MTB for a roadie vol 2: Help Choose The Next Bike!

MTB for a roadie vol 2: Help Choose The Next Bike!

Author
Discussion

GravelBen

15,655 posts

229 months

Sunday 24th April 2022
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To repeat myself a little from earlier in the thread (though you may have rejected that option for a reason), the Merida Big Trail 600 has similar spec and geo angles to the Big Al but has an XXL size option with 500mm reach. Depends whether its in your discount scheme and finding one in stock too though.

defblade

Original Poster:

7,395 posts

212 months

Sunday 24th April 2022
quotequote all
GravelBen said:
To repeat myself a little from earlier in the thread (though you may have rejected that option for a reason), the Merida Big Trail 600 has similar spec and geo angles to the Big Al but has an XXL size option with 500mm reach. Depends whether its in your discount scheme and finding one in stock too though.
Sorry, I missed replying to you... I did look for one, but as you guess, I couldn't find one in stock in the right places.
I just tried again and in fact, I only found one place that even had the XXL listed at all! (And it was out of stock...)

I suspect there probably would be at least twice as many bikes on my list in old fashioned "normal" times, but it seems those covid shortages are still firmly in place.

Bill

52,479 posts

254 months

Sunday 24th April 2022
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I suspect you'd be happy with any of them, but can't fault your reasoning.

BaronVonVaderham

2,316 posts

146 months

Sunday 24th April 2022
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Have you checked out bird bikes yet? UK designed and assembled hence you can spec exactly what you want.
I ended up with a gulf mclaren blue with orange hope bits biggrin

https://www.bird.bike/product-category/complete-bi...

I almost got a Ragley blue pig last year but the weight was just too high for a £2k bike.

W00DY

15,467 posts

225 months

Sunday 24th April 2022
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I think the Whyte will be a decent choice. They're never the cheapest, but always well designed and very nicely finished. Personally I'm not comfortable on a 500mm+ reach hardtail (at 6'4") and prefer something in the 480 range so I would recommend trying one if possible.

The On One Big Dog I rode felt heavy and dead. I wanted like it, but I just didn't.


defblade

Original Poster:

7,395 posts

212 months

Sunday 24th April 2022
quotequote all
BaronVonVaderham said:
Have you checked out bird bikes yet? UK designed and assembled hence you can spec exactly what you want.
I ended up with a gulf mclaren blue with orange hope bits biggrin

https://www.bird.bike/product-category/complete-bi...
Oh yes, very pretty, and reasonably priced... until you add a suspension fork biggrin


W00DY said:
Personally I'm not comfortable on a 500mm+ reach hardtail (at 6'4") and prefer something in the 480 range so I would recommend trying one if possible.
Oh, here we go again!
I'd love to try a few out, but there's nothing less than several hours' drive away - the downside of living in West Wales (but fantastic riding on or off road, when you get the right bike! wink ).

...


Ok, I'm back to writing this after going down the garage and doing some stack/reach research on my current bikes, and taking some photos.

So my road bike has a stack of 612mm, and a reach of 404mm (according to the manufacturer); with a 120mm stem I measured 515mm ish to the centre of the bars. My road bike fits me well, no probs doing 100k rides on it (so long as there's a burger van somewhere halfway or so wink ).

The Trek has a stack of 630mm, a reach of 440mm, a current reach to the bars of 490mm with the 90mm/35' rise stem and it would have been approx 540mm with it's original 120mm/7' stem on. The Trek felt quite comfy and familiar just riding around to me as a roadie with the original stem, but it put too much weight on my hands off road, and that weight felt too far to being over the front axle for descents.


I lined the 2 bikes level by BB centres as best I could. Turns out the chainstays are within 3mm of each other by official specs, and the saddles pretty much lined up - I've clearly got my rear triangle sorted.
What surprised me then was that the bars lined up in forward/backward terms to, although the mtb bars are obviously higher.






My head is starting to spin a bit now...
So the Trek has higher stack (with added stem rise) and lower reach, both of which would give a more upright position... and I just looked at the picture I posted above, and suddenly realised that I ride on the hoods 90% of the time on the road bike... back to garage , new road bike reach of 515 + 120 to the hoods = 635mm. That makes the figures make more sense; riding the tops is far more like the mtb position.


What I do know is that both an experienced amateur and very experienced/trained/accredited trainer have both said "...that bike does look a bit small for you, to be honest." I'm going to have lots of pics soon from the training day, but they've not turned up yet. I wonder if they would help pin down what would suit?



The Whyte has a stack of 658mm and a reach of 508 + 35mm stem = 543mm. That's back to about the same reach as the original stem on the Trek, but the stack is 28mm higher which would mitigate that a bit (?), and with a slacker head angle meaning the weight should be further behind the front axle... it's clearly all going to be interdependent, which makes everything just so much less clear jester

Then the Ragley is only 480mm reach, but with a 50mm stem to get 530mm overall, with 6mm less stack than the Whyte (still 22mm up on the Trek).

