Why is the UK at war with e-Bikes?
Discussion
Xcore said:
They have not found a way to tax them yet.
Ding , ding, ding. We have a winner end of thread. This government don’t want you having tax free mobility.
If they could tax walking and pure peddle bikes to be used on the road they would. But unfortunately for them cycling and walking has health and environment benefits so it would be political suicide to try and tax them.
Imagine someone never paying a penny in fuel duty and VED. Or taxes from buses, trains, taxi or dramatically reducing there use ( and thus tax’s) due to a e-bike that could be charged free of charge from the wind / sun.
The government would s
t the bed. I used to do a 20 mile each way commute (no viable public transport) I did cycle it a few times but it was hard going especially if the wind was in the wrong direction.
If I had been able to jump on an e-bike that could do that 20 mile journey without me having to bust a gut I would have done that in a heart beat if legal. But no instead I needed to run a vehicle and pay all the associated tax’s.
It’s most likely really down to being a easy target and the laws being so slow to change in the mean time the police have to look to do something as there’s so much buzz about them
In reality, if they where legal and people could buy and ride safe ones then it might actually fit the governments active travel plans
You see plenty of the e scooters and e bikes run by companies you can rent on an app, I assume they’re limited top speed and the scooters have indicators etc, but are they insured?
In reality, if they where legal and people could buy and ride safe ones then it might actually fit the governments active travel plans
You see plenty of the e scooters and e bikes run by companies you can rent on an app, I assume they’re limited top speed and the scooters have indicators etc, but are they insured?
I live in London. Food delivery couriers use parks and cycle lanes that are shared with footpaths all the time. Their bikes are all throttle operated and far quicker and heavier than road bikes. There are more and more ballied up lads on Surrons as well. These are quick and the riders have no training, insurance or consideration for others.
If you live in the arse end of nowhere it’s easy to perhaps think -‘well, what’s the harm?’ That’s because you are only considering how you use your own throttle operated, self converted bike. Perhaps with some respect for others. Watching teens do donuts in the park on surrons, whizzing in and out past other people and dogs is just not on. If they hit someone and cause serious injury, then even in the event they are caught, all they can be is ‘sorry’.
Their parents are even worse. They enable it.
If you live in the arse end of nowhere it’s easy to perhaps think -‘well, what’s the harm?’ That’s because you are only considering how you use your own throttle operated, self converted bike. Perhaps with some respect for others. Watching teens do donuts in the park on surrons, whizzing in and out past other people and dogs is just not on. If they hit someone and cause serious injury, then even in the event they are caught, all they can be is ‘sorry’.
Their parents are even worse. They enable it.
hidetheelephants said:
Oh no! The Man's sticking it to me! I have to pay a whopping £25 a year! Get a grip.Tel me how you run a car for a year and only pay £25 a year in fuel duty and tax’s.
Even if you run an EV your paying taxes on your insurance, VED (from April), VAT on your electricity bill if charging from home (and don’t expect with all these smart chargers to be able to continue using cheap rate electricity to charge your EV forever, that lovely smart charger is going to be used to charge you tax on your electricity used for your car .
So come on then tell me how you do it for £25. An e-bike I recon I could charge from solar with the use of a power bank I already have for days when the solar is less. There might be the odd time I have to plug it in to the mains so I suppose I would be paying the reduced rate vat on that.
Either way I could be doing 20-30 miles a day fuel duty and tax free.
John Henry said:
I live in London. Food delivery couriers use parks and cycle lanes that are shared with footpaths all the time. Their bikes are all throttle operated and far quicker and heavier than road bikes. There are more and more ballied up lads on Surrons as well. These are quick and the riders have no training, insurance or consideration for others.
If you live in the arse end of nowhere it’s easy to perhaps think -‘well, what’s the harm?’ That’s because you are only considering how you use your own throttle operated, self converted bike. Perhaps with some respect for others. Watching teens do donuts in the park on surrons, whizzing in and out past other people and dogs is just not on. If they hit someone and cause serious injury, then even in the event they are caught, all they can be is ‘sorry’.
Their parents are even worse. They enable it.
