Discussion
AndyB_7 said:
Does anyone in here have a good understanding of lie angles? I'm getting my head in a right muddle!
Some of you may remember my post a while back about how much distance I've lost in the last few months (and being convinced that it was to do with cutting across the ball too much). After watching a few of my older swing clips from when my distances were consistently where they should have been, I noticed that A) I was stood a fair bit further back from the ball, and B) my hands were much higher at setup, meaning the club head was sat much 'flatter' on the ground.
So I went to the range last night and set up a little bit further back, but mainly focused on having my hands much higher and flattening the club head/lifting the heel a bit. The result was that starting the backswing felt a bit odd, but on clean hits I was hitting iron shots back to where I used to, anywhere between 30-50 yards further than I have been over the last few months. Whilst it is now starting to make sense that the lie angle is potentially what has been making a difference, I am surprised it could make this much difference..
So here's where I'm getting confused.. I changed irons earlier in the year which have 1.5 degrees lower lie angle than my previous irons (old 7 iron is 63 degrees and my new 7 iron is 61.5 degrees) - does that mean my new irons are more 'flat' or more 'upright'? And if I'm raising my hands at setup and lifting the heel of the club, is that me creating a more flat or upright lie angle?
I've read that an upright lie angle should suit players who are taller and have a steeper swing (both of which apply to me), but it feels like it's almost the opposite, unless of course I'm misunderstanding it all.
TL;DR, I think I've fixed my swing issue after 1 range session and am now confused, but realistically I'm sure nothing will change on the course
As others have said, you've gone a little flatter. Some of you may remember my post a while back about how much distance I've lost in the last few months (and being convinced that it was to do with cutting across the ball too much). After watching a few of my older swing clips from when my distances were consistently where they should have been, I noticed that A) I was stood a fair bit further back from the ball, and B) my hands were much higher at setup, meaning the club head was sat much 'flatter' on the ground.
So I went to the range last night and set up a little bit further back, but mainly focused on having my hands much higher and flattening the club head/lifting the heel a bit. The result was that starting the backswing felt a bit odd, but on clean hits I was hitting iron shots back to where I used to, anywhere between 30-50 yards further than I have been over the last few months. Whilst it is now starting to make sense that the lie angle is potentially what has been making a difference, I am surprised it could make this much difference..
So here's where I'm getting confused.. I changed irons earlier in the year which have 1.5 degrees lower lie angle than my previous irons (old 7 iron is 63 degrees and my new 7 iron is 61.5 degrees) - does that mean my new irons are more 'flat' or more 'upright'? And if I'm raising my hands at setup and lifting the heel of the club, is that me creating a more flat or upright lie angle?
I've read that an upright lie angle should suit players who are taller and have a steeper swing (both of which apply to me), but it feels like it's almost the opposite, unless of course I'm misunderstanding it all.
TL;DR, I think I've fixed my swing issue after 1 range session and am now confused, but realistically I'm sure nothing will change on the course
Edited by AndyB_7 on Monday 8th December 11:34
BUT
All golfers RAISE the handle at impact (ie club gets more upright), it's just what happens in a normal swing.
The club SHOULD look like the toe is in the air a bit at setup to account for this.
A really good sense check when you're at the range is to use a sharpie to put a line on the golf ball and align the ball so the line is perfectly vertical, facing the clubhead.
When you hit the ball, look at the mark left behind on the clubface. Is it vertical? ie at 90 degrees to the grooves? That will tell you whether your lie angle is correct with that club.
(Lie boards are the "old" way of doing it but now most up to date teaching pros don't use them, they are not a good indication of correct lie angle)
bodhi said:
Nothing to add, other than this is making me think of the Club Pro Guy "story" where he got an endorsement deal with US Kids Golf, and didn't read the fine print which meant he had to use the clubs in tournaments 
Bodhi, being a fellow blade playing sicko, you must have tried someone else's clubs at some point, and thought, crikey, these are easy to hit!?
Wills2 said:
Going from 63 to 61.5 gives you a flatter lie angle.
Peterpetrole said:
As others have said, you've gone a little flatter.