Easy to either way with stem size on the Ragley tune fit, but not so much if the Whyte feels too long...


I'm really not sure any of that has helped at all!
And, of course, to cap it all off, we're not really interested in how the thing rides when seated anyway beyond working "good enough" to get back to the top of the fun bits, so I can see that more reach and wheelbase gives a greater range of movement and therefore it should be easier to control?

take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey

5,071 posts

54 months

Sunday 24th April 2022
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Set of golf clubs instead? laugh

defblade

Original Poster:

7,395 posts

212 months

Monday 25th April 2022
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take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
Set of golf clubs instead? laugh
Gonna need a bike with rack mounts, then wink



I've been doing a lot of watching and reading this evening. The thing that looks most helpful is based off this video from Joy of Bike - essentially a way of making sure that you can best pivot around the bike in a natural arc using a measurement called RAD (I think someone forced that acronym a little wink ). Their formula puts my best reach at 482+-10mm. Your extra inch puts you up to 488+-11mm, so you're on to your 500mm reach.
The actual RAD distance (there's a linked video on measuring your own body's) can be worked out, if you can't actually measure the bike, by Pythagoras-ing the stack/(reach+stem)... it won't be perfect, but should be a good idea.

I'll be looking at my RAD height tomorrow (ok, today) and measuring my bikes to see how it works. Roughly, without direct measurements as I'm not going back down the garage past midnight, I think I'm about 800. The Trek is coming in at 768 from my maths, ie, too small/short/cramped; my road bike at 882 which is too long for an MTB and you get plenty of weight on your hands, but that's road.
Does look like it should give a way of balancing all the geo against my body and I've got a sneaky feeling the Ragley will be back in the lead as the first formula suggests 480mm would be my starting point, but I think I'll work through most/all the bikes on the list (and maybe a Merida Big Trail 600 in XL... I think I've seen those around!)


GravelBen

15,655 posts

229 months

Monday 25th April 2022
quotequote all
Definitely merit in the RAD method - after trial and error with stem length, spacers and bar rise etc to get a fit that felt right I learnt about RAD, checked it out and the RAD agreed almost spot on with where I'd ended up the slow way.

One more factor, many people prefer a bit shorter reach on a hardtail than they do a full sus because of the way geometry changes as the suspension sags. So its worth taking that into account if you are reading sizing advice based on full sus.

A hardtail gets longer and lower in the front because only the front sags, a full sus gets a bit shorter and the bottom bracket drops lower increasing stack. Basically RAD stays the same but the RAD angle changes in opposite ways, swapping some stack for reach (or vice versa).

Jeff Lenosky has a good video digging into it here:




From my own experience of that (at ~5'10" I'm often in between M and L sizes), I have a size M Giant Reign 29 (FS) and a size L Merida Big Trail (HT). They both have 455mm reach but I have a 50mm stem on the Reign and a 35mm Stem on the Merida, and the Merida still feels slightly longer.


Edited by GravelBen on Monday 25th April 02:00

take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey

5,071 posts

54 months

Monday 25th April 2022
quotequote all
The problem with RAD is that attempts to simply model a highly complex system which no one can agree on. For example, it doesn't really account for rider skill and terrain.

You only have to look at the various 'experiments" done on trying to establish whether mullet set ups are faster against the clock. The results very clearly show yes, no, maybe... It depends. laugh

For example, on a shorter bike a rider will have a much greater effect on the bike simply down to leverage. (narrow based pyramid vs wide).

It's why a lot of very skilled EWS riders choose to sise down on frames. A 10mm shift fwd / aft has a much greater effect on a shorter bike. Also the wheelbase is shorter and thus faster to turn due to its relative instability compared to a longer wheelbase.

Many pros favour instability / manoeuvrability over stability. They have the skill to make use of it.

For us lesser mortals, the extra length means the bike is more stable and more forgiving to mistakes in body position. The downsides are they're a little harder to turn at slow speeds and require a more deliberate and agressive body position changes to control the bike.

My Druid trail bike is 515mm IIRC. This is fun to pop off trail features, pumps tight twisty stuff fantastically well, but I find less forgiving at high speed and in the air.

My G1 and Pole hardtail are both 535mm with a disproportionately longer wheelbases. The G1 is much faster than the druid - but requires more effort in tighter turns and more deliberate and aggressive shifts in weight. I'll generally use the G1 for trails I've never ridden as it's more forgiving of my mediocrity.

MBR did a group test a while back that I think illustrates that point to a degree.



The presenter was second fastest on the Geometron G1 on his first ever ride on it riding a large {515mn} when he's normally a medium. Only half a second slower than the winner which was a bike he was highly familiar with.

