Descending from Cols, advice please
Discussion
Thought PH would be the perfect place to debunk any myths i might have on this topic-I think I might be confusing car technique with bike riding.
Off to the Alps soon to struggle up a few cols , my question is on the way down sweeping roads and hairpins
Of course go at a sensible speed , ones brain and muscles are fatigued- but the down hill bits are fun when you go quickly!
2 questions -
A) is it correct to use your front brake more not only for braking performance but it get more cooling on the quick bits?
B) Is it advisable to trail brake into the corners/ hairpins so as to keep weight on the front wheel, as you would in a car or am i going to end up in a hedge doing this
Any other advice gratefully accepted, as long as its not about descending slowly !
Cheers
Abid
abidr500 said:
Thought PH would be the perfect place to debunk any myths i might have on this topic-I think I might be confusing car technique with bike riding.
Off to the Alps soon to struggle up a few cols , my question is on the way down sweeping roads and hairpins
Of course go at a sensible speed , ones brain and muscles are fatigued- but the down hill bits are fun when you go quickly!
2 questions -
A) is it correct to use your front brake more not only for braking performance but it get more cooling on the quick bits?
B) Is it advisable to trail brake into the corners/ hairpins so as to keep weight on the front wheel, as you would in a car or am i going to end up in a hedge doing this
Any other advice gratefully accepted, as long as its not about descending slowly !
Cheers
Abid
This is what I do. It may or may not be correct!Off to the Alps soon to struggle up a few cols , my question is on the way down sweeping roads and hairpins
Of course go at a sensible speed , ones brain and muscles are fatigued- but the down hill bits are fun when you go quickly!
2 questions -
A) is it correct to use your front brake more not only for braking performance but it get more cooling on the quick bits?
B) Is it advisable to trail brake into the corners/ hairpins so as to keep weight on the front wheel, as you would in a car or am i going to end up in a hedge doing this
Any other advice gratefully accepted, as long as its not about descending slowly !
Cheers
Abid
I brake in a straight line, with my weight rearwards. As much rear brake as I can without locking (if it does I release it, as you would in a car or on a motorcycle) but, yes, the majority of the braking is at the front (using as much as I need to slow down enough for the corner having left the braking as late as I dare).
So no trail braking here, but I do move myself all the way forward when turning in, to get more weight over the front wheel. Not just for more grip but it seems to really help the bike turn. I also put my weight through the outside pedal during the turn, until the bike's upright enough to allow pedalling out of the corner.
Other tip would be to change gear on the approach to harpins, as you would in a car, so you're not trying to drive your biggest gear out the other side. Sounds obvious but it seems much easier to forget on a bicycle when you've approached it freewheeling.
Edited by SixPotBelly on Friday 2nd June 12:47
Be prepared for it to be less fun than you expect - or rather, for the fun to be replaced by a fatigue you may not have experienced before. It can be extremely hard on your wrists and forearms, and your neck or back will probably complain too. You may actually want it to be over before you expected!
Leave more of a safety margin if you don't know the road; a bump or patch of loose gravel/rocks or a strong gust of wind or a tightening radius corner can really bugger you up if you're flying down a mountain at over 40 mph and haven't got a lot of margin for error.
Leave more of a safety margin if you don't know the road; a bump or patch of loose gravel/rocks or a strong gust of wind or a tightening radius corner can really bugger you up if you're flying down a mountain at over 40 mph and haven't got a lot of margin for error.
Daveyraveygravey said:
Be prepared for it to be less fun than you expect - or rather, for the fun to be replaced by a fatigue you may not have experienced before....
Personally, I absolutely love it! I know the purists prefer climbing, but for me the climb is what has to be done to earn the descent. 
If you've never watched the "Global Cycling Network" channel on youtube, get yourself on it - plenty of tips on there. You may need to stop for a breather if you're doing any long descents with lots of hairpins because your wrists and arms will take a hammering, otherwise, look where you want to go, don't think "oh s
t, I'm going to hit that rock" whilst looking at it, because you will hit it 
t, I'm going to hit that rock" whilst looking at it, because you will hit it Depends on your target.
Do you want to prioritise speed or safety?
I really love descending quickly, I leave my braking late, I try to maximise corner speed and I hammer it away from the corners. It's totally stupid, but great fun. My heart rate descending is higher (180BPM) than it is climbing(170BPM).
