Is there 8 speed and 9 speed Sora?
Discussion
I built my son a lovely bike around a Planet X London Road f&f - simple "tow path" flat bar 1x8 with decent but budget-ish parts. Cost about £700 in total if you totted-up the value of some of the parts I used that I already had.
But, I only had an 8-speed (32-11) cassette and chain at the time, which I successfully paired with a Shimano Sora 9-speed shifter by setting the derailleur's higher limit to prevent it clicking that last time.
It's been very successful but I have been gifted a brand new 9-speed Shimano cassette (34-11) and chain which all bolted onto the bike easily enough but I cannot index the gears successfully.
I have checked that the hanger is straight (I have the Part Tool hanger straightener), and set the upper and lower limits. I have included 2 additional links to the chain above the original to account for the additional 2-teeth of 1st gear. The shifter is a Sora 9-speed and I definitely get 8-"clicks" in each direction if I relax the limiter screws (chain falls off but I wanted to prove this). The derailleur is a medium length one.
I can get the smaller 6 sprockets indexed quite nicely but not the larger ones. Going from 4 to 3, it always skips to 2. It's as if the derailleur is an 8-speed Sora and doesn't have the granularity to handle the 9-steps.
Is that possible? Nowhere on the derailleur does it mention it is tied to a specific number of steps. The only mention of steps is on the shifter.
I appreciate any help you can offer.
But, I only had an 8-speed (32-11) cassette and chain at the time, which I successfully paired with a Shimano Sora 9-speed shifter by setting the derailleur's higher limit to prevent it clicking that last time.
It's been very successful but I have been gifted a brand new 9-speed Shimano cassette (34-11) and chain which all bolted onto the bike easily enough but I cannot index the gears successfully.
I have checked that the hanger is straight (I have the Part Tool hanger straightener), and set the upper and lower limits. I have included 2 additional links to the chain above the original to account for the additional 2-teeth of 1st gear. The shifter is a Sora 9-speed and I definitely get 8-"clicks" in each direction if I relax the limiter screws (chain falls off but I wanted to prove this). The derailleur is a medium length one.
I can get the smaller 6 sprockets indexed quite nicely but not the larger ones. Going from 4 to 3, it always skips to 2. It's as if the derailleur is an 8-speed Sora and doesn't have the granularity to handle the 9-steps.
Is that possible? Nowhere on the derailleur does it mention it is tied to a specific number of steps. The only mention of steps is on the shifter.
I appreciate any help you can offer.
Caveat - not a pro bike mechanic, just a mamil that does his own spannering.
I think it's the shifter that you have to worry about. the Deralliur is passive and doesn't click etc - it's just a cable vs spring arrangement. The amount of cable that is pulled is set by the shifter.
IIRC 8 and 9 speed shifters and cogs in theory shouldn't be compatible. To be sure, google the exact shifter you have - great websites like sheldon brown and a lot on singletrack forums normally answer any silly questions I can find =)
I think it's the shifter that you have to worry about. the Deralliur is passive and doesn't click etc - it's just a cable vs spring arrangement. The amount of cable that is pulled is set by the shifter.
IIRC 8 and 9 speed shifters and cogs in theory shouldn't be compatible. To be sure, google the exact shifter you have - great websites like sheldon brown and a lot on singletrack forums normally answer any silly questions I can find =)
The answer, as ever, is Sheldon Brown.
As stated above it's the shifter that determines cable travel, however a 9spd shifter can be made to give the correct travel for an 8spd block (and vice versa) by using different cable routing onto the mech. Check the cable routing with Sheldon and trim the gears in 4th gear and you should be golden.
As stated above it's the shifter that determines cable travel, however a 9spd shifter can be made to give the correct travel for an 8spd block (and vice versa) by using different cable routing onto the mech. Check the cable routing with Sheldon and trim the gears in 4th gear and you should be golden.
I didn't think to look there. I'll check it out. Thanks.
Although the shifter is the index, I wondered whether the amount of travel determined by the indexing might be different for an 8 and 9 as the translation to the derailleur covers the same distance highest to lowest. It's the granularity that is different. However as my 9-speed shifter worked as an 8... Oh it's complex. I'll check out the oracle.
Thanks again.
Although the shifter is the index, I wondered whether the amount of travel determined by the indexing might be different for an 8 and 9 as the translation to the derailleur covers the same distance highest to lowest. It's the granularity that is different. However as my 9-speed shifter worked as an 8... Oh it's complex. I'll check out the oracle.