BUT
All golfers RAISE the handle at impact (ie club gets more upright), it's just what happens in a normal swing.
The club SHOULD look like the toe is in the air a bit at setup to account for this.
A really good sense check when you're at the range is to use a sharpie to put a line on the golf ball and align the ball so the line is perfectly vertical, facing the clubhead.
When you hit the ball, look at the mark left behind on the clubface. Is it vertical? ie at 90 degrees to the grooves? That will tell you whether your lie angle is correct with that club.
(Lie boards are the "old" way of doing it but now most up to date teaching pros don't use them, they are not a good indication of correct lie angle)
Thanks guys. I think it's just a poor choice of terminology that's confusing me. For example when you've said if you raise your hands the club gets more upright, are you talking about the lie angle becoming more upright or the club/shaft itself? My understanding is that the more 'upright' the lie angle is, the 'flatter' the shaft is (thinking of it in terms of 90 degrees is perfectly upright and 180 degrees would be completely flat)? BUT
All golfers RAISE the handle at impact (ie club gets more upright), it's just what happens in a normal swing.
The club SHOULD look like the toe is in the air a bit at setup to account for this.
A really good sense check when you're at the range is to use a sharpie to put a line on the golf ball and align the ball so the line is perfectly vertical, facing the clubhead.
When you hit the ball, look at the mark left behind on the clubface. Is it vertical? ie at 90 degrees to the grooves? That will tell you whether your lie angle is correct with that club.
(Lie boards are the "old" way of doing it but now most up to date teaching pros don't use them, they are not a good indication of correct lie angle)
DuncanM said:
Your new irons are flatter by 1.5deg, although 61.5 isn't terribly flat for a 7i, flatter is typically not good for taller players.
Tbh, I'm surprised you've preserved with new clubs, if they've had such a detrimental effect to your game? The best recommendation would be to take them to your pro, and have a fitting session with them.
Good that you've figured it out though
To be honest I think when I first got the irons I was kind of making it work and didn't notice too much difference, but now I'm wondering how long that period actually was and how I didn't immediately think it was the clubs! Tbh, I'm surprised you've preserved with new clubs, if they've had such a detrimental effect to your game? The best recommendation would be to take them to your pro, and have a fitting session with them.
Good that you've figured it out though
Anyway, I've booked in for a fitting at the weekend to hopefully get this sorted and get the lie angles adjusted if needs be.
DuncanM said:
bodhi said:
Nothing to add, other than this is making me think of the Club Pro Guy "story" where he got an endorsement deal with US Kids Golf, and didn't read the fine print which meant he had to use the clubs in tournaments
Bodhi, being a fellow blade playing sicko, you must have tried someone else's clubs at some point, and thought, crikey, these are easy to hit!?
Unfortunately in my experience that's all I can do with them - high and fighting off a hook. The huge offset and lightweight shafts don't work for me at all.
Only rentals I've used that I really liked and thought I could play more often were a set of Titleist 718 AP2s in California - although shooting 79 and taking the money off a 3 handicapper helped
I have often thought of a set for winter use, as that's the only time I find blades hugely unforgiving is when conditions are wet. "Thanks guys. I think it's just a poor choice of terminology that's confusing me. For example when you've said if you raise your hands the club gets more upright, are you talking about the lie angle becoming more upright or the club/shaft itself? My understanding is that the more 'upright' the lie angle is, the 'flatter' the shaft is (thinking of it in terms of 90 degrees is perfectly upright and 180 degrees would be completely flat)? "
"More upright" means the shaft is more vertical, not flatter. You're thinking of how you bend the clubs to correct that.
In other words if the heel of the club is dragging (shots going left) then the club needs bending flatter to compensate.
Don't get too wrapped up in high or low hands at setup, because you'll find if you video your swing at impact your hands will have lifted up in both cases.
High or low hands at setup are more likely to change your path (in to out etc.) than change where your club sole hits the turf.
bodhi said:
Oh sure - every time I go abroad and use rentals and get given some Super Shovels, like Callaway Rogues or the like. AfterI finish recoiling in horror at the look of the things, I always notice how easy they are to hit - even a shonky jet lagged swing usually results in a nice high and straight shot.