If I was aiming for safety I would sit upright to increase drag, brake in short bursts using alternately front and rear brakes. I would also aim to get all or most of my braking done in a straight line. Braking and cornering together doesn't help increase lateral grip.
Do you want to prioritise speed or safety?
I really love descending quickly, I leave my braking late, I try to maximise corner speed and I hammer it away from the corners. It's totally stupid, but great fun. My heart rate descending is higher (180BPM) than it is climbing(170BPM).
If I was aiming for safety I would sit upright to increase drag, brake in short bursts using alternately front and rear brakes. I would also aim to get all or most of my braking done in a straight line. Braking and cornering together doesn't help increase lateral grip.
Brake in a straight line, use the front more for that and I push my weight rearward to help if I feel I need it. Get all your braking done before the corner.
For the corner, keep the outside pedal down and push down hard on that pedal, use some weight on your inside hand to help tip the bike in to the corner. I try not to corner like I'm on a motorbike, keep the CoG nearer the contact point of the bike/road so if it does slip a little it can be saved easier. The best description was 'Imagine a plumbline from your belly button, this should be passing through the bottom bracket' This bit of advice I got whilst in Tenerife where I did more descending and followed the guides to get ideas what to do.
But build up speed at a rate you are happy with. And enjoy, it's a great rush when it all starts to flow.
For the corner, keep the outside pedal down and push down hard on that pedal, use some weight on your inside hand to help tip the bike in to the corner. I try not to corner like I'm on a motorbike, keep the CoG nearer the contact point of the bike/road so if it does slip a little it can be saved easier. The best description was 'Imagine a plumbline from your belly button, this should be passing through the bottom bracket' This bit of advice I got whilst in Tenerife where I did more descending and followed the guides to get ideas what to do.
But build up speed at a rate you are happy with. And enjoy, it's a great rush when it all starts to flow.
Lots of good advice but no one has suggested covering up for the descents it can be very cold depending on the weather of course. A pro tip is to keep spinning your legs even if they don't do anything, it keeps the chills away.
My experience was the first corner nearly had me off the tarmac, your speeds will be greater than you are used to.
Last year on Ventoux my Strava rankings were 3600 ish for ascent 730 ish for descent.
Descending for 13 miles and 30 minutes takes its toll but has its rewards.
Enjoy yourself.
My experience was the first corner nearly had me off the tarmac, your speeds will be greater than you are used to.
Last year on Ventoux my Strava rankings were 3600 ish for ascent 730 ish for descent.
Descending for 13 miles and 30 minutes takes its toll but has its rewards.
Enjoy yourself.
In addition to 'how to descend' which others have covered.
Make sure you've checked your bike over - condition and function of tyres, pads and cables etc.
If you want a rest stop, call for one and enjoy the view. Being a little fresher, fed and hydrated will improve your concentration.
Put a gilet, or jacket on. Can be very cold on a fast descent.
Make sure you've checked your bike over - condition and function of tyres, pads and cables etc.
If you want a rest stop, call for one and enjoy the view. Being a little fresher, fed and hydrated will improve your concentration.
Put a gilet, or jacket on. Can be very cold on a fast descent.
I thought i was quite good at descending until i lived there and was taken out for a lesson by an old French boy.
Tips he gave me were;
- take the defensive driving position,
- look as far down hill as you can, in a series of chicanes it's useful to know if there's anything coming up the hill, if not use all the road,
- 1st brake is your body, going from full tuck to sitting upright shoulders open can scrub quite a bit of speed off,
- only brake when you really need to,
- brake in a straight line (just like a car).
- brake hard and short ,
- look where you want to go (not where you don't want to go)
- outside pedal down
- lean in!
When you get it right it feels great!
Tips he gave me were;
- take the defensive driving position,
- look as far down hill as you can, in a series of chicanes it's useful to know if there's anything coming up the hill, if not use all the road,
- 1st brake is your body, going from full tuck to sitting upright shoulders open can scrub quite a bit of speed off,
- only brake when you really need to,
- brake in a straight line (just like a car).
- brake hard and short ,
- look where you want to go (not where you don't want to go)
- outside pedal down
- lean in!
When you get it right it feels great!
Marcellus said:
I thought i was quite good at descending until i lived there and was taken out for a lesson by an old French boy.
