The MMA thread

[Lil' Joe]

Shame really, as Brock really is the definition of a meathead.

OT I've got a couple of quick questions. Yesterday i watched K1 and some bloke got finishd with a kick to the side of the knee; why don't we see this in MMA. Banned?

Also, much as I love PH it's a bit slow to discuss MMA. Any decent website recomendtions? Sherdog is so childish unfortunately I can't take it anymore.

[XitUp]

Lil' Joe said:

Shame really, as Brock really is the definition of a meathead.

OT I've got a couple of quick questions. Yesterday i watched K1 and some bloke got finishd with a kick to the side of the knee; why don't we see this in MMA. Banned?

Also, much as I love PH it's a bit slow to discuss MMA. Any decent website recomendtions? Sherdog is so childish unfortunately I can't take it anymore.

I can't wait for someone to smash Brock and prove that skill > size again.

I don't think it's banned, just it's a tricky spot to hit. Anderson Silva was doing it to Thales Leites.

www.fightlockdown.com

Edited by XitUp on Sunday 26th July 20:14

[tim2100]

XitUp said:

Lil' Joe said:

Shame really, as Brock really is the definition of a meathead.

OT I've got a couple of quick questions. Yesterday i watched K1 and some bloke got finishd with a kick to the side of the knee; why don't we see this in MMA. Banned?

Also, much as I love PH it's a bit slow to discuss MMA. Any decent website recomendtions? Sherdog is so childish unfortunately I can't take it anymore.

I can't wait for someone to smash Brock and prove that skill > size again.

I don't think it's banned, just it's a tricky spot to hit. Anderson Silva was doing it to Thales Leites.

www.fightlockdown.com

Edited by XitUp on Sunday 26th July 20:14

Forrest nearly took Rampages leg out with a kick to the knee.

[Lil' Joe]

I remember but in a ouple of K1 fights the guy literally dropped and could not stand. Unless Rampage is just that tough but these guys were solid too. It's on Greatest K1 knokouts, or something like that.

I'll check that site out. The other place was full of people saying that Lesner, after his 5 fights was the top pound for pound fighter in the world.

FFS

[tim2100]

Lil' Joe said:

I remember but in a ouple of K1 fights the guy literally dropped and could not stand. Unless Rampage is just that tough but these guys were solid too. It's on Greatest K1 knokouts, or something like that.

I'll check that site out. The other place was full of people saying that Lesner, after his 5 fights was the top pound for pound fighter in the world.

FFS

I guess that other site is sherdog?

Sherdog is extremely busy but as yoou say very childish. The site goes into overdrive if somebody suggests that Bisping might be able to fight somebody. Lesnar will never be pound for pound champ as he is so much heavier than anybody else.

[XitUp]

Lil' Joe said:

I remember but in a ouple of K1 fights the guy literally dropped and could not stand. Unless Rampage is just that tough but these guys were solid too. It's on Greatest K1 knokouts, or something like that.

I'll check that site out. The other place was full of people saying that Lesner, after his 5 fights was the top pound for pound fighter in the world.

FFS

1. K-1 guys are a lot better at kicking than MMA guys.
2. K-1 guys don't have to worry about take downs.

LoL@ the idea of someone who wins cos of his size being p4p worthy.

[Lil' Joe]

How did you guess?

It's annoying as Sherdog has all the latest news but the forum is just awful. Every now and then you get some sensible opinions but it's rare.

Re Lesner, the P4P discussions over there are mind boggling. The guy's beaten some nobody to start with, was finished by Mir in under 2 minutes, then beat Heath 'Goths are cool but I'm not' Herring, which also got him a title shot (1 win 1 losss!!?) before beating a 45 year old who was 30lbs underweight! Certainly sounds like the best in the world

I've got Fedor, Torres, Silva and Machida above him in the P4P stakes.

[deevlash]

oi! I post on sherdog! Theres a few really good posters but unfortunately loads of morons. The underground is a better forum for posters but the software is god awful, its nigh on unworkable.

[XitUp]

Lil' Joe said:

I've got Fedor, Torres, Silva and Machida above him in the P4P stakes.