It's a shame you're Wales based, if you were near the N York Moors, you could have come over and tried a load of XL frames ranging from 480ish to 535mm.

One thing which may help you decide... During your coaching session.... Did you enjoyed learning to wheelie and manual more than jumps and drops? A longer bike is a pig to manual and wheelie and hold it up over distance. But the longer bike is typically more forgiving on jumps and drops.

And a final point... Whatever you get will be night and day better than your current bike. If you do get the bug, the next step is full suspension, so it's cheaper to experiment with geometry on a hardtail. Also, It might help to go shorter as it be less of an extreme leap from your old bike.

defblade

Original Poster:

7,395 posts

212 months

Monday 25th April 2022
quotequote all
GravelBen said:
Definitely merit in the RAD method - after trial and error with stem length, spacers and bar rise etc to get a fit that felt right I learnt about RAD, checked it out and the RAD agreed almost spot on with where I'd ended up the slow way.
One more factor, many people prefer a bit shorter reach on a hardtail than they do a full sus because of the way geometry changes as the suspension sags. So its worth taking that into account if you are reading sizing advice based on full sus.
A hardtail gets longer and lower in the front because only the front sags, a full sus gets a bit shorter and the bottom bracket drops lower increasing stack. Basically RAD stays the same but the RAD angle changes in opposite ways, swapping some stack for reach (or vice versa).
Jeff Lenosky has a good video digging into it here:

From my own experience of that (at ~5'10" I'm often in between M and L sizes), I have a size M Giant Reign 29 (FS) and a size L Merida Big Trail (HT). They both have 455mm reach but I have a 50mm stem on the Reign and a 35mm Stem on the Merida, and the Merida still feels slightly longer.
Suspension changing the geo is something I've pretty much decided to ignore... it's going to happen on all bikes, and I'm having enough trouble trying to work out the basics! I'll watch the vid later (and TGCOFTD's as well)



take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
The problem with RAD is that attempts to simply model a highly complex system which no one can agree on. For example, it doesn't really account for rider skill and terrain.
Absolutely, but it is the first thing I've found that makes some sense of the variables in geo... and can be roughly applied buying online.

take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
(lots of sizing stuff)

It's a shame you're Wales based, if you were near the N York Moors, you could have come over and tried a load of XL frames ranging from 480ish to 535mm.

One thing which may help you decide... During your coaching session.... Did you enjoyed learning to wheelie and manual more than jumps and drops? A longer bike is a pig to manual and wheelie and hold it up over distance. But the longer bike is typically more forgiving on jumps and drops.

And a final point... Whatever you get will be night and day better than your current bike. If you do get the bug, the next step is full suspension, so it's cheaper to experiment with geometry on a hardtail. Also, It might help to go shorter as it be less of an extreme leap from your old bike.
Yeah, N Yorks is a bit of a drive from here!

The bit I enjoyed most was learning small drops... but that maybe because having been sent OTB by one 3 weeks ago, they were also my biggest fear in process. He taught me hanging-off-the-back, which works ok but I wasn't a massive fan of, then crouching-over-the-front-and-pushing-down which is brilliant and really clicked immediately. I may also have been getting a little air at the end of my faster and more confident runs which also felt far more natural than I ever expected. Manuals... well, I can now get the front wheel a few inches up for a bike length which obviously will help with bigger drops/jumps eventually, but that needs practise.

And again, yes, I know whichever bike will be a big improvement, and really feed into all the stuff I learnt at the weekend - watching a couple of vids, it's definitely the "new style" rather than "old skool" styles of riding that felt good to me, even on an old skool bike.

W00DY

15,467 posts

225 months

Monday 25th April 2022
quotequote all
I think you need to buy the bike you want and not spend too much time obsessing over the details (apologies that my input didn't help in that regard). There are no absolute rules and geometry is forever changing. All the options have a much slacker head angle and more length than your Trek which will definitely give you a lot more confidence and make an OTB much less likely.

take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey

5,071 posts

54 months

Monday 25th April 2022
quotequote all
Just picking up on something you said re being told to hang off the back. It may be lost in translation - hopefully it is - but this is poor advice.

Hanging off the back is a consequence not a goal in itself. Anyone giving this advice is coaching based on what they've observed rather understanding of the biomechanics.

The idea is to keep your centre mass between the axles. So if your bike pitches fwd, then your body must compensate to keep your weight centred. In the extreme, you look like you're hanging off the back.

The key difference though is by staying centred, you are optimising grip.

The problem with being told to lean back is that you have no reference point for how much. a relatively inexperienced rider will typically over do it as feeling like you are leaning fwd down the fall line is scary. This means you bias the weight to the rear and lose steering and braking control.

Apologies, for the unsolicited advice. I've seen a few big crashes over the years were experienced riders have coached their mates to lean back on the downs. The resultant stack has put them off biking - and MTB is one of the best sports to do (IMO).

Enjoy the bike search!


GCH

3,984 posts

201 months

Monday 25th April 2022
quotequote all
Missed this thread.
I have a 2021 ragley big al.... although I bought the 2.0 in purple, not the 1.0 in red that you are looking at, and I made that choice because of the colour.
It is an AMAZING bike. Seriously, it's so, so good..it has gained a lot of fans - hartailparty on youtube was one of the first to review it, which I am sure you have seen in your research. The big wig is absolutely identical to the big al in geometry, just in steel vs alu.
I ride a size L, and the XL is bang on for your height.

Stock has been practically non-existent for ages due to covid and popularity - restocks on CRC/wiggle (who own ragley, along with nukeproof, and vitus) genuinely sell out in minutes - so if, as you appear to have done, you can find one in stock in your size , especially at the price you give with your scheme, jump on it. XLs don't sell out as fast, so that might be your saving grace here. Do it - you won't regret it.




Edited by GCH on Monday 25th April 21:25

defblade

Original Poster:

7,395 posts

212 months

Monday 25th April 2022
quotequote all
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
Just picking up on something you said re being told to hang off the back. It may be lost in translation - hopefully it is - but this is poor advice.
{big cut of good advice}
I saw it shown exactly in a video yesterday. My coach said there's 2 ways to do drops, he calls them "passenger" and "pilot".
Passenger is this: https://youtu.be/k0E4ZuwbNb8?t=55
Pilot is this: https://youtu.be/k0E4ZuwbNb8?t=225
Once I'd tried pilot, I refused to go back to passenger on the next set smile



GCH said:
Missed this thread.
I have a 2021 ragley big al.... although I bought the 2.0 in purple, not the 1.0 in red that you are looking at, and I made that choice because of the colour.
It is an AMAZING bike. Seriously, it's so, so good..it has gained a lot of fans - hartailparty on youtube was one of the first to review it, which I am sure you have seen in your research. The big wig is absolutely identical to the big al in geometry, just in steel vs alu.
I ride a size L, and the XL is bang on for your height.

Stock has been practically non-existent for ages due to covid and popularity - restocks on CRC/wiggle (who own ragley, along with nukeproof, and vitus) genuinely sell out in minutes - so if, as you appear to have done, you can find one in stock in your size , especially at the price you give with your scheme, jump on it. XLs don't sell out as fast, so that might be your saving grace here. Do it - you won't regret it.
Yes, all the numbers I'm crunching at the moment seem to point to it... although I keep going back to the pics of a 6'2" guy on the Whyte and he looks happy enough...

ETA: also just had a quick message with someone also 6'4" on an XL 629, he said it was fine, quite upright...


Edited by defblade on Tuesday 26th April 00:05

take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey

5,071 posts

54 months

Tuesday 26th April 2022
quotequote all
Cool... Glad it was a lost in translation. Good coach then!

Check out the range of fluid ride vids. They're a fantastic coaching resource. He has a superb ability to break down complex bike skills into stuff that can be easily understood.

There's a third way to do drops when you get the new bike...

https://youtu.be/d20ISxtBAvg


GCH

3,984 posts

201 months

Tuesday 26th April 2022
quotequote all
Which size chart are you looking at?
Ragley's own chart http://ragleybikes.com/products/big-al-2-0-complet... gives XL as 190 - 200 cm, which is 6'2" to 6'5"


At 6'4" you are spot on for that range. Mine is a size L and their chart is accurate for my height.
Get it bought!

Edited by GCH on Tuesday 26th April 15:02

defblade

Original Poster:

7,395 posts

212 months

Wednesday 27th April 2022
quotequote all
GCH said:
Get it bought!
Working on it now smile
Turns out the B2W voucher thing makes it all a bit more complicated, so hopefully the bike (don't know if they've got more than one...) won't disappear in the meantime, as they won't reserve one for you.
But on the bright side, if it does vanish, there's a good few places with 629s in XL wink

defblade

Original Poster:

7,395 posts

212 months

Thursday 16th June 2022
quotequote all
Finally!!!!!



smilesmilesmile





Only unpacked it so far, putting pedals on, protection kit, etc will have to wait for the weekend.


In the meantime, the paint on the welding by the hanger has picked up some rubbing in transit, clean through to the metal in a couple of small patches.
Is this worth complaining to the retailer about, or just accept and forget?
I don't really buy enough new bikes to know what is or isn't acceptable.


take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey

5,071 posts

54 months

Thursday 16th June 2022
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Not remotely acceptable. I had similar on my last hardtail. Replace or freebies were the the choices... They picked this up before dispatch though.

Issue is limited availability though. Push for a freebie. It won't affect the bike.