Thanks again.
Looks like I'm going about things the right way, and there is no 8-speed Sora - only 9-speed. I've looked through my records of when I came to own the various parts too and I can confirm they were labelled as 9-speed. I'm perplexed why it worked as an 8-speed now.
The adjustment screw that determines the distance of the cage from the larger sprocket is set right - there's no contact and the derailleur seems to hang a "decent" distance from the cassette all the way through the movement. The chain length wasn't very scientifically calculated so although it looks right, I'll have another look tomorrow. I will probably remove the derailleur completely and start all over with another check of the hanger and I'll relax the H limiter screw because that's not really necessary of the cable tension doesn't allow the chain to move beyond the smallest sprocket.
I don't have a lot of hope and I'm frustrated because I am usually competently mechanically-minded - I built a Caterham, including its engine, and I kept a TVR alive for a while (harder than building a Caterham). I can usually do everything on bikes but I confess gear indexing is the one thing that sometimes gets the better of me.
I'll report back.
The adjustment screw that determines the distance of the cage from the larger sprocket is set right - there's no contact and the derailleur seems to hang a "decent" distance from the cassette all the way through the movement. The chain length wasn't very scientifically calculated so although it looks right, I'll have another look tomorrow. I will probably remove the derailleur completely and start all over with another check of the hanger and I'll relax the H limiter screw because that's not really necessary of the cable tension doesn't allow the chain to move beyond the smallest sprocket.
I don't have a lot of hope and I'm frustrated because I am usually competently mechanically-minded - I built a Caterham, including its engine, and I kept a TVR alive for a while (harder than building a Caterham). I can usually do everything on bikes but I confess gear indexing is the one thing that sometimes gets the better of me.
I'll report back.
Thank the tech giants for online purchasing records. Looking back at when I originally bought the bits, they are:
Sora RD 3500 short cage derailleur 9-speed
Sora SL 3503 shift lever right hand 9-speed Z03R
My only concern is that they claim a short cage is only to be used up to a 32 tooth lower sprocket however two things:
1. Engaging that largest sprocket isn't the problem. It all indexes wrong at 3rd and 4th
2. Despite the description, the cage seems quite long. I assume we're talking about the distance between jockey wheels, or is it the distance between spigots on the parallelogram that I should be measuring?
Sora RD 3500 short cage derailleur 9-speed
Sora SL 3503 shift lever right hand 9-speed Z03R
My only concern is that they claim a short cage is only to be used up to a 32 tooth lower sprocket however two things:
1. Engaging that largest sprocket isn't the problem. It all indexes wrong at 3rd and 4th
2. Despite the description, the cage seems quite long. I assume we're talking about the distance between jockey wheels, or is it the distance between spigots on the parallelogram that I should be measuring?
Barchettaman said:
That should work fine.
Have you routed the cable through the pinch bolt correctly?
Is it running a 9-speed chain?
Yes and yes. Pinch bolt cable routing consistent with other bikes and actually unchanged from when it was successfully working as an 8-speed, and the chain is a brand new Shimano HG93. I'll stick a micrometer on it to check the outer measurement but it does fit comfortably between sprockets.Have you routed the cable through the pinch bolt correctly?
Is it running a 9-speed chain?
It's madness... but I'm going to strip it all off again tonight and start again with the hanger straightener, relax the limiters so that the chain is held on the H limit (smallest sprocket) by cable tension only, and take it from there.
Best of luck.
My questions weren’t questioning your competence, by the way, just troubleshooting and they were about the only things I could come up with!
If you set it up again and it STILL won’t work, try a 10-speed chain instead as a last resort. I’m running 9-speed drivetrain with a 10-speed SRAM chain on my commuter at the moment and it shifts really sweetly.
I can’t think of anything else....the bloody thing should be working fine!
My questions weren’t questioning your competence, by the way, just troubleshooting and they were about the only things I could come up with!
If you set it up again and it STILL won’t work, try a 10-speed chain instead as a last resort. I’m running 9-speed drivetrain with a 10-speed SRAM chain on my commuter at the moment and it shifts really sweetly.
I can’t think of anything else....the bloody thing should be working fine!
