B&I Lions tour 2021

[irocfan]

Given that we're at halfway point in the 6N and it's a Lions year I thought a Lions thread might be appropriate...

[TheGreatSoprendo]

Good idea!

A couple of initial thoughts from me. Firstly, in my view, there are very few nailed on test starters at the moment - far fewer than the run up to any Lions tour I can remember. Secondly, I suspect there will be a far more even split of representatives from the 4 nations than there has been for a long time - likely to be in the region of 9 or 10 from each.

[anonymous-user]

I guess before we get to team picks, the first two questions are whether it will happen (seems likely it will, but few things are certain at the moment) and if so where? A very quick scan says the options are SA, Aus or at home.

I can’t really imagine a Lions test played in an empty stadium. But I suppose it might happen.

[Boom78]

Gwyn Jones made a good point on yesterday’s ScrumV that as there will be no provincial games in this lions series the 10 saracens players only had this 6N to put their hands up for test selection as they won’t play any other games. Based on that I’d be worried for those 10

[Tyre Smoke]

BlackWidow13 said:

I guess before we get to team picks, the first two questions are whether it will happen (seems likely it will, but few things are certain at the moment) and if so where? A very quick scan says the options are SA, Aus or at home.

I can’t really imagine a Lions test played in an empty stadium. But I suppose it might happen.

Why Australia? And a Lions tour err, at home?

[irocfan]

Between RWC19 vs NZ and now I think that there are LOT of English players who've actively played themselves out of a potential team.

In fact I don't think it's too harsh to say that if England had the lowest representation it'd not be too great a shock

[zzrman]

There was a lot of talk before the 6N started that Farrell wanted the captaincy but I would have thought that that´s up in smoke. Likewise others were talking up Itoje but we can´t have a captain who´s coughing up 5 or 6 penalties a game.

At this rate AWJ just has to keep standing.

But what do others think about the captaincy.

Edited by zzrman on Monday 1st March 15:24

[anonymous-user]

irocfan said:

Between RWC19 vs NZ and now I think that there are LOT of English players who've actively played themselves out of a potential team.

In fact I don't think it's too harsh to say that if England had the lowest representation it'd not be too great a shock

Me neither. However, the unavoidable truth is that England are (annoyingly if you support them) one of the most variable teams in the world. They can look pedestrian against Italy for 60 minutes and play NZ off the park. I genuinely don’t think any of the other four home nations can deliver that unenviable range of performance.

Put another way, against the SH sides you can be pretty sure what the outcome will be if Scotland, Wales or Ireland are playing. They play to a much more consistent level. Like it or not, despite being able to play pretty badly, England have the best chance out of the home nations of beating any one of the SH sides.

TL;DR: England players seem to be able to rise to a big game occasion strangely well.

[DocJock]

Talking Lions, Sky have just put back up the great 'Living With The Lions' documentary about the 1997 tour.

[irocfan]

BlackWidow13 said:

Me neither. However, the unavoidable truth is that England are (annoyingly if you support them) one of the most variable teams in the world. They can look pedestrian against Italy for 60 minutes and play NZ off the park. I genuinely don’t think any of the other four home nations can deliver that unenviable range of performance.

Put another way, against the SH sides you can be pretty sure what the outcome will be if Scotland, Wales or Ireland are playing. They play to a much more consistent level. Like it or not, despite being able to play pretty badly, England have the best chance out of the home nations of beating any one of the SH sides.

TL;DR: England players seem to be able to rise to a big game occasion strangely well.

I'd go as far as to say we're virtually French in our ability to play st for no discernible reason and then suddenly came NZ...

[Madness60]

Not sure it is legal to have a Lions thread without a XV or XXIII every 10 posts???

So to stay safe here is my Lions XXIII assuming all fit and on form

Vunipola
George
Furlong
Itoje
AWJ
Curry
Underhill
Faletau
Cooney (controversial but 9 is a weak position)
Russell
Watson
Manu
Ringrose
May
Hogg

Sutherland, Cowan_Dickie, Ryan, Watson, least rubbish No9 probably Welsh, Farrell, Williams

[Uncle John]

So who’ll be captain then?

Pretty sure it’ll be AWJ, but I’d love it to be Itoje, just not the Itoje that gives a load of penalties away.....

[Madness60]

Uncle John said:

So who’ll be captain then?

Pretty sure it’ll be AWJ, but I’d love it to be Itoje, just not the Itoje that gives a load of penalties away.....

AWJ if he can keep his agreement with the Devil that he continues to play so well despite being older than many mountain ranges.

[irocfan]

May or Van de Merwe/Adams? I do like JM but I think the English malaise has even affected him. George North has got versatility on his side being a large lump centre and a world class wing...

[Madness60]

irocfan said:

May or Van de Merwe/Adams? I do like JM but I think the English malaise has even affected him. George North has got versatility on his side being a large lump centre and a world class wing...

Not a fan of project players like Van de Merwe and he's only had a couple of games, if you want a big fast lump the North has that role although I don't think he's the player he used to be.

May has a higher peak than someone like Adams who is a consistent 7.5/8 out of 10 but won't be world class which May can be. However he would have to be on form.

Way more important to get a decent 9 and a 12 as I doubt Manu will be fit.

[TheGreatSoprendo]

Here's my pick as things stand. All up for debate because, as I said earlier, there are very few nailed on here.

Healy
Cowan Dickie
Furlong
Itoje
AWJ (c)
Curry
Tipuric
Faletau
Williams
Sexton/Ford
Watson
Henshaw
North
VDM
Hogg

Vunipola, George, Sinkler, Watson, Cooney, Farrell, Williams

Outside half is the most troublesome position to my mind.

[anonymous-user]

I like Hogg but I think he makes too many unforced errors or bad decisions at this level. I’d start Watson at 15.

Similarly, Finn Russell. Can be brilliant; can be a fking liability. Great for the Ba-bas. Less so for the Lions.

May is definitely not on form at the moment. Manu, if fit, won’t have enough recent international playing time. North, I think, is past his best but more importantly SA will target his head and that means he will be on a plane home early doors.

The back line is not easy.

[TheGreatSoprendo]

BlackWidow13 said:

I like Hogg but I think he makes too many unforced errors or bad decisions at this level. I’d start Watson at 15.

Similarly, Finn Russell. Can be brilliant; can be a fking liability. Great for the Ba-bas. Less so for the Lions.

May is definitely not on form at the moment. Manu, if fit, won’t have enough recent international playing time. North, I think, is past his best but more importantly SA will target his head and that means he will be on a plane home early doors.

The back line is not easy.

Disagree re: Hogg but agree on Russell. I'd be surprised if Gatland rates Russell, also (or at least rates him highly enough to be his test starter). I'm surprised anyone thinks Manu is even an option at the moment to be honest. North had a quiet season by his standards last season but he's been outstanding for the Ospreys this season and has done a brilliant job at 13 for Wales. Nobody else offers his combination of physicality and pace at 13. Not sure about SA targetting his head. You simply can't do that anymore and if they are daft enough to try it, it'll almost certainly be red card time.

[Evanivitch]

TheGreatSoprendo said:

Here's my pick as things stand. All up for debate because, as I said earlier, there are very few nailed on here.

Healy
Cowan Dickie
Furlong
Itoje
AWJ (c)
Curry
Tipuric
Faletau
Williams
Sexton/Ford
Watson
Henshaw
North
VDM
Hogg

Vunipola, George, Sinkler, Watson, Cooney, Farrell, Williams

Outside half is the most troublesome position to my mind.

That's a lot of Englishmen that have under performed in the 6N so far. With a lack of rugby ahead for the Saracens and no regional games, when will they be match sharp??

[TheGreatSoprendo]

Evanivitch said:

That's a lot of Englishmen that have under performed in the 6N so far. With a lack of rugby ahead for the Saracens and no regional games, when will they be match sharp??

I agree that's a consideration, only Itoje falls into that category in the starting 15, though? I could be persuaded by Ryan or Gray with Itoje on the bench. Talking of which, I'm surprised nobody spotted my deliberate error of not selecting a 2nd row on the bench!