away.

..and they didn't. What did they seriously think was going to happen?

This is going to make a bit of a mess of teams, player market, next years' ECPR and maybe even the England squad.

[mr pg]

JonChalk said:

..and they didn't. What did they seriously think was going to happen?

This is going to make a bit of a mess of teams, player market, next years' ECPR and maybe even the England squad.

They couldn't. By the time the original sanction was applied the season was under way, and players couldn't then move to other clubs as they would already have spent up to the cap. They had no chance of doing anything for this season.

[jimKRFC]

mr pg said:

They couldn't. By the time the original sanction was applied the season was under way, and players couldn't then move to other clubs as they would already have spent up to the cap. They had no chance of doing anything for this season.

PRL finished the investigation up in March, so there was time to make changes over the summer, but Wray continued to claim there was nothing wrong.

To make things worse for Sarries to be promoted from the Championship to the Premiership you need to have complied to the salary cap for the previous two seasons. So could be two seasons down.

Also, the new CEO appears to have been acting as an agent against RFU rules according to Andy Goode so might be in trouble as well..

[schmalex]

I dislike Sarries, but do have a lot of sympathy for them. The salary cap, like many things in Union from the age ranges through to the professional game, is outdated and irrelevant in the modern professional age.

[Kermit power]

schmalex said:

I dislike Sarries, but do have a lot of sympathy for them. The salary cap, like many things in Union from the age ranges through to the professional game, is outdated and irrelevant in the modern professional age.

I disagree. The salary cap is currently hugely necessary specifically to cope with the professional era. Without it, there's just too much risk of the whole thing imploding...

One club gets a multi millionaire owner who buys success, then a billionaire comes along, buys a different club, buys success for them, the multi millionaire now gets bored of his toy because it's not winning any more and buggers off, leaving a once proud club to collapse, etc etc.

[The Mad Monk]

Where do we go from here?

Leicester are saved from relegation, because no matter what happens, Saracens are going down. Is that right?

Quins are playing Sarries next Sunday, but the game will mean nothing to Sarries because they are going down regardless. Is that right?

To say the least this is really a strange situation.

[df76]

The Mad Monk said:

Where do we go from here?

Leicester are saved from relegation, because no matter what happens, Saracens are going down. Is that right?

Quins are playing Sarries next Sunday, but the game will mean nothing to Sarries because they are going down regardless. Is that right?

To say the least this is really a strange situation.

Yes, it’ll be strange. They will lose a lot of their stars to six nations camps from now on, and wouldn’t expect them to play again until well after that. They should be doing some serious squad rotation (which still won’t be a weak side.. the problem) and blood more inexperienced squad members.

I could see the whole coaching / team management being changed as well in the medium term.

[Smollet]

The Mad Monk said:

Where do we go from here?

Leicester are saved from relegation, because no matter what happens, Saracens are going down. Is that right?

Quins are playing Sarries next Sunday, but the game will mean nothing to Sarries because they are going down regardless. Is that right?

To say the least this is really a strange situation.

Saracens players may still have some professional pride. They, in theory, could make the playoffs, win the title and then get relegated. I presume Saracens woukd be eligible for a parachute payment. Interesting go times.

[iwantagta]

Kermit power said:

schmalex said:

I dislike Sarries, but do have a lot of sympathy for them. The salary cap, like many things in Union from the age ranges through to the professional game, is outdated and irrelevant in the modern professional age.

I disagree. The salary cap is currently hugely necessary specifically to cope with the professional era. Without it, there's just too much risk of the whole thing imploding...

I agree with Kermit. It would soon become an arms race with spending and salaries getting ridiculous.
Currently anyone can, just about, beat anyone in the prem (bar sarries).

I do think some reform is needed - more credit for home grown players etc maybe 3 100% salary cap exemptions for academy players who become internationals etc. Drive behaviours around youth development.

[Kermit power]

Does anyone actually know what the minimum standards criteria are for promotion to the Premiership? I read a comment by someone saying that they thought any club seeking promotion had to have adhered to the Salary Cap rules for the previous two seasons, which would mean Sarries couldn't come back up until 2021/22.

You also have to wonder if it's a completely foregone conclusion that they'll bounce straight back up anyway? I know the likes of Newcastle, Irish and Wuss generally do, but I think that's at least in part because their squad - having been relegated on results rather than for cheating - can't so easily jump ship to elsewhere anyway. With Sarries' stars, there's going to be a mass exodus, surely? Just how much of a core will remain to take them back up?

[JonChalk]

iwantagta said:

Kermit power said:

schmalex said:

I dislike Sarries, but do have a lot of sympathy for them. The salary cap, like many things in Union from the age ranges through to the professional game, is outdated and irrelevant in the modern professional age.

I disagree. The salary cap is currently hugely necessary specifically to cope with the professional era. Without it, there's just too much risk of the whole thing imploding...

I agree with Kermit. It would soon become an arms race with spending and salaries getting ridiculous.
Currently anyone can, just about, beat anyone in the prem (bar sarries).

I do think some reform is needed - more credit for home grown players etc maybe 3 100% salary cap exemptions for academy players who become internationals etc. Drive behaviours around youth development.

It also plays a part in ensuring that players don't become overpaid, entitled prima donnas like professional footballers. people who think that the gushing, self-serving over-praise of their every last breath means they are above the law, both on the pitch and off it.

Not the prime reason for a salary cap, but a very useful (necessary?) side benefit.

[df76]

Kermit power said:

Does anyone actually know what the minimum standards criteria are for promotion to the Premiership? I read a comment by someone saying that they thought any club seeking promotion had to have adhered to the Salary Cap rules for the previous two seasons, which would mean Sarries couldn't come back up until 2021/22.

You also have to wonder if it's a completely foregone conclusion that they'll bounce straight back up anyway? I know the likes of Newcastle, Irish and Wuss generally do, but I think that's at least in part because their squad - having been relegated on results rather than for cheating - can't so easily jump ship to elsewhere anyway. With Sarries' stars, there's going to be a mass exodus, surely? Just how much of a core will remain to take them back up?

Some big issues to deal with aren’t there. Tbh, the club will do well to survive in its current form. What’s the average attendance / do they have a stable financial position without huge investors?

All club supporters need to annoyed / embarrassed about this and be vocal, can’t be allowed to happen again.