Electric bicycles - who buys them?

Electric bicycles - who buys them?

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Discussion

Laurel Green

30,770 posts

231 months

Monday 20th June 2022
quotequote all
I have a first generation Oxygen E-City Mate and it must be about ten years old now. Though it doesn't get a lot of use, the battery is still going strong; as above, sounds like a load of hogwash.

Jobbo

12,960 posts

263 months

Monday 20th June 2022
quotequote all
mike74 said:
regardless of usage levels and how well you look after them
That doesn't sound remotely plausible. If you store it half charged and don't use it, it won't go through charge/discharge cycles to degrade. It's not magic, it's just a Li-ion battery.

mike74

3,687 posts

131 months

Monday 20th June 2022
quotequote all
This was the top result on google when searching 'e-bike battery life'...

https://pedegoelectricbikes.ca/3-ways-to-prolong-y...


''You should typically expect a battery to last between 3 and 5 years if it is well maintained. (A lithium battery will slowly lose its capacity over time, even if it’s not used.... A case of use it or lose it)''

Hopefully it is a load of hogwash!

monthou

4,545 posts

49 months

Monday 20th June 2022
quotequote all
mike74 said:
This was the top result on google when searching 'e-bike battery life'...

https://pedegoelectricbikes.ca/3-ways-to-prolong-y...


''You should typically expect a battery to last between 3 and 5 years if it is well maintained. (A lithium battery will slowly lose its capacity over time, even if it’s not used.... A case of use it or lose it)''

Hopefully it is a load of hogwash!
It's a sales site.

pedego said:
In the case of Pedego Canada, we offer a 5 Year Prorated Battery Warranty with all our electric bikes, which is one of the best in the business. Why we’re so confident in our batteries is the quality of the cells within them. If you take nothing else away from this post, remember this: do not buy an electric bike with anything less than a five year battery warranty

kingston12

5,473 posts

156 months

Monday 20th June 2022
quotequote all
mike74 said:
Having done further research I'm reading that apparently the batteries will only last 3-4 years regardless of usage levels and how well you look after them, is that really the case?

That puts a slightly different complexion on the ownership proposition.

Spending around £3k on an electric bike is a serious outlay for a skinflint like me but I was justifying it to myself on the basis that if I get 10+ years usage out of it with nothing much more than routine maintenance and servicing then the figures stack up... but if it turns out I've got to spend £500 on a new battery every 3 or 4 years it suddenly looks a considerably less attractive proposition!

Edited by mike74 on Monday 20th June 08:24
I've always found it to be more about charge cycles than age, as long as they are stored properly (around 50% charge).

We've got two identical Specialized e-bikes that are three years old/ We've not used them nearly as much as we thought we would, and they've been stored for months at a time. When we do take them out on a longer run, there is no perceptible loss in range from when they were new.

I've heard it said that the batteries will be down to about half the original capacity after 500 charges, but obviously have no real world experience of that yet on our bikes.

I can't see why it would be any different to any other Lithium batteries - I bought a new iPhone last year and after probably 200 charges it lasts noticeably less time than it did when it was new (the 'battery health' app claims that battery capacity is still at 100% of course!)


GSE

2,339 posts

238 months

Monday 20th June 2022
quotequote all
I have an Orbea Gain with the X35 e-bikemotion system, typical use is 5 x 15+15 mile commutes per week, plus a longer 30-40 mile ride at the weekend, done about 3500 miles on it now. I try to keep the charge state between 25-75% which fits my commute perfectly, but it gets charged/discharged outside of those limits as well.

The X35 app shows only 97 battery charge cycles so far, but I have plugged it in and either topped up or fully charged it many more times than this. I assume that the app takes partial charges into account, and only declares a full charge cycle when (for example) 2 x 50% charges have been completed?

I haven't noticed any reduction in battery capacity or range so far. What do we reckon on the number of charge cycles before the battery capacity starts to reduce?


RedWhiteMonkey

6,806 posts

181 months

Monday 20th June 2022
quotequote all
kingston12 said:
- I bought a new iPhone last year and after probably 200 charges it lasts noticeably less time than it did when it was new (the 'battery health' app claims that battery capacity is still at 100% of course!)
Is that also connected to an ever increasing amount of apps, etc. that use battery power being added to the phone?

kingston12

5,473 posts

156 months

Monday 20th June 2022
quotequote all
RedWhiteMonkey said:
kingston12 said:
- I bought a new iPhone last year and after probably 200 charges it lasts noticeably less time than it did when it was new (the 'battery health' app claims that battery capacity is still at 100% of course!)
Is that also connected to an ever increasing amount of apps, etc. that use battery power being added to the phone?
It could be, but my usage is fairly stable and I definitely have to charge it more often now than when it was new. I've had similar on previous phones as well, but as you say it could be down to increasing complexity of apps (or the OS itself) over time.

benny.c

3,473 posts

206 months

Monday 20th June 2022
quotequote all
My Levo is getting on for four years old and has done around 2.7K miles. I don’t look after the battery other than not letting it fully discharge. I always charge it to 100% and over winter it sometimes doesn’t get ridden for a month or so.

The Spesh app shows battery health at 100% (90 cycles) and I can’t say I’ve noticed any reduction in range. I think Spesh guaranty the battery will still be at min 75% of capacity after 300 cycles.

Pivo

1,082 posts

34 months

Tuesday 21st June 2022
quotequote all
nickfrog said:
Pivo said:
In my sinister opinion, most eBikes come from a megafactory in Taiwan, where they use standardized parts (Bosch, Shimano , Öhlins, Fox, …) make them well and stick different stickers for different companies.
Nothing sinister and nothing specific to eBikes. This is how MTBs in particular have been made for 30 years or so, using critical mass, economies of scale and specialist labour in TW, particularly welders.

A brand will design the frame / geo and choose the spec for a third party to make.
Exactly right! Taiwanese entrepreneurs specialise in OEM outsourcing, built to the original design and spec. If not for the sticker “maide in Taiwan” we would never know.

Petrus1983

8,522 posts

161 months

Tuesday 21st June 2022
quotequote all
I’m still dallying around trying to decide on one. Nice to see the Boardman shown a few pages back which is still high on m list. But then this cropped up on a FB ad -

https://motionracing.com/pages/williams-racing-ebi...

Seems quite nice - what am I missing?

Amateurish

7,697 posts

221 months

Tuesday 21st June 2022
quotequote all
Petrus1983 said:
I’m still dallying around trying to decide on one. Nice to see the Boardman shown a few pages back which is still high on m list. But then this cropped up on a FB ad -

https://motionracing.com/pages/williams-racing-ebi...

Seems quite nice - what am I missing?
Presumably that's just a cheapo rear hub motor ebike with naff Williams livery?

Petrus1983

8,522 posts

161 months

Tuesday 21st June 2022
quotequote all
Amateurish said:
Presumably that's just a cheapo rear hub motor ebike with naff Williams livery?
Lol - I think you could be right. Boardman it is laugh

Harpoon

1,860 posts

213 months

Tuesday 21st June 2022
quotequote all
GSE said:
I have an Orbea Gain with the X35 e-bikemotion system, typical use is 5 x 15+15 mile commutes per week, plus a longer 30-40 mile ride at the weekend, done about 3500 miles on it now. I try to keep the charge state between 25-75% which fits my commute perfectly, but it gets charged/discharged outside of those limits as well.
My cycle into the office is about 18 miles / 850ft climbing each way, taking about 1 hour 10 minutes. I did it a few times pre Covid and as we don't have a shower at the office, I was paying £25 a month for gym membership at a hotel round the corner just to shower.

Does the motor assistance make it easier enough to stay "fresh" and thus add the gym membership money to the man-maths to justify another bike? biggrin




MOBB

3,575 posts

126 months

Tuesday 21st June 2022
quotequote all
Petrus1983 said:
I’m still dallying around trying to decide on one. Nice to see the Boardman shown a few pages back which is still high on m list. But then this cropped up on a FB ad -

https://motionracing.com/pages/williams-racing-ebi...

Seems quite nice - what am I missing?
You'll probably break down or crash into walls a fair bit on that I suspect :-)

GSE

2,339 posts

238 months

Tuesday 21st June 2022
quotequote all
Harpoon said:
My cycle into the office is about 18 miles / 850ft climbing each way, taking about 1 hour 10 minutes. I did it a few times pre Covid and as we don't have a shower at the office, I was paying £25 a month for gym membership at a hotel round the corner just to shower.

Does the motor assistance make it easier enough to stay "fresh" and thus add the gym membership money to the man-maths to justify another bike? biggrin
biggrin Definitely!

I cancelled my gym membership when Covid started - the money I saved went towards a road bike to compliment the MTB and e-bike that I already had.

5 years ago I started commuting to work and most days I'd arrive in a sweaty mess, a shower was essential! 5 years later I'm a lot fitter - this is where e-bikes really help, once you've got your fitness up, if you feel like, it you can just cruise in on assistance, with no sweat.

gangzoom

6,254 posts

214 months

Wednesday 22nd June 2022
quotequote all
mike74 said:
Having done further research I'm reading that apparently the batteries will only last 3-4 years regardless of usage levels and how well you look after them, is that really the case?
Is that research written by the same people that claim EVs need new batteries after 3 years too, was there any mention of hydrogen been the future wink.

The degredation on my Boardman eBike is worse than on our Tesla, which is to be expected given one is literally some batteries cells stuffed into a bike frame the other a precision engineered battery pack with a labrtythn of cooling/heating elements running between the cells.

Even so, after 75 cycles the older battery I have is showing only 6% degredation. Assuming 30 miles per charge that's 2250 miles.



What's even more reassuring is that the newer battery with only 28 cycles is showing a degredation of 4%.

Essentially the cells in eBike mirror what you see in EV, a 5% drop quite quickly and than degredation slows down to almost nothing.



I believe these cells are rated for 300 cycles+, given how unstressed they are compared to EVs, with max discharge rare of barely 1C (versus 3C+ at peak accleration), and recharge rates of not even 0.2C (versus 3C on latest EVs), I suspect the battery pack on the Boardman will only hit 80% degredation way past 500 cycles, so 15k miles.

I also suspect I'll be able to just replace the cells in the battery pack versus buying a whole new battery, so the battery degredation costs on the eBike will be pennies per mile.

On the otherhand am budgeting a potential £20k bill for a new battery in our EV once the 8 year battery warranty is done. I estimate the car will be at 120k miles at that point so 16p per mile. Not cheap but not horrific either.

The eBike also does the equivalent of 120 miles per kWh versus 3 miles per kWh in the EV. So cheaper to run, far cheaper to get a battery for, better for my health, more fun, and reducing road congestion.......Apart from been a lazy blob, I struggle to think why I would use the EV for my work commute these days versus eBike smile.


Edited by gangzoom on Wednesday 22 June 07:04

emicen

8,558 posts

217 months

Wednesday 22nd June 2022
quotequote all
gangzoom said:
Is that research written by the same people that claim EVs need new batteries after 3 years too, was there any mention of hydrogen been the future wink.

The degredation on my Boardman eBike is worse than on our Tesla, which is to be expected given one is literally some batteries cells stuffed into a bike frame the other a precision engineered battery pack with a labrtythn of cooling/heating elements running between the cells.

Even so, after 75 cycles the older battery I have is showing only 6% degredation. Assuming 30 miles per charge that's 2250 miles.

[Img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52070805953_1a2e209b06_c_d.jpg[/thumb]

What's even more reassuring is that the newer battery with only 28 cycles is showing a degredation of 4%.

Essentially the cells in eBike mirror what you see in EV, a 5% drop quite quickly and than degredation slows down to almost nothing.

[Img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52076674997_787baf182a_c_d.jpg[/thumb]

I believe these cells are rated for 300 cycles+, given how unstressed they are compared to EVs, with max discharge rare of barely 1C (versus 3C+ at peak accleration), and recharge rates of not even 0.2C (versus 3C on latest EVs), I suspect the battery pack on the Boardman will only hit 80% degredation way past 500 cycles, so 15k miles.

I also suspect I'll be able to just replace the cells in the battery pack versus buying a whole new battery, so the battery degredation costs on the eBike will be pennies per mile.

On the otherhand am budgeting a potential £20k bill for a new battery in our EV once the 8 year battery warranty is done. I estimate the car will be at 120k miles at that point so 16p per mile. Not cheap but not horrific either.

The eBike also does the equivalent of 120 miles per kWh versus 3 miles per kWh in the EV. So cheaper to run, far cheaper to get a battery for, better for my health, more fun, and reducing road congestion.......Apart from been a lazy blob, I struggle to think why I would use the EV for my work commute these days versus eBike smile.
Is there trending available if you log in to a website rather than using an app?

Would be interested to see the degradation trend and what the typical percentage discharge is.

I keep coming back to the ADV8.9e for cycle to work duties, just need to get a bike fit done on my current clockwork 8.9 and see if I can sort the comfort issues before buying essentially the same bike again.

Harpoon

1,860 posts

213 months

Wednesday 22nd June 2022
quotequote all
GSE said:
biggrin Definitely!

I cancelled my gym membership when Covid started - the money I saved went towards a road bike to compliment the MTB and e-bike that I already had.

5 years ago I started commuting to work and most days I'd arrive in a sweaty mess, a shower was essential! 5 years later I'm a lot fitter - this is where e-bikes really help, once you've got your fitness up, if you feel like, it you can just cruise in on assistance, with no sweat.
Thanks. I reckon I have a decent level of fitness - I did a 130 mile ("normal") bike ride last Sunday, though a regular Sunday morning ride for me is around 50 to 60 miles. Avoiding the gym is really to save time and money (save £30 a month but spend way more on an eBike!).

The next search would be an road or gravel bike that ideally has pannier mounts. When I've cycled in previously I took a rucksack but that was stuffed with clothes, food and my laptop. I built up a winter hack / commuter bike that has panniers but Covid arrived and it's never been to the office (I have used it for shopping though).

I found the Cannondale Synapse Neo has rack mounts but I wonder if that is being replaced soon as not many places seem to even list them, never mind have stock.

GSE

2,339 posts

238 months

Thursday 23rd June 2022
quotequote all
gangzoom said:
Is that research written by the same people that claim EVs need new batteries after 3 years too, was there any mention of hydrogen been the future wink.

The degredation on my Boardman eBike is worse than on our Tesla, which is to be expected given one is literally some batteries cells stuffed into a bike frame the other a precision engineered battery pack with a labrtythn of cooling/heating elements running between the cells.

Even so, after 75 cycles the older battery I have is showing only 6% degredation. Assuming 30 miles per charge that's 2250 miles.

[Img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52070805953_1a2e209b06_c_d.jpg[/thumb]

What's even more reassuring is that the newer battery with only 28 cycles is showing a degredation of 4%.

Essentially the cells in eBike mirror what you see in EV, a 5% drop quite quickly and than degredation slows down to almost nothing.

[Img]https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/52076674997_787baf182a_c_d.jpg[/thumb]

I believe these cells are rated for 300 cycles+, given how unstressed they are compared to EVs, with max discharge rare of barely 1C (versus 3C+ at peak accleration), and recharge rates of not even 0.2C (versus 3C on latest EVs), I suspect the battery pack on the Boardman will only hit 80% degredation way past 500 cycles, so 15k miles.

I also suspect I'll be able to just replace the cells in the battery pack versus buying a whole new battery, so the battery degredation costs on the eBike will be pennies per mile.

On the otherhand am budgeting a potential £20k bill for a new battery in our EV once the 8 year battery warranty is done. I estimate the car will be at 120k miles at that point so 16p per mile. Not cheap but not horrific either.

The eBike also does the equivalent of 120 miles per kWh versus 3 miles per kWh in the EV. So cheaper to run, far cheaper to get a battery for, better for my health, more fun, and reducing road congestion.......Apart from been a lazy blob, I struggle to think why I would use the EV for my work commute these days versus eBike smile.
That's interesting.

Building a replacement battery pack for an e-bike shouldn't be that difficult, or expensive. But I suspect that the catch will be resetting the controller to 'accept' the new battery? 'No user serviceable parts / consult dealer' comes to mind. E-bikes should be made under the 'right to repair' principle, you can change just about every other component on a bike so why not the battery?