British Cycling allow the use of disc brakes in road racing

British Cycling allow the use of disc brakes in road racing

Author
Discussion

E65Ross

34,945 posts

211 months

Tuesday 21st November 2017
quotequote all
I wonder, in race cars, when disc brakes were allowed, were they the cause of accidents as they had superior stopping power.

UCI races have had several riders with discs this year, have they been the cause of more accidents that would have been avoided had they been using rim brakes?

Genuine questions by the way.

okgo

37,858 posts

197 months

Tuesday 21st November 2017
quotequote all
Have you done a road race yet? Genuine question.

Do you have any idea what its like to have maybe a couple of inches either side, in front and behind you, at all times, and one false move brings everyone down in a pit of sharp metal....?


Rolls

1,502 posts

176 months

Tuesday 21st November 2017
quotequote all
Sod doing a crit at cyclopark with half the field on discs - there'll be carnage at the left hander at the bottom of the hill!

As has been said - all it takes is one person to bring down a whole bunch of people!

Kawasicki

13,041 posts

234 months

Tuesday 21st November 2017
quotequote all
E65Ross said:
I wonder, in race cars, when disc brakes were allowed, were they the cause of accidents as they had superior stopping power.

UCI races have had several riders with discs this year, have they been the cause of more accidents that would have been avoided had they been using rim brakes?

Genuine questions by the way.
The first disc brakes were not much better, if at all, than the best of the drum brakes, and tyres were probably the limiting factor, so no.

TheFungle

4,069 posts

205 months

Tuesday 21st November 2017
quotequote all
Banana Boy said:
I do wonder just how long it will be before someone discovers that discs aren't infallible... they'll still suffer from brake fade and fluid boiling on all these Alpine descents people are riding...

'Modulation' makes me laugh too, that's a benefit of all hydraulic brakes - the same would be achieved with hydraulic rim brakes, rims essentially being a fat disc and in no way comparable to drum brakes.
Two disc anecdotes from me, one good, one bad.

Descending is my thing and my goal was to achieve the KOM on the descent of Mt. Tiede, having previously had a hire bike with Ultegra rim brakes I knew that there was one particular section that would require a lot of braking, sure enough the brakes started to go 'off' leaving it hard to accurately judge braking distances as well as contributing, IMO, to the rim overheating and causing the tube to go pop. The next time I rode a 105 equipped disc brake and braking was so much easier, braking consistency was maintained the whole descent and my tube didn't go pop, still didn't get #1

My bad experience was descending down Greenhow Hill into Pateley Bridge, a long descent with the steepest sections near the bottom once you already have plenty of speed under your wheels. I was caught behind a car and was having to 'gently' drag the brakes, the steepness was such it wasn't possible to simply sit up, I could feel the brakes starting to lose their bite which wasn't a huge concern, however they went very quickly from mild fading to full on 'where the fk are my brakes', fortunately by doing 'brake on, brake off' I managed to dissipate the heat somewhat but it was certainly an eye-opener to the limitations of disc brakes on a road bike when a lot of high speed stopping is required .

Banana Boy

467 posts

112 months

Tuesday 21st November 2017
quotequote all
Kawasicki said:
E65Ross said:
I wonder, in race cars, when disc brakes were allowed, were they the cause of accidents as they had superior stopping power.

UCI races have had several riders with discs this year, have they been the cause of more accidents that would have been avoided had they been using rim brakes?

Genuine questions by the way.
The first disc brakes were not much better, if at all, than the best of the drum brakes, and tyres were probably the limiting factor, so no.
The dynamics of any four wheeled motor vehicle and a two wheeled pedal cycle are beyond worlds apart! You're not comparing apples with apples.

The 2nd issue with the car anology, especially racing cars is that the brakes were developed through a genuine need and advantage gained through more efficient braking. This is simply not the case with road bikes.

By all means buy into new kit if you want to but lets not pretend that this is some sort of revolutionary development that we can't live without. It simply isn't. It's a marginal gain at best...

And there in lies the rub, unlike marginal gains like light weight parts or aero kit where you benefit regardless of skill or strength, on a sliding scale depending on where you are in that respect. Disc brakes are heavier and less aero and only an actual advantage if you have the skill or more importantly the nerve to make use of them. And even then, how many road races involve a course that features a full tilt effort into a stop that requires full force braking?!

TheFungle

4,069 posts

205 months

Tuesday 21st November 2017
quotequote all
okgo said:
Have you done a road race yet? Genuine question.

Do you have any idea what its like to have maybe a couple of inches either side, in front and behind you, at all times, and one false move brings everyone down in a pit of sharp metal....?
From experience, I'd suggest that lower quality carbon rims would offer far 'snatchier' and riskier breaking than alu rims or discs.

E65Ross

34,945 posts

211 months

Tuesday 21st November 2017
quotequote all
Please can you explain this, as I'm finding it hard to understand.

You say discs are not any more powerful at stopping than rim brakes. Then you say that it's a problem because you'll have some on rim brakes and some on discs? If there's no noticeable difference in stopping performance, what's the issue?

SAS Tom

3,398 posts

173 months

Tuesday 21st November 2017
quotequote all
I’m still trying to work out why there are people in this thread that are so angry about disc brakes? Surely if you don’t like them then don’t use them.

I don’t really get the claims that they aren’t any better at stopping despite every single brake and bike manufacturer saying that they are. Stories of people dragging brakes down hills and them fading isn’t a surprise, those people should learn how to brake properly.

FWIW my road bikes have rim brakes.

Banana Boy

467 posts

112 months

Tuesday 21st November 2017
quotequote all
E65Ross said:
Please can you explain this, as I'm finding it hard to understand.

You say discs are not any more powerful at stopping than rim brakes. Then you say that it's a problem because you'll have some on rim brakes and some on discs? If there's no noticeable difference in stopping performance, what's the issue?
I don't care about any supposed performance advantage, I think it's highly subjective on a road bike application.

My issue with disc brakes on road racing bikes is that they're unnecessary, they look st and I don't fancy coming into contact with them in a pile up!

(the 3T Strada is ruined by the discs IMO, I would bankrupt myself to buy one if it had hidden rim callipers in the forks and under the BB!)

Sandersports

181 posts

188 months

Wednesday 22nd November 2017
quotequote all
Rolls said:
Sod doing a crit at cyclopark with half the field on discs - there'll be carnage at the left hander at the bottom of the hill!

As has been said - all it takes is one person to bring down a whole bunch of people!
Typically someone blowing this whole argument out of proportion and not thinking with any reality ! Next time you are at Cyclo have a look at the bikes around you on callipers ... Take a brand new pair of Dura-ace calipers with newish blocks on a pair of Ali rimmed wheels that have never ben ridden in the wet to build the grease up on the surface of the braking area , then compare them to a dirty pair of carbon rims with stty blocks which someone has never washed , the braking performance is totally night and day ... Do riders all brake at the same spot , do they heck . I will always brake later than another rider if i feel i will gain a advantage to a corner. If anything as MTB'ers will know very well you can feather a disk brake with much more ease than callipers giving you a safer slow down for a corner . Im a big fan of disks , however when it comes to racing im sticking with calipers for now as i just dont see any point in making the bike heavier for something just not needed. Winter training, disks all day long, Summer bike and racing you wont see me on a disk.

Roger Irrelevant

2,899 posts

112 months

Wednesday 22nd November 2017
quotequote all
E65Ross said:
Please can you explain this, as I'm finding it hard to understand.

You say discs are not any more powerful at stopping than rim brakes. Then you say that it's a problem because you'll have some on rim brakes and some on discs? If there's no noticeable difference in stopping performance, what's the issue?
Plus if road races have people jostling about within inches of each other at speed, then (as I've learned the hard way), the reaction time if somebody in front of you hamfistedly grabs their (rim) brakes is essentially zero anyway. So I don't see what difference they'll make in this regard - it's not like unnecessary pile-ups are unheard of now. I find it a bit odd how people can have such strong opinions about this tbh.

E65Ross

34,945 posts

211 months

Wednesday 22nd November 2017
quotequote all
Banana Boy said:
E65Ross said:
Please can you explain this, as I'm finding it hard to understand.

You say discs are not any more powerful at stopping than rim brakes. Then you say that it's a problem because you'll have some on rim brakes and some on discs? If there's no noticeable difference in stopping performance, what's the issue?
I don't care about any supposed performance advantage, I think it's highly subjective on a road bike application.

My issue with disc brakes on road racing bikes is that they're unnecessary, they look st and I don't fancy coming into contact with them in a pile up!

(the 3T Strada is ruined by the discs IMO, I would bankrupt myself to buy one if it had hidden rim callipers in the forks and under the BB!)
Looks are subjective, but I quite like them. Coming into contact in a pile up? Maybe not....but I really can't imagine they're any worse than coming into contact with a chainring or a cassette....

smn159

12,448 posts

216 months

Wednesday 22nd November 2017
quotequote all
E65Ross said:
Banana Boy said:
E65Ross said:
Please can you explain this, as I'm finding it hard to understand.

You say discs are not any more powerful at stopping than rim brakes. Then you say that it's a problem because you'll have some on rim brakes and some on discs? If there's no noticeable difference in stopping performance, what's the issue?
I don't care about any supposed performance advantage, I think it's highly subjective on a road bike application.

My issue with disc brakes on road racing bikes is that they're unnecessary, they look st and I don't fancy coming into contact with them in a pile up!

(the 3T Strada is ruined by the discs IMO, I would bankrupt myself to buy one if it had hidden rim callipers in the forks and under the BB!)
Looks are subjective, but I quite like them. Coming into contact in a pile up? Maybe not....but I really can't imagine they're any worse than coming into contact with a chainring or a cassette....
Agree that looks are subjective, but any performance advantage is measurable rather than being subjective.

Maybe the real reason for the strong opinions is encapsulated in the statement "they look st".

Road cyclists can be an extremely conservative bunch where change is concerned.

untakenname

4,953 posts

191 months

Wednesday 22nd November 2017
quotequote all
Am I the only one that likes the looks of disc brakes? Outside of aero calipers which are hidden I far prefer the look of discs.

I've had discs on my road bike for nearly two years now, the difference in the wet is night and day as you get so much more modulation on the front with discs.

I can see it causing a lot of issues in races not so much in the pro classes where people actually have bike control but in the lower leagues where some riders will invariably faceplant when they go to grab a load of front brake but don't pay attention to the increased stopping power.

I wonder if this tragic accident here was caused by someone not knowing how to brake correctly?

http://road.cc/content/news/232524-cyclist-screame...

E65Ross

34,945 posts

211 months

Wednesday 22nd November 2017
quotequote all
smn159 said:
Agree that looks are subjective, but any performance advantage is measurable rather than being subjective.
Agree. And that's where discs have been shown, objectively, to be that bit better.

TwistingMyMelon

6,385 posts

204 months

Wednesday 22nd November 2017
quotequote all

Banana Boy

467 posts

112 months

Wednesday 22nd November 2017
quotequote all
E65Ross said:
smn159 said:
Agree that looks are subjective, but any performance advantage is measurable rather than being subjective.
Agree. And that's where discs have been shown, objectively, to be that bit better.
In a lab, absolutely.

In the real world? Not when you throw different riders of different shapes, sizes and abilities, riding different bikes with a range of kit into the mix. Any potential gain is very marginal at best.

Personally, they don't worry me enough to get frothy about them and while I have the choice I won't be running them on my race bikes but the proof of the pudding will be in the eating...

E65Ross

34,945 posts

211 months

Wednesday 22nd November 2017
quotequote all
Banana Boy said:
In a lab, absolutely.

In the real world? Not when you throw different riders of different shapes, sizes and abilities, riding different bikes with a range of kit into the mix. Any potential gain is very marginal at best.

Personally, they don't worry me enough to get frothy about them and while I have the choice I won't be running them on my race bikes but the proof of the pudding will be in the eating...
Haven't GCN done a couple of videos on stopping distances, which showed that discs did slow quicker?

That was done on the road, not in a lab.

They found in dry conditions they were basically the same. In wet weather though it became quite significant.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHFSSXOSnxs

frisbee

4,957 posts

109 months

Wednesday 22nd November 2017
quotequote all
SAS Tom said:
I’m still trying to work out why there are people in this thread that are so angry about disc brakes? Surely if you don’t like them then don’t use them.

I don’t really get the claims that they aren’t any better at stopping despite every single brake and bike manufacturer saying that they are. Stories of people dragging brakes down hills and them fading isn’t a surprise, those people should learn how to brake properly.

FWIW my road bikes have rim brakes.
I'm bemused by the "arguments" on this thread that rim brakes can provide all the stopping power you'll ever need, can lock the wheels at will etc.. but if you have one person on disk brakes in the front of peloton who gently touches their brakes everyone behind riding rim brakes will die instantly.