Dementia caused by contact in sport.

Dementia caused by contact in sport.

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Discussion

Teddy Lop

8,294 posts

66 months

Wednesday 9th December 2020
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MC Bodge said:
It would be interesting to know how various sports compare for this issue.

Eg. Boxing, Muay Thai, wrestling, judo, MMA, rugby, Aussie Rules, football, lacrosse(?), Ice Hockey, motorsport like motocross or banger racing even.

I suppose it all depends upon the magnitude and frequency of the impacts, as well as the length of careers. Different people will have heads that are more or less resilient and playing positions will also have different exposure.
I was listening to someone on Joe Rogan some time ago so cant remember who, on this subject. I love a bit of boxing myself, I get the impression that as knowledge improves there's going to be some changes.


Bradgate

2,819 posts

146 months

Wednesday 9th December 2020
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R56Cooper said:
You're right in that he is suing the organisation for a game that he chose to play but I think you have misunderstood the point.

Saying "he chose to play" (which is essentially quoting the legal maxim "volenti non fit injuria" (to one who volunteers, no harm is done)) will only apply to the extent that the participant had full knowledge of the nature and extent of the risk of harm.

In other words, if the player could reasonably have known the risk of harm but chose to play anyway, they will have no claim.

The key question is whether the governing bodies should reasonably have been aware of the risk of head injuries and should have done more to make players aware, or to introduce measures to mitigate the effects.

The standard by which they will be judged is the state of knowledge at the particular time that the injury was suffered. In this respect, Dr. Bennet Omalu reported on the link between early onset dementia and probable Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE) as long ago as 2005. In 2011, former NFL players settled their claims for $1bn.

Despite this, the Head Injury Assessment only became mandatory in 2015. In the meantime, players have continued to increase in size and power and training and playing intensity has also increased.

I can't see how anyone can suggest that players like Steve Thompson were fully informed of the risks they were taking.

I think there is clearly a very serious point to be addressed here, not just for rugby but also any other contact sports. The fact that these guys are approaching early middle age with dementia is just not on.
Agreed. Thompson, and every other professional rugby player was obviously very well aware of the risks to his body from the repeated collisions inherent in the game. As a front-row forward, he would have expected to retire with cauliflower ears and chronic neck & back pain, just as a footballer would expect to need knee replacements in his 40s.

What he wasn’t aware of and didn’t sign up for was the risk of premature dementia due to repeated head trauma.

Spidersleg

676 posts

82 months

Wednesday 9th December 2020
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R56Cooper said:
You're right in that he is suing the organisation for a game that he chose to play but I think you have misunderstood the point.

Saying "he chose to play" (which is essentially quoting the legal maxim "volenti non fit injuria" (to one who volunteers, no harm is done)) will only apply to the extent that the participant had full knowledge of the nature and extent of the risk of harm.

In other words, if the player could reasonably have known the risk of harm but chose to play anyway, they will have no claim.

The key question is whether the governing bodies should reasonably have been aware of the risk of head injuries and should have done more to make players aware, or to introduce measures to mitigate the effects.

The standard by which they will be judged is the state of knowledge at the particular time that the injury was suffered. In this respect, Dr. Bennet Omalu reported on the link between early onset dementia and probable Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE) as long ago as 2005. In 2011, former NFL players settled their claims for $1bn.

Despite this, the Head Injury Assessment only became mandatory in 2015. In the meantime, players have continued to increase in size and power and training and playing intensity has also increased.

I can't see how anyone can suggest that players like Steve Thompson were fully informed of the risks they were taking.

I think there is clearly a very serious point to be addressed here, not just for rugby but also any other contact sports. The fact that these guys are approaching early middle age with dementia is just not on.
Thank you for that post. Interesting.

JeffreyD

6,155 posts

39 months

Thursday 10th December 2020
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Bradgate said:
What he wasn’t aware of and didn’t sign up for was the risk of premature dementia due to repeated head trauma.
I suppose the case will hinge on whether the authorities knew about that aspect of the risk. Or could be expected to have known.


ninja-lewis

4,226 posts

189 months

Thursday 10th December 2020
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JeffreyD said:
Bradgate said:
What he wasn’t aware of and didn’t sign up for was the risk of premature dementia due to repeated head trauma.
I suppose the case will hinge on whether the authorities knew about that aspect of the risk. Or could be expected to have known.
"[Steve Thompson's lawyer says a meeting in 1975 of the medical committee of the International Rugby Board (IRB), the forerunner of World Rugby, noted “dementia pugilistica” as a significant concern for rugby. In 1980, the IRB stipulated a three-week mandatory break after concussion suffered during a match, but this was curtailed after the game went open in 1995."