Unfortunately in my experience that's all I can do with them - high and fighting off a hook. The huge offset and lightweight shafts don't work for me at all.
Only rentals I've used that I really liked and thought I could play more often were a set of Titleist 718 AP2s in California - although shooting 79 and taking the money off a 3 handicapper helped I have often thought of a set for winter use, as that's the only time I find blades hugely unforgiving is when conditions are wet.
I don't think I've ever read anything so similar to my own views, as when I'm reading your posts Unfortunately in my experience that's all I can do with them - high and fighting off a hook. The huge offset and lightweight shafts don't work for me at all.
Only rentals I've used that I really liked and thought I could play more often were a set of Titleist 718 AP2s in California - although shooting 79 and taking the money off a 3 handicapper helped
I have often thought of a set for winter use, as that's the only time I find blades hugely unforgiving is when conditions are wet. 
Maybe when I'm 60, I'll buy some bazookers.
Hobo said:
Give this a watch and try the drills mentioned (towel needed), as it about sequencing of the downswing and weight transfer;
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR8LoTAorMA
Thanks very much for the link - my initial impression is that I very much like the way Liam teaches. I think I will try to get up to see him in the spring (I note that he's not currently taking new clients on Skillest so he much be pretty popular!)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AR8LoTAorMA
Have watched a number of his videos now and am embracing the towel drill, and the subtle variations he uses for different clients. I could see simply from videoing a couple of attempts that it was doing good things for my shaft plane in the downswing, and the weight transfer feel is hugely noticeable - although right now I'm having a timing issue with pushing back up again. Still, initial thoughts are this could be a good thing, so thanks again!
AndyB_7 said:
Wills2 said:
Going from 63 to 61.5 gives you a flatter lie angle.
Thanks guys. I think it's just a poor choice of terminology that's confusing me. For example when you've said if you raise your hands the club gets more upright, are you talking about the lie angle becoming more upright or the club/shaft itself? My understanding is that the more 'upright' the lie angle is, the 'flatter' the shaft is (thinking of it in terms of 90 degrees is perfectly upright and 180 degrees would be completely flat)? Edited by Wills2 on Monday 8th December 19:30
DuncanM said:
I don't think I've ever read anything so similar to my own views, as when I'm reading your posts
Maybe when I'm 60, I'll buy some bazookers.
Blades are where it’s at. It forces you to find the middle of the face, some way, somehow. I tried a friends P790s at the range recently & came away thinking no wonder he always beats me! Maybe when I'm 60, I'll buy some bazookers.
I had to use some callaway XRs(?) in Portugal a few years ago. Similar story, massively high & fought the ball going left the whole way round.
RE the lie angle chat, the sharpie line vertically on the ball will give you the feedback you need.
What’s everyone working on this winter?
kentlad said:
Blades are where it s at. It forces you to find the middle of the face, some way, somehow. I tried a friends P790s at the range recently & came away thinking no wonder he always beats me!
I had to use some callaway XRs(?) in Portugal a few years ago. Similar story, massively high & fought the ball going left the whole way round.
RE the lie angle chat, the sharpie line vertically on the ball will give you the feedback you need.
What s everyone working on this winter?
Yes, the ultimate game improvement clubs I had to use some callaway XRs(?) in Portugal a few years ago. Similar story, massively high & fought the ball going left the whole way round.
RE the lie angle chat, the sharpie line vertically on the ball will give you the feedback you need.
What s everyone working on this winter?
I stand to be corrected, but I believe that s94wht has lowered his HC since moving to blades?
For me, it's the standard I'm willing to judge myself against for now, as I still have enough speed to play them, and they're an absolute joy to use.
DuncanM said:
Yes, the ultimate game improvement clubs
I stand to be corrected, but I believe that s94wht has lowered his HC since moving to blades?
For me, it's the standard I'm willing to judge myself against for now, as I still have enough speed to play them, and they're an absolute joy to use.
One proof of concept is enough. That proves the theory for me!I stand to be corrected, but I believe that s94wht has lowered his HC since moving to blades?
For me, it's the standard I'm willing to judge myself against for now, as I still have enough speed to play them, and they're an absolute joy to use.
Agreed, all the time I can get them in the air, they’re staying! I quite fancy a set of these, if I can get my striking to be a tad more consistent. I had the original FG staff
‘Blades’ and absolutely loved them. Bit of a bargain for under £700 for forged irons…
https://www.affordablegolf.co.uk/products/wilson-s...
kentlad said:
One proof of concept is enough. That proves the theory for me!
Agreed, all the time I can get them in the air, they re staying! I quite fancy a set of these, if I can get my striking to be a tad more consistent. I had the original FG staff
Blades and absolutely loved them. Bit of a bargain for under £700 for forged irons
https://www.affordablegolf.co.uk/products/wilson-s...
Oh my, beyond gorgeous aren't they? Agreed, all the time I can get them in the air, they re staying! I quite fancy a set of these, if I can get my striking to be a tad more consistent. I had the original FG staff
Blades and absolutely loved them. Bit of a bargain for under £700 for forged irons
https://www.affordablegolf.co.uk/products/wilson-s...
What are you currently gaming? I have the FG62, 12 years old now, bought them brand new for £370
DuncanM said:
Yes, the ultimate game improvement clubs
I stand to be corrected, but I believe that s94wht has lowered his HC since moving to blades?
For me, it's the standard I'm willing to judge myself against for now, as I still have enough speed to play them, and they're an absolute joy to use.
Heh! I believe I was 18.9 when I got the blades and I got as low as 8.4, now at 9.0. That's too big a drop to be solely down to the clubs, but I do enjoy using them; it makes you work for it, but it's so much more satisfying knowing the shot is you and not the club. I stand to be corrected, but I believe that s94wht has lowered his HC since moving to blades?
For me, it's the standard I'm willing to judge myself against for now, as I still have enough speed to play them, and they're an absolute joy to use.
The VR Pro is still quite a forgiving blade, I gather, compared to some others, but yes you have to get it right (which I'm not at the moment, hence the rising handicap)
DuncanM said:
Yes, the ultimate game improvement clubs
I stand to be corrected, but I believe that s94wht has lowered his HC since moving to blades?
For me, it's the standard I'm willing to judge myself against for now, as I still have enough speed to play them, and they're an absolute joy to use.
I am with the Blades and hollow body irons are the best way to improve ball striking, I moved to 919 Tours when iwas off 16, got to 9 that year. Played them until moving to PXG Tour irons and 2 sets later wouldn't go away from them I stand to be corrected, but I believe that s94wht has lowered his HC since moving to blades?
For me, it's the standard I'm willing to judge myself against for now, as I still have enough speed to play them, and they're an absolute joy to use.
Yes they hurt a bit on a miss hit, are Far less forgiving, personally I prefer that, I have never had a "jumper" or a "flyer" meaning their dispersion is a lot smaller than a jacked up cavity back. I have seen someone "pure" a cavity back iron and its flown 20yrds further than they expected and the balls gone. I would 99% of the time prefer to be short than unpredictably long
I would say however if you cant get a 4iron in the air, them they are 100% not going to help and are best avoided
If your a half decent ball striker, IMO you will benifit long term from playing a blader or hollow body iron
andy_ran said:
I am with the Blades and hollow body irons are the best way to improve ball striking, I moved to 919 Tours when iwas off 16, got to 9 that year. Played them until moving to PXG Tour irons and 2 sets later wouldn't go away from them
Yes they hurt a bit on a miss hit, are Far less forgiving, personally I prefer that, I have never had a "jumper" or a "flyer" meaning their dispersion is a lot smaller than a jacked up cavity back. I have seen someone "pure" a cavity back iron and its flown 20yrds further than they expected and the balls gone. I would 99% of the time prefer to be short than unpredictably long
I would say however if you cant get a 4iron in the air, them they are 100% not going to help and are best avoided
If your a half decent ball striker, IMO you will benifit long term from playing a blader or hollow body iron
Yes they hurt a bit on a miss hit, are Far less forgiving, personally I prefer that, I have never had a "jumper" or a "flyer" meaning their dispersion is a lot smaller than a jacked up cavity back. I have seen someone "pure" a cavity back iron and its flown 20yrds further than they expected and the balls gone. I would 99% of the time prefer to be short than unpredictably long
I would say however if you cant get a 4iron in the air, them they are 100% not going to help and are best avoided
If your a half decent ball striker, IMO you will benifit long term from playing a blader or hollow body iron
4i is the cut off for many of us I'd expect, I am fine with 5, but the carry difference with 4 is not worth the effort required. Have a 24deg utility coming for Xmas.