I've got dozens of people above him.

deevlash said:

oi! I post on sherdog! Theres a few really good posters but unfortunately loads of morons. The underground is a better forum for posters but the software is god awful, its nigh on unworkable.

www.fightlockdown.com/forum

[Lil' Joe]

No offence deevlash mate, I know you post there. We've had a few discussions there and here Your one of the only sensible ones though...

[Tokoloshe]

Im one of those who thinks Lesnar deserves a top 5 spot since he has fought some of the better HW's out there and won, as well as set right his 1 loss, the Mir fight would have gone the same way as the 2nd one if the ref hadnt stood them up.

Only people who could beat him IMO are Carwin due to size and knockout power or Fedor (although he hasnt faced great competition in years so would be a tough fight for him).

I cant understand why people think it's just Lesnars size that allows him to win, there's an enormous amount of training, dedication, and skill across many areas of MMA, controlling a 250 pound BJJ black belt with more than twice the experience you have doesnt come from weighing 20 pounds more than him, if you could just be big then anyone could do it. Lesnar has size, strength, and skill, which makes him the most dangerous HW out there currently.

We'll see how the HW division pans out, I see Lesnar cementing his position and eventually getting the number 1 spot, especially since Fedor keeps ducking the UFC for that rubbish M-1 promotion he co-owns.

[tim2100]

Tokoloshe said:

Im one of those who thinks Lesnar deserves a top 5 spot since he has fought some of the better HW's out there and won, as well as set right his 1 loss, the Mir fight would have gone the same way as the 2nd one if the ref hadnt stood them up.

The discussion there is P4P. He is nowhere near top 5 P4P fighter. However who are these better HW's and won? Mir, won 1 lost 1, Herring, has rarely been one of the better HW's, more of a gatekeeper to the top level, and Couture, a ~43 year old LHW who had been out the ring for over a year.

Tokoloshe said:

Only people who could beat him IMO are Carwin due to size and knockout power or Fedor (although he hasnt faced great competition in years so would be a tough fight for him).

Carwin is similar size and strength, Cain would have a good fight with him, possibly a better wrestler than Lesnar. It is quite funny that Fedor hasn't faced great competition in years, what about Arloski? one of the better skilled HW's from UFC. Tim Sylvia? long time dominant UFC HW Champion. Both of these where Top 10 if not Top 5 in most Top HW Lists, and now they where just not that good....

Tokoloshe said:

I cant understand why people think it's just Lesnars size that allows him to win, there's an enormous amount of training, dedication, and skill across many areas of MMA, controlling a 250 pound BJJ black belt with more than twice the experience you have doesnt come from weighing 20 pounds more than him, if you could just be big then anyone could do it. Lesnar has size, strength, and skill, which makes him the most dangerous HW out there currently.

We'll see how the HW division pans out, I see Lesnar cementing his position and eventually getting the number 1 spot, especially since Fedor keeps ducking the UFC for that rubbish M-1 promotion he co-owns.

Lesnars skill is very much in its infancy, it is getting better and better. Unfortunatly the smother position he used with Mir doesn't make a good fight, and this makes him look like he is unskilled.

AFAIK Fedor doesn't co own M1 it is his management, his management will therefore only give him fights that they can plaster their name on. UFC doesn't need their co-promotion. This will stop Fedor signing for UFC. Although hopefully with the demise of Affliction this will pave the way for Fedor, Strikeforce are not big enough to be able to pay Fedor & M1, Dream possibly could pay him, but what fights do they have for him? a couple max.

[Tokoloshe]

tim2100 said:

The discussion there is P4P. He is nowhere near top 5 P4P fighter. However who are these better HW's and won? Mir, won 1 lost 1, Herring, has rarely been one of the better HW's, more of a gatekeeper to the top level, and Couture, a ~43 year old LHW who had been out the ring for over a year.

I was talking specifically of his ranking within the HW division, P4P you are definitely right, he is nowhere near top 5 with the like of Anderson Silva and GSP about.

tim2100 said:

Carwin is similar size and strength, Cain would have a good fight with him, possibly a better wrestler than Lesnar. It is quite funny that Fedor hasn't faced great competition in years, what about Arloski? one of the better skilled HW's from UFC. Tim Sylvia? long time dominant UFC HW Champion. Both of these where Top 10 if not Top 5 in most Top HW Lists, and now they where just not that good....

They were good but faded very quickly, both of them. Arlovski wasnt resigned by the UFC and they were happy to see the back of Silva, bot were good at their respective times but were a very very long way from their best by the time they faced fedor. Neither would have been a top contender in the UFC at this stage, in fact they couldnt even get a UFC contract, whcih says a lot about the competition in affliction. Fedor has fought has beens for ages now, he hasnt been tested against the best in years.

tim2100] said:

Lesnars skill is very much in its infancy, it is getting better and better. Unfortunatly the smother position he used with Mir doesn't make a good fight, and this makes him look like he is unskilled.

AFAIK Fedor doesn't co own M1 it is his management, his management will therefore only give him fights that they can plaster their name on. UFC doesn't need their co-promotion. This will stop Fedor signing for UFC. Although hopefully with the demise of Affliction this will pave the way for Fedor, Strikeforce are not big enough to be able to pay Fedor & M1, Dream possibly could pay him, but what fights do they have for him? a couple max.

I had been reading a few interviews where Fedor says he is a co owner, not sure if this is a recent developement, I'll see if I can find one. As a result M-1 global wont do anything without getting their name involved, and the UFC are far more successful than them and really dont need either Fedor or M-1 at all, there are very few HW's outside of the UFC worth fighting, hence with barnetts positive test Affliction folded. they wanted to put a LHW in there and a couple other smaller fighters, but didnt have options of true HW talent they could turn to like the UFC could.

As for Lesnars skills, the Mir fight was a pretty skilled victory from where I was sat!! His gameplan for Herring was to smother him and it worked, that was one fight. He knocked Couture out, who a couple months before was the top contender for Fedor and had everyones respect, then suddenly became old, small, and useless as soon as Lesnar beat him.

He's been able to outwrestle Herring (who like couture suddenly became a gatekeeper as soon as he lost, whereas before everyone was saying how he would smash Lesnar, had more experience etc), outbox Couture, and beat Mir on the ground, and he keeps working on his weaknesses, if he can beat carwin then there are very few HW's left for him to face, even an in shape Nog would get battered. I cant name 5 HW's that would beat Lesnar, fedor is a possibility, that kickboxer who's name escapes me is another (dreads, not sure where he fights but not UFC), and Carwin is a possibility, though Lesnar matches him with knockout power and wrestliong, as well as size.

[deevlash]

The only people thinking couture ever had a shot against fedor were TUF fans and randy himself. Carwin is about 255lbs, lesnar is still massively bigger than him at around 285 come fight time and Lesnar is a far more decorated wrestler than Carwin ever was, Ive seen nothing from carwin that suggests he can beat lesnar tbh. its going to take someone with great stand up to beat him, coupled with an ability to keep the fight standing in the first place.

[Tokoloshe]

deevlash said:

The only people thinking couture ever had a shot against fedor were TUF fans and randy himself. Carwin is about 255lbs, lesnar is still massively bigger than him at around 285 come fight time and Lesnar is a far more decorated wrestler than Carwin ever was, Ive seen nothing from carwin that suggests he can beat lesnar tbh. its going to take someone with great stand up to beat him, coupled with an ability to keep the fight standing in the first place.

I think Carwins biggest assest is his punching power, though I suppsoe Lesnar has just as much if not more, Carwin just seems to be a more composed striker.

If he can keep it standing he has a chance, toehrwise I agree, he's done for.

That leaves either someone who can keep it standing (and that rules out Congo, Gonzaga, and Cains) or a BJJ black belt that can survive longer than Mir did and put together a submission (Nog would be the only one I wouldve said could, but I dont think he'd survive the initial melee well wnough to find his head, let alone put a submission together).

It leaves us with a "who can beat Lesnar" questionmark, fedor maybe but he has fought guys who arent good enough for the UFC for the past few years, plus there is the cage factor which tripped Cro Cop up something horrible.

[deevlash]

the cage sucks as wrestlers can just dry hump folk up against it. Gonzaga has a great ground game, he's a bjj black belt. Admittedly he's sucked in his last few fights but he's still young and I cant see lesnar getting a ko punch on him, lesnars boxing is pretty horrible although it has improved a bit lately. Somebody who could kick the st out of lesnars legs will have a good chance, without them he's not going to be able to shoot, which is practically his only real weapon. A lesnar fight basically goes: shoot or clinch-takedown-gay ass hammer fists-wwe antics-crowd boos him

[Halb]

I would say Brock weights 275lbs for his fights on average. For two of his UFC matches he is on record as weighing 276lbs. Some people on Sherdog seem to think he fights at 290 or more! Mir himself is on record at weighing 260plus any UFC 98, he decided to lose 20 lbs for some reason...perhaps it was the knee injury...who knows? I can see Carwin weighing around 260 if he faced Lesnar, I doubt there would be more than 15lbs of weight difference (if Carwin weighs 260) in a any future match-up.

deevlash said:

Somebody who could kick the st out of lesnars legs

Yes. I would like an on form CroCop or Kongo to have a pop. I want to see someone who can sprawl and fire off kicks take on Lesnar.

Edited by Halb on Tuesday 28th July 15:07

[tim2100]

Tokoloshe said:

They were good but faded very quickly, both of them. Arlovski wasnt resigned by the UFC and they were happy to see the back of Silva, bot were good at their respective times but were a very very long way from their best by the time they faced fedor. Neither would have been a top contender in the UFC at this stage, in fact they couldnt even get a UFC contract, whcih says a lot about the competition in affliction. Fedor has fought has beens for ages now, he hasnt been tested against the best in years.

UFC wanted to resign Arlovski but Arloskvi wanted to follow the big bucks and fight Fedor. His last fight was an undercard fight which he easily won and they didn't even interview him. IMO he is still one of the best however as in the Fedor fight and a number of others gets cocky and leaves himself open. Arlovksi contract in the UFC was I think, $100k fight/$100k win, with Affliction it was $500k

Tokoloshe said:

I had been reading a few interviews where Fedor says he is a co owner, not sure if this is a recent developement, I'll see if I can find one. As a result M-1 global wont do anything without getting their name involved, and the UFC are far more successful than them and really dont need either Fedor or M-1 at all, there are very few HW's outside of the UFC worth fighting, hence with barnetts positive test Affliction folded. they wanted to put a LHW in there and a couple other smaller fighters, but didnt have options of true HW talent they could turn to like the UFC could.

Not sure about the ownership of M1, but the rest is spot on.

Tokoloshe said:

As for Lesnars skills, the Mir fight was a pretty skilled victory from where I was sat!! His gameplan for Herring was to smother him and it worked, that was one fight. He knocked Couture out, who a couple months before was the top contender for Fedor and had everyones respect, then suddenly became old, small, and useless as soon as Lesnar beat him.

He's been able to outwrestle Herring (who like couture suddenly became a gatekeeper as soon as he lost, whereas before everyone was saying how he would smash Lesnar, had more experience etc), outbox Couture, and beat Mir on the ground, and he keeps working on his weaknesses, if he can beat carwin then there are very few HW's left for him to face, even an in shape Nog would get battered. I cant name 5 HW's that would beat Lesnar, fedor is a possibility, that kickboxer who's name escapes me is another (dreads, not sure where he fights but not UFC), and Carwin is a possibility, though Lesnar matches him with knockout power and wrestliong, as well as size.

Herring always was a gatekeeper, Still an amazing fighter but definatly not top level.

You will find that it was couture himself and the USA UFC Fans who where where putting Captian America to the top to fight Fedor, look at his record. Prior to the Lesnar fight it was 16-8, He had lost to Liddel, retires, then due to slim HW division goes straight to a title shot for HW title, Beats Sylvia (who had a badly damaged back) and Gonzarga, then says he is ready for Fedor.

Agreed for Lesnar it needs a strong kickboxer / wrestler who can avoid takedowns, then Attack him when he goes for takedowns. I think/hope carwin can do this.

[tim2100]

deevlash said:

A lesnar fight basically goes: shoot or clinch-takedown-gay ass hammer fists-wwe antics-crowd boos him

Awesome analysis!

[XitUp]

tim2100 said:

Strikeforce are not big enough to be able to pay Fedor & M1, Dream possibly could pay him, but what fights do they have for him? a couple max.

Barnett.
Overeem.
Werdum.

They would all be good fights.

I'm sure Fedor vs Bob Sapp would do well on a NYE card.