I'd hazard a guess that if the IRB was aware of the risk then so were the major unions.

https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/dementia-rug...

Only R56Cooper's post has mentioned training so far. They're not just talking about the concussive big hits we see in matches; it's also the seemingly innocuous small knocks in rucks and ragdolled heads hitting the ground in tackles. Steve Thompson describes seeing stars while being made to do a hundred scrums in a single training session because the coaches didn't like their scrum performance at the weekend.

Centurion07

10,381 posts

246 months

Tuesday 15th December 2020
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As regards ice hockey there's a longheld opinion/theory that, certainly in THAT sport, it wasn't just the direct blows to the head from punches and getting hit into the boards but also the numerous whiplash injuries from being checked.

The point was made that while most people assume you need a direct blow to the head to cause issues, what actually causes problems is the brain hitting the inside of the skull which obviously occurs with a sharp snapping motion of the neck.

IIRC it was in the documentary Ice Guardians which, even if ice hockey isn't your sport, is an amazing film with a HUGELY emotional ending.


Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Tuesday 15th December 2020
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What is the solution? I am genuinely confused and not only because I did a few years of contact sports and got knocked out a few times.

Centurion07

10,381 posts

246 months

Tuesday 15th December 2020
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The only true solution is to remove all contact.

You can wear the biggest helmets with the best padding but ultimately the only way you can stop the brain rattling around inside the skull is to stop the cause, which is the contact itself.

rjfp1962

Original Poster:

7,611 posts

72 months

Tuesday 15th December 2020
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I'm not in any way anti-boxing - used to watch load of it decades ago when you didn't have pay-to-view!
This is such a big-money sport, but how long can it continue when after all, your intension is to knock the other guy out?!

JeffreyD

6,155 posts

39 months

Tuesday 15th December 2020
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Kawasicki said:
What is the solution? I am genuinely confused and not only because I did a few years of contact sports and got knocked out a few times.
You can't eleinate. But you can reduce and manage.

Minimize in training. The lack of tackle practice might actually make the game better as defence is just too good these days. Look at the impacts in scrummaging and clearing out rucks

Also, if you are aware that a certain training/playing method massively increases the chance of early onset dementia tell all those involved before they do it.


daveco

4,122 posts

206 months

Thursday 17th December 2020
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There needs to be a discussion about steroid use in rugby, and the long term harm it can cause to the brain. Steroid use is rife even at amateur level.

https://www.mcleanhospital.org/news/brain-imaging-...

Lee Jones Jnr

1,724 posts

169 months

Wednesday 27th January 2021
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I boxed for a living until my last fight in May 2019.
First time I retired was with back problems, second time was cancer, third time was two bleeds on the brain, (fourth time by choice).
I’d imagine that I may be a reasonable candidate for dementia pugilistica in the future.
I’m a nice guy so I liked to put people away with body shots rather than give them dementia.
I was watching a documentary about exactly this the other day whilst I was doing my run.

Jaykaye

38 posts

37 months

Monday 1st February 2021
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I took some serious knockouts when i was younger , woke up in hospital, nurses office etc. I was aso forced to box when I was younger. I'm in my forties now and my memory is shot, I am on some longterm strong painkillers though so it might have a bit to do with my memory. Grandad died from dementia related complications about ten years ago. Horrific!

Indoraptor

205 posts

38 months

Sunday 7th February 2021
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I took a fair few heavy whacks in my teens and twenties, for various contact sports, I think I saw sense and did things that didn’t cause any more head knocks, early enough though ( hopefully). The latency of the injury to consequences always makes it difficult to judge accurately though.

Indoraptor

205 posts

38 months

Sunday 7th February 2021
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Kawasicki said:
What is the solution? I am genuinely confused and not only because I did a few years of contact sports and got knocked out a few times.
If your head takes a whack, your brain squishes about, and you risk a brain injury. Your brain and cranial cavity is designed to stop occasional accidental knocks, but not deliberate continued pounding. The only sure fire way to reduce the damage, is to ban all contact, unfortunately that’s impossible in just about every contact sport I can think of. It’s a case of, wrap everyone in cotton wool, and make the sport’s correspondingly soft and un interesting, or do what you can to minimise the damage by mitigating the head knocks with unreasonable / impractical protection ( big helmets / zorbing balls / whatever ). When push comes to shove, you can’t have competitive contact sports, without some risk of head injury.

Mastodon2

13,818 posts

164 months

Sunday 7th February 2021
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Deathmole said:
Some of the wrestling stuff from the mid to late 1990's makes for grim viewing now......

One match I recall, between Mankind and The Rock, where the former takes about a dozen unprotected whacks to the head with a folding chair whilst handcuffed.

Struggling to find footage of it on YouTube, as it happens.
That match was Mankind vs the Rock in the "I Quit" match at the 1999 Royal Rumble. In the "Beyond the Mat" documentary, which is on Netflix at the moment, you see the run up with Mick Foley and his family and the aftermath. Foley had a hell of a cut on his scalp and not a deliberate bladed cut either. As he talks to his family, his pupils are dilated and he is clearly concussed. After he was handcuffed, he took maybe 11 or 12 chair shots to the head. Wrestling is scripted, but you can't fake a way to take those kind of hits. Sure, they use thin, lightweight chairs and try to land the shot on the flattest part to spread the impact but it can only do so much.

Following the match, Mick talked about perhaps needing to dial back the really brutal stuff, for the sake of being healthy to look after his kids. I think he must have followed through with that as while he still did some risky spots, nothing topped his Hell in a Cell Match with Undertaker or the I Quit match with the Rock.

In recent years, Mick has said that he thinks perhaps he took it too far when he is struggling to get his words out. Undoubtedly, the hits add up over the years and you pay for it. WWE doesn't allow chair shots to the head and is now very careful about what they allow to happen, particularly with respect to head and neck impacts. Wrestlers get fined or taken off the card if they blade these days too. Better for the performers, but few would say the product hasn't suffered, although the WWE ending up in the state it is in today is a huge topic in itself and has many elements, the dilution of the shock factor and violence being only one of them.

Regarding head injuries in rugby, I know of a guy who in his early 20s, took a blow to the head on the field and was knocked out, then started having fits as he came round, then more fits the evening after the match. No history of epilepsy or other conditions that cause seizures in him or his family. In the end, there didn't appear to be any lasting damage that was evident to the doctors that treated him in hospital, other than to say that taking blows to the head wasn't advised. He was barred from driving by the DVLA for a while, which no doubt had an impact on his job-hunting, given he was fresh out of uni at the time and relegated to searching for jobs that were commutable by train. I suppose when you're young, you think you can get away with these things, but as more and more athletes are finding out, sadly there is a price to be paid in later life for many.

rjfp1962

Original Poster:

7,611 posts

72 months

Thursday 19th August 2021
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Ex Man Utd footballer Denis Law now diagnosed with dementia..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58268041

Hugo Stiglitz

37,010 posts

210 months

Thursday 19th August 2021
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So Rugby will end up becoming touch rugby.

Surely professionals know/knew repeated hits to the head with concussion etc won't end well? I.e. they had a choice. It's not something new, you repeatedly hit your head, it turns into degeneration.


I've had numerous concussion in my life. I know in my 50s+ ill face memory etc issues as a result sadly.

MC Bodge

21,552 posts

174 months

Thursday 19th August 2021
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rjfp1962 said:
Ex Man Utd footballer Denis Law now diagnosed with dementia..

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/58268041
to put some perspective on it, there are many non-footballers diagnosed with dementia at 81 too. Many people don't even reach 81.

MC Bodge

21,552 posts

174 months

Thursday 19th August 2021
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Hugo Stiglitz said:
I've had numerous concussion in my life. I know in my 50s+ ill face memory etc issues as a result sadly.
I'm not sure that will be a certainty.

-I've been concussed a number of times too. I expect that many people have. It may well be may repeated, more minor/low impact, "sub-concussion" impacts that can cause a problem. Life is fatal, unfortunately.