DuncanM said:
andy_ran said:
I am with the Blades and hollow body irons are the best way to improve ball striking, I moved to 919 Tours when iwas off 16, got to 9 that year. Played them until moving to PXG Tour irons and 2 sets later wouldn't go away from them
Yes they hurt a bit on a miss hit, are Far less forgiving, personally I prefer that, I have never had a "jumper" or a "flyer" meaning their dispersion is a lot smaller than a jacked up cavity back. I have seen someone "pure" a cavity back iron and its flown 20yrds further than they expected and the balls gone. I would 99% of the time prefer to be short than unpredictably long
I would say however if you cant get a 4iron in the air, them they are 100% not going to help and are best avoided
If your a half decent ball striker, IMO you will benifit long term from playing a blader or hollow body iron
Yes they hurt a bit on a miss hit, are Far less forgiving, personally I prefer that, I have never had a "jumper" or a "flyer" meaning their dispersion is a lot smaller than a jacked up cavity back. I have seen someone "pure" a cavity back iron and its flown 20yrds further than they expected and the balls gone. I would 99% of the time prefer to be short than unpredictably long
I would say however if you cant get a 4iron in the air, them they are 100% not going to help and are best avoided
If your a half decent ball striker, IMO you will benifit long term from playing a blader or hollow body iron
4i is the cut off for many of us I'd expect, I am fine with 5, but the carry difference with 4 is not worth the effort required. Have a 24deg utility coming for Xmas.
s94wht said:
DuncanM said:
Yes, the ultimate game improvement clubs
I stand to be corrected, but I believe that s94wht has lowered his HC since moving to blades?
For me, it's the standard I'm willing to judge myself against for now, as I still have enough speed to play them, and they're an absolute joy to use.
Heh! I believe I was 18.9 when I got the blades and I got as low as 8.4, now at 9.0. That's too big a drop to be solely down to the clubs, but I do enjoy using them; it makes you work for it, but it's so much more satisfying knowing the shot is you and not the club. I stand to be corrected, but I believe that s94wht has lowered his HC since moving to blades?
For me, it's the standard I'm willing to judge myself against for now, as I still have enough speed to play them, and they're an absolute joy to use.
The VR Pro is still quite a forgiving blade, I gather, compared to some others, but yes you have to get it right (which I'm not at the moment, hence the rising handicap)
. Personally, and this may be a bit controversial, I think the blades could be holding you back a touch now. However I do agree with your view that them looking good gives confidence in your game. Wills2 said:
It's the angle of the shaft in relation to the sole of the club, the higher the number the more "upright" it is and the lower the number the "flatter" it is, in terms of you moving your hands higher or lower then higher hands puts the toe down (upright) and lowering puts the toe up (flatter) high hands = toe down, low hands = toe up.
This now makes sense, I was just being an idiot and thinking about it in the wrong way Edited by Wills2 on Monday 8th December 19:30
Hopefully the fitting is worthwhile and I can get back to playing remotely close to my HCP!
AndyB_7 said:
This now makes sense, I was just being an idiot and thinking about it in the wrong way
Hopefully the fitting is worthwhile and I can get back to playing remotely close to my HCP!
Most decent pros can ‘retro’ fit your irons I.e., check and change loft & lie. Hopefully the fitting is worthwhile and I can get back to playing remotely close to my HCP!
Duncan, I play Apex CBs so not the hardest to use, I tested the MBs and honestly, hardly any difference until I got to 6iron & lower, so I took the extra help across the bag! A thin / bad shot still stings!
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