Have you changed the cable inners and outers in unison? The mech is a dumb ‘slave’ unit, as long as there’s enough spring and mech body length to cover the range of the cassette, they are governed by the mechanism in the shifter. I’d say it’s a safe bet that something is snagging the cable. Lube the cable inner and outer up, then re install, and check that all the grommets are firmly butted up and seated against the frame hooks, and the cable outers. Make sure the spring in the mech is moving smoothly, and that there’s no damage to any part of it ( can be caused by debris getting stuck in it, then causing damage when you shift ). Check the cable guide that’s screwed to the underside of the frame at the BB for damage and security as well.
Edited by GOATever on Wednesday 26th September 10:50
Barchettaman said:
Best of luck.
My questions weren’t questioning your competence, by the way, just troubleshooting and they were about the only things I could come up with!
I know. Sorry if I sounded defensive. Typing on a phone - sometimes I might be slightly more "brief" than intended and it may sound curt. Not intended. I thank you for your advice.My questions weren’t questioning your competence, by the way, just troubleshooting and they were about the only things I could come up with!
Barchettaman said:
If you set it up again and it STILL won’t work, try a 10-speed chain instead as a last resort. I’m running 9-speed drivetrain with a 10-speed SRAM chain on my commuter at the moment and it shifts really sweetly.
I can’t think of anything else....the bloody thing should be working fine!
A 10 speed chain is a good idea would certainly give more room to the sides to stop unwanted grinding. I can’t think of anything else....the bloody thing should be working fine!
The indexing between 4th and 3rd is so off, I think there's something more substantial wrong but I like that suggestion.
Thanks.
GOATever said:
Have you changed the cable inners and outers in unison? The mech is a dumb ‘slave’ unit, as long as there’s enough spring and mech body length to cover the range of the cassette, they are governed by the mechanism in the shifter. I’d say it’s a safe bet that something is snagging the cable. Lube the cable inner and outer up, then re install, and check that all the grommets are firmly butted up and seated against the frame hooks, and the cable outers. Make sure the spring in the mech is moving smoothly, and that there’s no damage to any part of it ( can be caused by debris getting stuck in it, then causing damage when you shift ).
Truth is, the bike is quite new and relatively little used. The cables were all new when installed last year and I have repeatedly kept them in perfect order with occasional sprays with GT85 and a wipe of any dust. It feels less like there's any binding and more like the indexing spaces are wrong *just* for these few sprockets. The others work well.Must be something subtle with my setup. I'll have another, more patient, go at it again tonight.
Thanks.
Interesting. There were no spacers included with the new cassette and none came off the old one.
The two smallest sprockets of both cassettes were loose but they can only slide onto the freehub in one orientation because of the splines, so they mated-up quite properly.
The cassette is an HG400. A colleague wondered if MTB and roadie cassettes might be spaced slightly differently to match slightly different indexes associated with the MTB or roadie levers. Although the HG400 is an MTB version, and so is consistent with the entire kit on this bike, we both decided there couldn't be a difference or it would be flagged all over Google.
The two smallest sprockets of both cassettes were loose but they can only slide onto the freehub in one orientation because of the splines, so they mated-up quite properly.
The cassette is an HG400. A colleague wondered if MTB and roadie cassettes might be spaced slightly differently to match slightly different indexes associated with the MTB or roadie levers. Although the HG400 is an MTB version, and so is consistent with the entire kit on this bike, we both decided there couldn't be a difference or it would be flagged all over Google.
Watchman said:
I'm going to strip it all off again tonight and start again with the hanger straightener, relax the limiters so that the chain is held on the H limit (smallest sprocket) by cable tension only, and take it from there.
I wonder if that's part of the problem - it should be sitting on the high limit screw with the cable removed. (And the barrel adjuster wound almost all the way in, not that it has any impact when the cable is disconnected, but you'll be ready to use it properly later).http://www.cyclist.co.uk/tutorials/74/how-to-adjus...
R_von_S said:
I wonder if that's part of the problem - it should be sitting on the high limit screw with the cable removed. (And the barrel adjuster wound almost all the way in, not that it has any impact when the cable is disconnected, but you'll be ready to use it properly later).
http://www.cyclist.co.uk/tutorials/74/how-to-adjus...
I usually set them up by setting the limiters first but Sheldon Brown suggests the H limiter is largely irrelevant if the tension is right to hold the derailleur on the smallest sprocket, and in that circumstance the tension should be right for all sprockets.http://www.cyclist.co.uk/tutorials/74/how-to-adjus...
He has a point. I'll give it a go.
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