True, need to be controlled.If you live in the arse end of nowhere it’s easy to perhaps think -‘well, what’s the harm?’ That’s because you are only considering how you use your own throttle operated, self converted bike. Perhaps with some respect for others. Watching teens do donuts in the park on surrons, whizzing in and out past other people and dogs is just not on. If they hit someone and cause serious injury, then even in the event they are caught, all they can be is ‘sorry’.
Their parents are even worse. They enable it.
MB140 said:
hidetheelephants said:
Oh no! The Man's sticking it to me! I have to pay a whopping £25 a year! Get a grip.Tel me how you run a car for a year and only pay £25 a year in fuel duty and tax’s.
Even if you run an EV your paying taxes on your insurance, VED (from April), VAT on your electricity bill if charging from home (and don’t expect with all these smart chargers to be able to continue using cheap rate electricity to charge your EV forever, that lovely smart charger is going to be used to charge you tax on your electricity used for your car .
So come on then tell me how you do it for £25. An e-bike I recon I could charge from solar with the use of a power bank I already have for days when the solar is less. There might be the odd time I have to plug it in to the mains so I suppose I would be paying the reduced rate vat on that.
Either way I could be doing 20-30 miles a day fuel duty and tax free.
hidetheelephants said:
MB140 said:
Go on then I will respond once.
Tel me how you run a car for a year and only pay £25 a year in fuel duty and tax’s.
What in the wide world of sports are you on about? An e-motorbike costs £25 to tax, or rather will from April.Tel me how you run a car for a year and only pay £25 a year in fuel duty and tax’s.
hidetheelephants said:
They can travel at the same speed as a decent cyclist, just not with electric assistance. Want to go faster? Get a licence and an e-moped or e-motorbike.
They can't. 15.5mph with 250w is not enough power or speed to stay amongst a pack of MAMIL. Mine does not a smidge over 30mph (I wondered if that was a software limit) and I found most high intensity cyclists would cruise around the 22mph mark but could get up to 28mph in a sprint.
The problem with peddling above 15.5mph is both the weight of the bike and dimensions of it. Most hybrid conversions are on mountain bikes with smaller wheels and shorter cranks (I've not seen any racing bike conversions) and with the best will in the world you ain't sustaining a speed of more than 15.5mph after the bike has become so compromised. Without the battery and motor working it is almost impossible to ride.
Talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it. If you want to go 30mph buy an electric motorcycle/moped and do it properly. If you want a bicycle have a bicycle. It’s not like they are much cheaper than a bloody moped.
I know you have to have a licence etc, but good. People buzzing around at 30+mph on an e-bike should be.
I know you have to have a licence etc, but good. People buzzing around at 30+mph on an e-bike should be.
ingenieur said:
How fast on shared paths etc? Doesn't seem to be a problem for cars? If you own a Ferrari do you drive it at 150mph in a 30 zone?
How powerful? I would advocate no power limit is necessary. Power limits make use for delivery vehicles difficult as 250w will get you nowhere if you've got 50kg of deliveries onboard.
Risk of dodgy electrics. My kit was plug and play. I didn't have to wire anything myself. Same as any other import of electronics from the far east.
Children on bikes has always been a bit of a dodgy one. I could do 30mph down a hill on my bike before it was converted. I don't see what you can really do about that without legislating against gravity or whatever.
Perhaps the delineation between e-bike and full scooter would be tyre size and overall vehicle weight. Maybe that's where the law should be drawing the line rather than setting a low speed and wattage.
You sound like a responsible and caring user. However, if the driving standards on the roads show us anything it is that most users are selfish, ignorant and happy to flout Highway Code and laws on the roads. Even more so on two wheels while mixing it up with granny on the shared path or passing the local primary at kicking out time....How powerful? I would advocate no power limit is necessary. Power limits make use for delivery vehicles difficult as 250w will get you nowhere if you've got 50kg of deliveries onboard.
Risk of dodgy electrics. My kit was plug and play. I didn't have to wire anything myself. Same as any other import of electronics from the far east.
Children on bikes has always been a bit of a dodgy one. I could do 30mph down a hill on my bike before it was converted. I don't see what you can really do about that without legislating against gravity or whatever.
Perhaps the delineation between e-bike and full scooter would be tyre size and overall vehicle weight. Maybe that's where the law should be drawing the line rather than setting a low speed and wattage.
You have a proper kit and have thought it out - the 16 year old ned down the road just wants POWAAAHH and will bolt any old s
te to a Halfords BSO they dragged from the garden with a disconnected front brake and cracked tyres - and then they want to get up to 30 and more while weaving around 2.5ton behomoth cars....it is a recipe for disaster.I think the point of a low speed of pedalec bikes and that they are pedal-assisted is to avoid the issues of weight and speed, both of which contribute to worse outcomes in accidents. The laws are designed so that a pedalec bike is not any faster than a human only powered bike, so making sharing of space easier and reducing the need for any requirements of the rider.
We all accept risk in our lives, and as a society we have 'normed' some of this. Things like driving comes with the risk of a crash, using hot flames to cook our evening meal, teaching children to swim etc. These all carry risk. Riding a bike or pedalec for me fits into the 'acceptable risk' level. Remember that pedalec bikes are not to be ridden by under 14's unless on private land, but learning to walk and ride on a human powered bike is a great way of getting independence in your own neighbourhood.
I will sat it again - I am comfortable with the pedalec laws and Highwway Code approach on this matter.
I am not comfortable with you wanting more speed 'because honest I am trustworthy and so will everyone else be'. Because people are numpties on our roads.
ingenieur said:
hidetheelephants said:
They can travel at the same speed as a decent cyclist, just not with electric assistance. Want to go faster? Get a licence and an e-moped or e-motorbike.
They can't. 15.5mph with 250w is not enough power or speed to stay amongst a pack of MAMIL. Mine does not a smidge over 30mph (I wondered if that was a software limit) and I found most high intensity cyclists would cruise around the 22mph mark but could get up to 28mph in a sprint.
The problem with peddling above 15.5mph is both the weight of the bike and dimensions of it. Most hybrid conversions are on mountain bikes with smaller wheels and shorter cranks (I've not seen any racing bike conversions) and with the best will in the world you ain't sustaining a speed of more than 15.5mph after the bike has become so compromised. Without the battery and motor working it is almost impossible to ride.
Dingu said:
Talk about wanting to have your cake and eat it. If you want to go 30mph buy an electric motorcycle/moped and do it properly. If you want a bicycle have a bicycle. It’s not like they are much cheaper than a bloody moped.
I know you have to have a licence etc, but good. People buzzing around at 30+mph on an e-bike should be.
+1I know you have to have a licence etc, but good. People buzzing around at 30+mph on an e-bike should be.
I'm not sure how to word this, but the difference for me is, to pull 30mph consistently on a normal bike, you have to earn it. You need to actually have some fitness and have spent time in the saddle - with which (hopefully) comes an enthusiasm for cycling, an interest in it, and a bit of learning related skills and competence. In theory you should be at least somewhat safe, having learnt a few lessons (possibly the hard way) in getting to the point of being able to do a sustained fast run.
Whereas an e-bike, any idiot can just get on one and immediately have similar or better performance than a 50cc scooter.
I also think a lot of people who are shielded by being in cars lose sight of quite how fast 30mph is if you hit something immovable, particularly with zero or minimal protective gear.
Whereas an e-bike, any idiot can just get on one and immediately have similar or better performance than a 50cc scooter.
I also think a lot of people who are shielded by being in cars lose sight of quite how fast 30mph is if you hit something immovable, particularly with zero or minimal protective gear.
ingenieur said:
They can't. 15.5mph with 250w is not enough power or speed to stay amongst a pack of MAMIL.
Mine does not a smidge over 30mph (I wondered if that was a software limit) and I found most high intensity cyclists would cruise around the 22mph mark but could get up to 28mph in a sprint.
The problem with peddling above 15.5mph is both the weight of the bike and dimensions of it. Most hybrid conversions are on mountain bikes with smaller wheels and shorter cranks (I've not seen any racing bike conversions) and with the best will in the world you ain't sustaining a speed of more than 15.5mph after the bike has become so compromised. Without the battery and motor working it is almost impossible to ride.
Yet our household ebike - a Merida eSpeeder - has no resistance when the power is not on, and it weighs about the same as a mountain bike (15.5kg). It also has only 140w of power on a hub drive unit and yet is happy up the steepest of hills in Scotland with a rider and pannier...We hired an e bike before buying which was full 250w and found that on a road, on slick tyres, even with panniers on, and a steep climb (String Road, Arran) it was too much power in many ways.Mine does not a smidge over 30mph (I wondered if that was a software limit) and I found most high intensity cyclists would cruise around the 22mph mark but could get up to 28mph in a sprint.
The problem with peddling above 15.5mph is both the weight of the bike and dimensions of it. Most hybrid conversions are on mountain bikes with smaller wheels and shorter cranks (I've not seen any racing bike conversions) and with the best will in the world you ain't sustaining a speed of more than 15.5mph after the bike has become so compromised. Without the battery and motor working it is almost impossible to ride.
It also has 700c wheels, cranks appropriate to rider height, carbon bars and seatpost, lightweight rims and 34mm tyres etc so can whizz along for upto 100km on a charge.
I think you are taking your view and experience of one bike and applying it to all bikes and all riders.
30mph on a bicycle is pretty damn quick and I really don't think ebikes should be assisted up to those speeds. I used to commute on an electric Brompton and it'd easily buzz along at the 15.5mph limit while pedalled a little bit, it needed a bit more effort to go up hills which is where 250w can be a bit limiting.
I always wondered if there was a way that acceleration could be limited and peak power could be increased. 250w is fine for a little commuter bike in a lot of confitions, but when it gets hilly or you're on something like a cargo bike you can run out of assistance pretty quick.
Final thought is, these are the sorts of vehicles where effort should be put into getting the legislation right. There's really nothing environmentally friendly about a +2.5 tonne EV being used to cart around 70-80kg of cargo, where as there are some pretty impressive developments in the electric bike and cargo bike space coming from the continent.
I always wondered if there was a way that acceleration could be limited and peak power could be increased. 250w is fine for a little commuter bike in a lot of confitions, but when it gets hilly or you're on something like a cargo bike you can run out of assistance pretty quick.
Final thought is, these are the sorts of vehicles where effort should be put into getting the legislation right. There's really nothing environmentally friendly about a +2.5 tonne EV being used to cart around 70-80kg of cargo, where as there are some pretty impressive developments in the electric bike and cargo bike space coming from the continent.
ecs said:
30mph on a bicycle is pretty damn quick and I really don't think ebikes should be assisted up to those speeds. I used to commute on an electric Brompton and it'd easily buzz along at the 15.5mph limit while pedalled a little bit, it needed a bit more effort to go up hills which is where 250w can be a bit limiting.
I always wondered if there was a way that acceleration could be limited and peak power could be increased. 250w is fine for a little commuter bike in a lot of confitions, but when it gets hilly or you're on something like a cargo bike you can run out of assistance pretty quick.
Final thought is, these are the sorts of vehicles where effort should be put into getting the legislation right. There's really nothing environmentally friendly about a +2.5 tonne EV being used to cart around 70-80kg of cargo, where as there are some pretty impressive developments in the electric bike and cargo bike space coming from the continent.
If the government wants growth it is things like relaxing the regulations to allow someone to start producing cargo bikes with a decent payload using the cheap far east components. That wouldn't do it in itself but many things like that would get the wheels turning again. I always wondered if there was a way that acceleration could be limited and peak power could be increased. 250w is fine for a little commuter bike in a lot of confitions, but when it gets hilly or you're on something like a cargo bike you can run out of assistance pretty quick.
Final thought is, these are the sorts of vehicles where effort should be put into getting the legislation right. There's really nothing environmentally friendly about a +2.5 tonne EV being used to cart around 70-80kg of cargo, where as there are some pretty impressive developments in the electric bike and cargo bike space coming from the continent.
The Netherlands has basically the same e-bike rules, it's not diminishing the market growth of e-bikes over there, probably because they have proper bicycle infrastructure over there compared to the half-arsed rubbish we get fobbed off with in the UK. Write to your MP, complain to your councillor about the ste infrastructure, that's how you get more use of e-bikes and bicycles generally.
te infrastructure, that's how you get more use of e-bikes and bicycles generally.Gassing Station | Pedal Powered | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff