stand in miniature esprit almost finished

[danster72]

teigan said:

danster72 said:

Can I suggest you post a full apology to Mr Kimberley and to Lotus for claiming:

teigan said:

wrong about what? i already stated that any wind tunnel tests done by lotus were for photo opportunities only. showing me a crude model is hardly the same as providing recreatable test data.

and then just shut up and accept that you were wrong

unlike you, i come on this forum only as an aid to working on my vehicle.

How does this place help you work on your vehicle then? From what I've seen here, you postulate grand theories and then refuse to listen to anybody who disagrees with you. Most people would ask their question then listen to the replies...!

teigan said:

as for apologising to mike kimberly. he gave me a media blurb, and there was no useful or new information in his answer.

Oh dear. You've failed both the basic etiquette test, and the reading test... again. Do you realise you've now undermined any credibility you may have had here?

teigan said:

if you all had some actual skills, you wouldn't need to cowtow to people in an affort to get ahead.

Handbags at dawn! Isn't that rather a puerile stance to take? Do you really think I'm disagreeing with you because I'm clocking up points towards my free car or job from Lotus, rather than because you're talking verifiable rubbish? When lots of people chip in and say "Er, actually, you're wrong", do you not maybe take a step back and reflect?

teigan said:

GKP - "I used a toilet once after a lotus employee pooed in it. It was awesome"

Gosh, let's raise the level of the debate, shall we?! Given that you appear to constantly moan and whinge about your Esprit, and every little quirk dissatisfies you so frequently and so publicly, why have you not just ditched the thing for something that actually appeals to you? There's plenty of dull, predicatable, reliable cars out there... try some Japanese brands. But no, you seem to display precisely the kind of blind devotion that you try to caricature others with...

[Kimbers34]

Teigan there was no apology required from you, my old man was just giving you some information. You stated that there was no useful or new information in his statement.....but you'd already said "any wind tunnel tests done by lotus were for marketing photo opportunities only" when he told you the car was tested extensively.

Now that is new information for a start. He also stated that "Lotus was driven by F1 racing technology practices at the time, (e.g low mass, low COG, careful management of COP, etc) aerodynamics and high speed stability was a key part of all our designs" which you also stated was not a consideration. Also new information.

I'm not having a go, but please understand you are saying, basically that a 30 year old car had no consideration for todays aerodynamic designs! Well I agree because they were using 30 year old aerodynamic designs!

I am merely correcting you initial statement which was wrong. Personally I'm sure neither myself or my father want an apology because everyone is entitled to an opinion. I think people are reacting to your statement about what colin would have thought "colin would have agreed that an aft wing needs to be balanced with a small wing or canard up front". Well he was actively involved in to design of the Esprit so I'm sure he would have done that if he thought it was necessary!

Nuff said on the subject. I have made my own point of view and you have made yours. I just think that most Lotus owners love their cars and react badly to criticism of their beloved Esprits.

[danster72]

Kimbers - if you want us all to shut up on this issue then I for one will do so, and apologise if you or your father feel you've been drawn into an argument against your will. Aerodynamics schmaerodynamics

Having lurked here for a good few years, I've become very frustrated of late with the negative and/or abusive attitude of some of the posters, and the number of factually incorrect assertions mixed with not-very-subtle slurs on our beloved car and company. It irks me greatly that this sort of drivel is carefully archived here, and will pop up when the general public are searching for assistance with problems, or advice pertaining to a prospective purchase, or whatever Esprit-related question brings them here. Yes, an intelligent reader will filter the good stuff from the dross, but the signal to noise ratio is getting awfully low in some places.

I do not believe that it is the job of the moderators to apply quality control to each thread or post - they have enough work just keeping everything on the straight and narrow - but I do believe it is the job of the community to speak up and say "stop talking shite" when it's required, and it seems to be required a lot at the moment.

I'll hop off my now I've got that off my chest...

[Mad Zero]

Have to say I too am puzzled as to why you own an Esprit teigan - did you buy it before realising what you'd got yourself into? ..or maybe you'd had more modern sports cars prior to the Lotus? I ask because most (if not all) the Esprit's quirks actually add something for me. I've had the use of all sorts of sports/performance cars over the years and driven many miles in a Turbo Esprit - now that the time has come for me to buy my own car it HAS to be an Esprit due to it's sensational looks and racing heritage - sure it'll have it's faults, some of which will no doubt make me swear and cost me money but you don't seem to have a good word to say about the car, or the company that made it! I'm not offended by anything you've said/written incidentally because I'm not selling them but please enlighten me!

[big-si]

this is just plain ridiculous, neither this or deecee's threads hold any form of merit or are propogating any relative information, they are however breeding contempt and will do nothing but add to the fire of distaste they are creating.

its about time the bloody moderators pulled their fingers out, closed what has to be two of the most unproductive threads on this god awful forum and had done with it.

but im assuming the increase of traffic is what its down to.

[Mad Zero]

big-si said:

its about time the bloody moderators pulled their fingers out, closed what has to be two of the most unproductive threads on this god awful forum and had done with it.

but im assuming the increase of traffic is what its down to.

Steady on old chap it's not the mods' fault - there has to be SOME freedom of speech left on the internet. If people want to come on here to rubbish Lotus' cars and/or their makers/designers they'll get a hard time and have to either prove their case(s) or shut up and move on!

Obviously the use of foul language or personal insults should be unacceptable on ANY public forum but discussions and arguments are (I thought) one of the key reasons forums exist - would be pretty dull if all we did all day was to congratulate each other on owning a sport car wouldn't it?

By demanding that this thread be locked/closed is kinda hard on those of us who are genuinely tying to get to the bottom of tiegan's issues regarding his Lotus don't you think? I wrote my reply to this thread being very careful not to offend anyone and try to steer it back into a Lotus discussion (for everyone's sake!) but, unfortunately, you've turned it all personal again!

[TonyHetherington]

big-si said:

its about time the bloody moderators pulled their fingers out, closed what has to be two of the most unproductive threads on this god awful forum and had done with it.

I did receive your e-mail yesterday, Si. I did not, however, deem it worthy of a reply.
However, seeing as you have decided to bring it in to the public light I will respond to this, quite frankly ridiculous, post.

PistonHeads is a discussion forum. We discuss things. Be they negative or positive. Simply because you disagree does NOT make it libelous or scandalous.
Do you truly think that a website with nearly 100,000 unique users, 6 million visitors PER MONTH, and having just been bought out by one of the largest publishing houses in the UK does NOT understand the law and how it relates to libelous/slanderous comments hosted on their website? Or do you think we sit back and await an e-mail from users of one of the forums?
How utterly utterly ridiculous of you to suggest we would host potentially law-breaking comments to simply aid traffic.

We have very strict rules about what can and can't be said. Everybody has agreed to these rules when they signed up and the rules are available next to every "post new message" dialogue box.

I will not be drawn into open discussion about specific users of this, or any other, forum, however I will say that I have monitored as much as I ( a human ) have been able to these past few weeks and I have removed anything I deemed not to be acceptable. This will have been done as quietly as possible.
Anything remaining, just because it is in a negative/critical light to certain aspects of Lotus or indeed the Esprit specifically, DOES NOT MAKE IT UNACCEPTABLE.

What is unacceptable is personal attacks on other users, and libelous writings. I have, to the best of my ability, seeked to remove these where applicable.

If somebody has specific instances where they believe the laws have been broken, please use the report function above the post in question.

As I keep stressing, simply because somebody disgarees with you or questions the car does not make it unacceptable.

You are all, evidently, proud of your marque and this is to be welcomed.

Tony (moderator)

[TonyHetherington]

danster72 said:

I do believe it is the job of the community to speak up and say "stop talking shite" when it's required, and it seems to be required a lot at the moment.

Absolutely correct. As an example, in the Speeding discussion forum we have some very pro-speed camera gentleman. Do you think we ban them just because they disagree with the majority of the forum? Remove their comments because (shock horror) they agreed with a 70mph limit on motorways? Or do you think that mature, articulate, sensible discussion is used to counter their arguments so that it may act as a balanced reference point?

[manntis]

"What is unacceptable is personal attacks on other users..."

And yet, when Mr. Kimbers, CEO of Lotus and designer of the Esprit posts in reply to questions on the car (extremely rare access to a high level official at an automotive manufacturing firm) you let attacks against him stand. Nice modding.

[teigan]

i did read up before purchasing the car. however, what the esprit websites and the coffee table books say about the esprit turned out to be false. based on that information, i expected a no nonsense vehicle designed for high performance driving. i especially expected a solid suspension with quick responsive steering. turns out the car is as much a poseur as an entry level japanese car with the letters "GT" slapped on by the marketing department. so much about the car is just not functional, and the generally poor workmanship just makes it worse. i must admit i did buy a used '77 esprit as a teenager, and you could say i should have learned then what i know now. well i wasn't exactly a responsible person back then, and i hadn't driven enough cars to know what was good. i also must admit i blew 2 pistons showing off, and didn't have it long. a few dozen cars later, i now have a basis for comparison. i rate esprit performance far behind even the econobox fords i was issued as fleet cars. i've given up the idea of using my lotus as a weekend track car, but it'll still make an adequate grocery getter, and i've no plans to sell it. i'd sooner make it a lawn ornament than waste time demonstrating it to a line of gawkers. meanwhile, i'm refining all the rough edges, and it may someday be of acceptable quality despite lotus. this isn't the only car i've found to be overrated. i criticised the camaro and vette to no end. however, fellow owners didn't demand i sell the car when i pointed out the mechanical flaws. i guess the average lotus owner is more personally insecure. despite driving through rose colored asses, you subconciously suspect the shaking and squeaking does not a performance car make.

Mad Zero said:

Have to say I too am puzzled as to why you own an Esprit teigan - did you buy it before realising what you'd got yourself into? ..or maybe you'd had more modern sports cars prior to the Lotus? I ask because most (if not all) the Esprit's quirks actually add something for me. I've had the use of all sorts of sports/performance cars over the years and driven many miles in a Turbo Esprit - now that the time has come for me to buy my own car it HAS to be an Esprit due to it's sensational looks and racing heritage - sure it'll have it's faults, some of which will no doubt make me swear and cost me money but you don't seem to have a good word to say about the car, or the company that made it! I'm not offended by anything you've said/written incidentally because I'm not selling them but please enlighten me!

[Mad Zero]

teigan said:

i expected a no nonsense vehicle designed for high performance driving. i especially expected a solid suspension with quick responsive steering.

You should get the suspension and steering you want with the Esprit if not the performance you were expecting but I guess you've already ensured all is well with your example so I won't suggest getting someone to look at it for you!

I think SOME of the trouble with the performance issue is caused by the Esprit's styling, it looks so damned fast when it's stationary one's mind expects Formula 1 performance when you twist the key! I too had a Camero btw (yes, here in UK!) so I can imagine what you said about those! Over here we tend to see Cameros and Firebirds as equivelents to our Ford Capri i.e. not exactly a sports car!

Just a thought, have you thought about a different engine in your Esprit? Perhaps something a little more modern which would give you the power/weight ratio to put the smile back on your face?

Edited by Mad Zero on Sunday 25th February 10:57

[toyroom]

teigan said:

i would do that on a bet, but it would probably void the warranty. i took laser level measurements off the actual car, with an autoart toy for cross reference. in most cases, the toy was misleadingly wrong.

Just a small fact I picked up once or twice. Scale model and toy cars intended for use as toys or ornaments are very rarely accurate. Due to the "impression" created by the huge difference in size, certain aspects of these objects are often very different in proportion to each other in order to look more realistic. I think it's a similar idea to the radiator fins of a Rolls Royce looking straight because they are actually slightly bent whilst they would look curved if they were, in reality, perfectly straight. For this reason, toy and ornamental cars are likely to be sufficiently innaccurate to be unsuitable for scientific research whilst still fulfilling their objective to entertain and give pleasure to their owner.

Edited by toyroom on Sunday 25th February 12:53

Edited by toyroom on Sunday 25th February 12:53

Edited by toyroom on Sunday 25th February 12:54

[bojangles]

jk1 said:

bojangles said:

[quote=lotusespritforum]

I think that this executive said "shut up" early on in this thread. (I had to laugh out loud) Not sure about what liberties the highly paid get for social graces... but I can see how one might be ticked off if told to shut up by a person like that. Not withstanding that, I cant tell you how often the higher ups need to give and take a little lip. I for one appreciate the interaction here.

Edited by bojangles on Tuesday 20th February 04:25

Edited by bojangles on Tuesday 20th February 04:26

As usual you're a day late and dollar short. The quote was "Maybe, just maybe Teigan will shut up now." and was not made by Mike Kimberley.

Automotive engineer looking for work, lacks basic reading comprehension....makes sense to me.

... what did I do to deserve that? I am often the one nitpicking English and grammar and so on. My message was not unkind or mean, and had the intention to be humourous. I did nothing wrong I pointed out some stuff that gave defence to someone being picked on. The difference between shut up and maybe shut up is ridiculous. If I was at a dinner party and said to the hostess "maybe you should shut up" I think she might be miffed.

You daring to just insult me at point blank range and totally unsolicited, is socially disgraceful. My reading comprehension and my help on this board has been quite good... I demand an apology.

Edited by bojangles on Monday 26th February 01:30

Edited by TonyHetherington on Monday 26th February 12:41

[teigan]

Mad Zero said:

teigan said:

i expected a no nonsense vehicle designed for high performance driving. i especially expected a solid suspension with quick responsive steering.

You should get the suspension and steering you want with the Esprit if not the performance you were expecting but I guess you've already ensured all is well with your example so I won't suggest getting someone to look at it for you!

I think SOME of the trouble with the performance issue is caused by the Esprit's styling, it looks so damned fast when it's stationary one's mind expects Formula 1 performance when you twist the key! I too had a Camero btw (yes, here in UK!) so I can imagine what you said about those! Over here we tend to see Cameros and Firebirds as equivelents to our Ford Capri i.e. not exactly a sports car!

Just a thought, have you thought about a different engine in your Esprit? Perhaps something a little more modern which would give you the power/weight ratio to put the smile back on your face?

Edited by Mad Zero on Sunday 25th February 10:57

[teigan]

[quote=toyroomJust a small fact I picked up once or twice. Scale model and toy cars intended for use as toys or ornaments are very rarely accurate. Due to the "impression" created by the huge difference in size, certain aspects of these objects are often very different in proportion to each other in order to look more realistic. I think it's a similar idea to the radiator fins of a Rolls Royce looking straight because they are actually slightly bent whilst they would look curved if they were, in reality, perfectly straight. For this reason, toy and ornamental cars are likely to be sufficiently innaccurate to be unsuitable for scientific research whilst still fulfilling their objective to entertain and give pleasure to their owner.

Edited by toyroom on Sunday 25th February 12:54

[/quote]

that makes a lot of sense. would have been nice though to have a true scale model available as well. have you seen the kyosho 1/64th scale esprit toys they gave away at japanese convenience stores? a friend bought me one off ebay. i've since bought 2 more in different colors.

[Kimbers34]

Teigan & Bojangles.

Please accept my apologies for any comments made against yourselves that are personal and critical. Everyone is entitled to opinions and whilst trying to clear up a disagreement the whole subject has got a little accusational.

Bojangles, you were just being light hearted and I understand that. It was me commenting, not Mike, my father.

Teigan, you are an opinionated, thick headed, annoying and intensely dislikeable person....sometimes. But I admire the fact that despite being attacked you don't get personal and stick to your guns. you ARE wrong, but entitled to your opinion and I fully endorse that.

On another note, I'm always right so just don't argue with me!

[Tuna]

teigan said:

meanwhile, i'm refining all the rough edges, and it may someday be of acceptable quality despite lotus. this isn't the only car i've found to be overrated. i criticised the camaro and vette to no end. however, fellow owners didn't demand i sell the car when i pointed out the mechanical flaws. i guess the average lotus owner is more personally insecure. despite driving through rose colored asses, you subconciously suspect the shaking and squeaking does not a performance car make.

The problem is that your experience seems to be radically different from most other people's. Reviews of the car, drivers, Lotus' own test drivers all think it's a great car. It's hard not to come to the conclusion that either you really don't know much about cars, or that your specific car is a pup.

If I walked into an art gallery, stood in front of a Picasso and loudly started telling anyone that came by that it was , you could understand that some of them would get a bit annoyed at me. Firstly because I'm being pretty rude, secondly because I'm showing my ignorance and thirdly because I'm insulting the painter and many people who love his work. Can you understand that? That's not to say the Esprit is perfect, but it's generally accepted to be a heck of a good drive.

You further undermine your case by demonstrating a complete contempt for history and accuracy. You were wrong about wind tunnel tests being carried out, your own wind tunnel tests look pretty ropey and I'm amazed that you seriously thought a scale model toy should be accurate to the same dimensions as the full scale vehicle. It gives the overall impression that you really don't know what you're talking about.

[Mad Zero]

Tuna said:

If I walked into an art gallery, stood in front of a Picasso and loudly started telling anyone that came by that it was , you could understand that some of them would get a bit annoyed at me..

(spoken in Judean Popular People's Front voice) "...now he's having a pop at Picasso!!"

[danster72]

Tuna said:

teigan said:

meanwhile, i'm refining all the rough edges, and it may someday be of acceptable quality despite lotus. this isn't the only car i've found to be overrated. i criticised the camaro and vette to no end. however, fellow owners didn't demand i sell the car when i pointed out the mechanical flaws. i guess the average lotus owner is more personally insecure. despite driving through rose colored asses, you subconciously suspect the shaking and squeaking does not a performance car make.

The problem is that your experience seems to be radically different from most other people's. Reviews of the car, drivers, Lotus' own test drivers all think it's a great car. It's hard not to come to the conclusion that either you really don't know much about cars, or that your specific car is a pup.

If I walked into an art gallery, stood in front of a Picasso and loudly started telling anyone that came by that it was , you could understand that some of them would get a bit annoyed at me. Firstly because I'm being pretty rude, secondly because I'm showing my ignorance and thirdly because I'm insulting the painter and many people who love his work. Can you understand that? That's not to say the Esprit is perfect, but it's generally accepted to be a heck of a good drive.

You further undermine your case by demonstrating a complete contempt for history and accuracy. You were wrong about wind tunnel tests being carried out, your own wind tunnel tests look pretty ropey and I'm amazed that you seriously thought a scale model toy should be accurate to the same dimensions as the full scale vehicle. It gives the overall impression that you really don't know what you're talking about.

Amen to that!

[teigan]

Tuna said:

[quote=teigan]...You were wrong about wind tunnel tests being carried out, your own wind tunnel tests look pretty ropey and I'm amazed that you seriously thought a scale model toy should be accurate to the same dimensions as the full scale vehicle. It gives the overall impression that you really don't know what you're talking about.

to the contrary, the lotus voice talks of wind tunnel tests in 1972, more confirming my suspicions. my car is a 1984 and various plastic bits were added everywhere which would have required a whole new test. if lotus actually utilised the wind tunnel data to determine shape, then another series of tests would have been ordered. as i stated before, the only acceptable proof i am wrong, would be to provide the raw wind tunnel data, and evidence it was ever interpreted. releasing that raw data would also be of great social service to any and all wanting to improve their cars.