Why is the UK at war with e-Bikes?
Discussion
Craikeybaby said:
Even in the case of private bike parks, they are mixing with regular mountain bikes, which can lead to speed differences, especially on trails with some climbing.
Never had any issues with speed differential, be that riding an eMTB, an MTB or a eMTB thats been chipped...everyone I've ever encountered has been courteous from all perspectives, and thats over a few thousand miles at various Welsh bike parks and our local spots. It feels like an issue is being made where none exists...at least from in my experience.z4RRSchris said:
legal options: 15.5, small battery, slow
illegal options: 40mph, can link a few batteries together, NO TAX, INSURANCE, LICENSE, MOT, FINES for LTNS / SPEED
Moped: Expensive, maintenance, MOT, TAX, INSURANCE, CBT, HELMET, and fines
They aren't meaningfully more expensive than anything other than the DIY kits fitted to whatever used bike you have. The legal e-bikes are all pretty expensive and the better "non-road-legal" options are seriously pricey too. Insurance/mot/tax is maybe 200 a year, really breaking the bank. Do you value your life so little that faceplanting into street furniture at 30 mph without protection is an attractive option over wearing a helmet?illegal options: 40mph, can link a few batteries together, NO TAX, INSURANCE, LICENSE, MOT, FINES for LTNS / SPEED
Moped: Expensive, maintenance, MOT, TAX, INSURANCE, CBT, HELMET, and fines
Edited by hidetheelephants on Wednesday 2nd April 16:15
911hope said:
sjg said:
Yes. The point is to assist, and a 250W bike gives enough to make any hill easier than pedalling a non-assist bike on the flat.
250w is far beyond the capability of most cyclists.A feeble old lady can beat a good cyclist up a proper hill on an e bike.
There is a long hill near my house and I regularly see a couple of retired/elderly cyclists on e-bikes cruise up it at a fair old pace with what seems like very little effort at the pedals. Even the people who appear to very keen lycra clad cyclists struggle going up it, really standing up and pumping the pedals, and they probably wouldn't catch the two elderly cyclists on their e-bikes sat casually in the saddle like they were going along on flat ground.
I was making the point that 250w seems plenty. I had a go on a legal 250w e-bike on maximum assist setting and I was quite shocked at how much the work is done by the motor as soon as you lightly pedal.
But other cyclists suggested I was very wrong and that you still needed to put large amounts of effort in when riding a 250w bike. Maybe they have ridden a different one to me.
A bit of research suggests that a well trained amateur cyclist, in a good state of fitness, weighing 70kg, can produce between 175 and 200 watts.
A professional cyclist in a very high state of fitness, such as a Tour de France competitor, of 70kg, can churn out about 350-400 watts.
Edited by Mont Blanc on Wednesday 2nd April 16:35
hidetheelephants said:
Do you value your life so little that faceplanting into street furniture at 30 mph without protection is an attractive option over wearing a helmet?
Thinking back to when I was last in East London (Whitechapel, Bow), where I saw the most delivery guys on shonky e bikes, they didn’t seem too interested in head protection. So no, they didn’t seem to value their lives much. Quite a lot of fairly questionable riding going on, too. But I saw plenty of nonsense commuting on a bike from all road users TBF.
Mont Blanc said:
I said exactly this in a different thread and got shouted down for it.
There is a long hill near my house and I regularly see a couple of retired/elderly cyclists on e-bikes cruise up it at a fair old pace with what seems like very little effort at the pedals. Even the people who appear to very keen lycra clad cyclists struggle going up it, really standing up and pumping the pedals, and they probably wouldn't catch the two elderly cyclists on their e-bikes sat casually in the saddle like they were going along on flat ground.
I was making the point that 250w seems plenty. I had a go on a legal 250w e-bike on maximum assist setting and I was quite shocked at how much the work is done by the motor as soon as you lightly pedal.
But other cyclists suggested I was very wrong and that you still needed to put large amounts of effort in when riding a 250w bike. Maybe they have ridden a different one to me.
A bit of research suggests that a well trained amateur cyclist, in a good state of fitness, weighing 70kg, can produce between 175 and 200 watts.
A professional cyclist in a very high state of fitness, such as a Tour de France competitor, of 70kg, can churn out about 350-400 watts.
You are correct.. an e bike rider with 250w does have a very easy job of it. There is a long hill near my house and I regularly see a couple of retired/elderly cyclists on e-bikes cruise up it at a fair old pace with what seems like very little effort at the pedals. Even the people who appear to very keen lycra clad cyclists struggle going up it, really standing up and pumping the pedals, and they probably wouldn't catch the two elderly cyclists on their e-bikes sat casually in the saddle like they were going along on flat ground.
I was making the point that 250w seems plenty. I had a go on a legal 250w e-bike on maximum assist setting and I was quite shocked at how much the work is done by the motor as soon as you lightly pedal.
But other cyclists suggested I was very wrong and that you still needed to put large amounts of effort in when riding a 250w bike. Maybe they have ridden a different one to me.
A bit of research suggests that a well trained amateur cyclist, in a good state of fitness, weighing 70kg, can produce between 175 and 200 watts.
A professional cyclist in a very high state of fitness, such as a Tour de France competitor, of 70kg, can churn out about 350-400 watts.
Edited by Mont Blanc on Wednesday 2nd April 16:35
A cyclist able to provide 250w for more than 5 minutes is probably well within the top 1% of the population.
They can be spotted from a long distance just by looking at their posture. No upper body movement is a dead giveaway.
The people who say otherwise are just defending their choice to take the easy way of cycling.
E bikes are fine for people who have injuries, age or illness that makes the help necessary. For all others it is a path to lower fitness.
911hope said:
sjg said:
Yes. The point is to assist, and a 250W bike gives enough to make any hill easier than pedalling a non-assist bike on the flat.
250w is far beyond the capability of most cyclists.A feeble old lady can beat a good cyclist up a proper hill on an e bike.
But then the old lady can probably put 75w out so you're not competing with 250, more like 325 and even then most ebikes seem to have higher peak outputs so you're competing with even more.
ChocolateFrog said:
Most people maybe but not most cyclists. I could just about knock a 250w FTP out now if I put some effort in and I'm very far from a decent cyclist.
But then the old lady can probably put 75w out so you're not competing with 250, more like 325 and even then most ebikes seem to have higher peak outputs so you're competing with even more.
250w equates to doing about 23mph on the flat. That performance level overlaps with the lower end of competitive cyclists, which is probably the top 5% of cyclists at the most.But then the old lady can probably put 75w out so you're not competing with 250, more like 325 and even then most ebikes seem to have higher peak outputs so you're competing with even more.
FTP is sustained power over 1 hour. 250w is quite good for a cyclist.
There are three problems with e bikes.
1st, knob heads who use them in an illegal way and commit crimes with them.
2nd, the government have not found a way to regulate and tax them.
C, the real cyclists feel like ebikes are cheating and not real cycling like what they do.
IV, lastly, the "think of the children" and "arrgh the danger" folks who wet themselves at the slightest thing firmly believe we all should be wearing waterproof safety pants all the time so ebikes are just too much for them to comprehend. So must be banned.
1st, knob heads who use them in an illegal way and commit crimes with them.
2nd, the government have not found a way to regulate and tax them.
C, the real cyclists feel like ebikes are cheating and not real cycling like what they do.
IV, lastly, the "think of the children" and "arrgh the danger" folks who wet themselves at the slightest thing firmly believe we all should be wearing waterproof safety pants all the time so ebikes are just too much for them to comprehend. So must be banned.
911hope said:
E bikes are fine for people who have injuries, age or illness that makes the help necessary. For all others it is a path to lower fitness.
Probably best not open up that can of worms, plus it's been discussed to death elsewhere.With regards to speed differences on trails, can't say I've seen a problem anywhere I've ridden over the past 12 months - plus these sinewy types on XC bikes climb faster than me on my eMTB.
Though they're generally not towing 70kgs of 7yr old on his own 24" MTB...
Getragdogleg said:
There are three problems with e bikes.
1st, knob heads who use them in an illegal way and commit crimes with them.
2nd, the government have not found a way to regulate and tax them.
C, the real cyclists feel like ebikes are cheating and not real cycling like what they do.
IV, lastly, the "think of the children" and "arrgh the danger" folks who wet themselves at the slightest thing firmly believe we all should be wearing waterproof safety pants all the time so ebikes are just too much for them to comprehend. So must be banned.
Is C really a thing? How can they be cheating if they're not competing in a race?1st, knob heads who use them in an illegal way and commit crimes with them.
2nd, the government have not found a way to regulate and tax them.
C, the real cyclists feel like ebikes are cheating and not real cycling like what they do.
IV, lastly, the "think of the children" and "arrgh the danger" folks who wet themselves at the slightest thing firmly believe we all should be wearing waterproof safety pants all the time so ebikes are just too much for them to comprehend. So must be banned.
If I'm walking to work and I see someone going to work on an e-scooter I don't think to myself 'Hey he's cheating, why isn't he walking to work like me? No fair!'
911hope said:
E bikes are fine for people who have injuries, age or illness that makes the help necessary. For all others it is a path to lower fitness.
Jesus. What about my perfectly fit wife, who rides and e assist bike because she doesn’t enjoy rocking up to the office all sweaty after a hilly commute from our village? ‘Lower fitness’? What, lower than driving the car in to work?Some people really need to engage what little brain they have before posting.
Barchettaman said:
Jesus. What about my perfectly fit wife, who rides and e assist bike because she doesn’t enjoy rocking up to the office all sweaty after a hilly commute from our village? ‘Lower fitness’? What, lower than driving the car in to work?
Some people really need to engage what little brain they have before posting.
Certainly less fit than cycling!Some people really need to engage what little brain they have before posting.
Humans are programmed to save energy. Doesn't mean it is good for you.
Barchettaman said:
Jesus. What about my perfectly fit wife, who rides and e assist bike because she doesn’t enjoy rocking up to the office all sweaty after a hilly commute from our village? ‘Lower fitness’? What, lower than driving the car in to work?
Some people really need to engage what little brain they have before posting.
He's just a low effort troll. Probably wrote that post with belly poking out of his t shirt with Dorito dust on his keyboard. Do as I say not as I do etcSome people really need to engage what little brain they have before posting.
911hope said:
Barchettaman said:
Jesus. What about my perfectly fit wife, who rides and e assist bike because she doesn’t enjoy rocking up to the office all sweaty after a hilly commute from our village? ‘Lower fitness’? What, lower than driving the car in to work?
Some people really need to engage what little brain they have before posting.
Certainly less fit than cycling!Some people really need to engage what little brain they have before posting.
Humans are programmed to save energy. Doesn't mean it is good for you.
It depends where you are starting from and what your aim is. When I was cycle commuting, I didn't use an ebike precisely because I did it to keep fit. Yes I had to change and shower but it was 'free exercise' as well as being more enjoyable and reliable than the trains.
So if you are coming to an ebike from a pedal cycle, you will get less fit unless you make up for it elsewhere. If you are coming to an ebike from a car or PT, you will at least be doing some exercise during a time when you would otherwise mostly be sitting on your backside.
So if you are coming to an ebike from a pedal cycle, you will get less fit unless you make up for it elsewhere. If you are coming to an ebike from a car or PT, you will at least be doing some exercise during a time when you would otherwise mostly be sitting on your backside.
Acuity30 said:
Is C really a thing? How can they be cheating if they're not competing in a race?
If I'm walking to work and I see someone going to work on an e-scooter I don't think to myself 'Hey he's cheating, why isn't he walking to work like me? No fair!'
Yeah! If I'm walking to work and I see someone going to work on an e-scooter I don't think to myself 'Hey he's cheating, why isn't he walking to work like me? No fair!'
I used to (small minded) think like that - anybody that wasn't also slogging away on a MTB frame and offroad tyres were cheating, even efficient narrow tyre hybrids and racers. If I go back to regular commuting cycling either by a forced hand or 100% choice I'll choose chilled, albeit happier to slog unassisted on the way home. Acuity30 said:
He's just a low effort troll. Probably wrote that post with belly poking out of his t shirt with Dorito dust on his keyboard. Do as I say not as I do etc
Ouch...I know how to solve this problem. Just get my chipped e-bike set up on the turbo trainer!
Break records and get fit at the same time.
Acuity30 said:
Is C really a thing? How can they be cheating if they're not competing in a race?
If I'm walking to work and I see someone going to work on an e-scooter I don't think to myself 'Hey he's cheating, why isn't he walking to work like me? No fair!'
Full disclosure, I really don't fully understand all this watts talk and to be honest I don't really care either... I predominantly ride a silly big eMTB as whilst I'm not "unfit" it has hugely opened up what I can ride and how far I can ride it with out needing a paramedic to administer oxygen and yes, if I were fitter then blah blah blah... but I have a life so I can't dedicate hours a week to becoming super fit. If I'm walking to work and I see someone going to work on an e-scooter I don't think to myself 'Hey he's cheating, why isn't he walking to work like me? No fair!'
I also ride a big eMTB as frankly, it scares me at times and I need that... keeps the heart rate up. It's also used a lot of the time for towing my little boy up to the top off big hills to then hurl ourselves back down. We regularly do 20 miles and about 2000ft of climbs and according to my fancy pants computer / controller, when I'm in full blown towing mode on a climb I'm apparently pushing 180 to 200 watts of effort and that, I think means I'm putting in quite an effort even with the assistance, though I ride mine at mid settings purely to give myself a workout.
I've been riding MTB for years, like 25 years and whilst age is now working against me... I'm no less fit having ridden the eMTB for the past year or so than I was when I was riding my normal bike. Granted yes, you pass guys who are puffing away up the climbs and I think I've only had a couple of "cheater" based comments but all done in good nature. Most the time guys on analogue bikes are amused by and encouraging of the fact I'm getting a 7yr old to the top of places that he would have no chance of doing under his own steam and that I'd have no chance of getting him to if it wasn't for an eMTB assisting, thus in turn he's also been riding a serious amount of downhill stuff over the past few months and his fitness and skills have taken a leap forwards and to an extent, as have mine. But ultimately it's brilliant fun, it's not a huge chore and so we're doing it regularly and enjoying it.
But yes... an EMTB is cheating and for lazy or injured people...
Utter pish.
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