Tips he gave me were;
- take the defensive driving position,
- look as far down hill as you can, in a series of chicanes it's useful to know if there's anything coming up the hill, if not use all the road,
- 1st brake is your body, going from full tuck to sitting upright shoulders open can scrub quite a bit of speed off,
- only brake when you really need to,
- brake in a straight line (just like a car).
- brake hard and short ,
- look where you want to go (not where you don't want to go)
- outside pedal down
- lean in!
When you get it right it feels great!
Perfect. The only thing I'd add is position yourself not just for yourself but to ensure that other road users can see you. A busy day here in the Alps will have the roads crawling with cars, caravans and bikes and they don't necessarily stick to their own side of the road. Also it's worth keeping a bit out so someone doesn't try and squeeze past when there's not really much space.Tips he gave me were;
- take the defensive driving position,
- look as far down hill as you can, in a series of chicanes it's useful to know if there's anything coming up the hill, if not use all the road,
- 1st brake is your body, going from full tuck to sitting upright shoulders open can scrub quite a bit of speed off,
- only brake when you really need to,
- brake in a straight line (just like a car).
- brake hard and short ,
- look where you want to go (not where you don't want to go)
- outside pedal down
- lean in!
When you get it right it feels great!
Final point, watch the tarmac. On a hot day here the tarmac can frequently go soft on the passes. It can be like hitting ice. Watch for dark patches where it's been melted and worn before.
SixPotBelly said:
Personally, I absolutely love it! I know the purists prefer climbing, but for me the climb is what has to be done to earn the descent.
I had a bad crash in Devon a few years ago, downhilling way too fast, so it has made me more cautious than I used to be. My point was you get all excited thinking about it as you grind up the climb, but descending isn't all easy and no effort. You have to concentrate, if you're on the drops for better braking and cornering you probably can't do the whole descent in that position, and it will fatigue different parts of you.Daveyraveygravey said:
I had a bad crash in Devon a few years ago, downhilling way too fast, so it has made me more cautious than I used to be. My point was you get all excited thinking about it as you grind up the climb, but descending isn't all easy and no effort. You have to concentrate, if you're on the drops for better braking and cornering you probably can't do the whole descent in that position, and it will fatigue different parts of you.
As Teddy R put it, "Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty..."The concept of traction circles is the same as with a car. You need grip to brake, turn and accelerate and you only have a finite supply to put to use. It's much safer to tackle the braking in a straight line, with the front doing most of the work (that's where most of the weight and therefore grip is). It's possible to trail brake but you need to be even more cautious about doing this on the bike as it's harder to flirt with the envelope of grip and get away with it when you only have one contact patch. It's not something I'd even consider if you're new to riding big descents. Just like with cars you'll find you get much more speed from taking the right line and getting a great exit than from maximising entry speed with trail braking.
Look as far ahead as you can and ALWAYS at where you want to go and not the thing that you're terrified of hitting. If the hairpin is clear then a late turn in and a late apex lets you get back on the pedals sooner and exit the corner faster.
Always keep a little in reserve. Roads tighten. Surfaces turn bad. Bikers spring up unsighted. The consequences are quite serious and one scare will slow you down so much more than leaving yourself a little margin.
Have fun though. It's my favourite part of riding.
Look as far ahead as you can and ALWAYS at where you want to go and not the thing that you're terrified of hitting. If the hairpin is clear then a late turn in and a late apex lets you get back on the pedals sooner and exit the corner faster.
Always keep a little in reserve. Roads tighten. Surfaces turn bad. Bikers spring up unsighted. The consequences are quite serious and one scare will slow you down so much more than leaving yourself a little margin.
Have fun though. It's my favourite part of riding.
outnumbered said:
The only thing I'd add would be: Brake only when you need to, and leave them time to cool down, don't leave the brakes partially applied for long periods, or you can risk blowing the tyre off the rim.
Had this a few years ago on a long downhill in Scotland. Then did a French Alps 5 dayer last year and it was always in the back of my mind. Earlier this month I spent 5 days in the Swiss Alps with my new bike with disc brakes and it was superb - I enjoyed it far more.
Maracus said:
Earlier this month I spent 5 days in the Swiss Alps with my new bike with disc brakes and it was superb - I enjoyed it far more.
I was avoiding mentioning the D word as so many on here who haven't used them have such a strong opinion against them but, my god, do they make attacking a hairpinned mountain descent (even more) fun!Gassing Station | Pedal Powered | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff