Another Giles wins Super pro.

Another Giles wins Super pro.

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Rat_Fink_67

2,309 posts

205 months

Wednesday 26th October 2016
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So in a nutshell then, you're only a "real" drag racing fan or "hardcore" if you like watching Super Pro/bracket racing, like it's the connoisseur's choice? Interesting.

I've been away from the sport as a whole for over two years now and it's stuff like this that really doesn't make me miss it at all. I appreciate that it will always be a case of "each to their own" where topics like this are concerned, but bracket mania drains the colour from my cheeks quicker an elephant sized bout of turbo-AIDS.

Bracket racing serves a purpose and is absolutely a more budget friendly option when it comes to participation than heads-up, no breakout offerings, but to me it will always be racing the clock rather than the car next to you. Drag racing by definition is an acceleration contest between two points; losing to a car running two seconds slower because their weather station was more accurate will always sit as an alien concept to me. Kind of akin to giving the fat kid at sports day a medal for coming last because he tried hard or something.

Great as an entry level in to the sport and a way of cutting your teeth and gaining experience etc, but as a spectacle? It's not my bag I'm afraid. I know there's lots of "it's so tough and competitive" that gets banded around, but try telling the pro stock team who towed their stuff to a different country and then missed the show because they dropped the ball with the clutch tune up by a gram how tough brackets are. Or take a look around the pro mod or fuel pits at the conclusion of a weekend, if anyone is left vertical without being propped up against something I'd be amazed. Like I said, each to their own, but portraying Super Pro as some hardcore challenge for die hards is overstretching it a bit.

If that doesn't make me a "real" fan then I guess I wasted 30 years of my life.


Total loss

2,138 posts

226 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
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Flying Phil said:
Tet said:
What's this progression you think is missing? What's the problem you're trying to solve? As I've said repeatedly, there seems to be little evidence that people are avoiding the heads up pro classes because of the type of racing they did at lower levels. In pretty much every case that I've encountered, the reason they don't step up is money. Let's look at the UK drivers that have stepped up to Pro Mod in the years that I've been involved with the sport, and what they were doing before that:

Bobby Wallace - Pro ET
Chris Isaacs - Super Comp
Kev Slyfield - Sportsman ET
Paula Atkin - Comp Eliminator / Super Pro ET
Rick Garrett - Super Pro ET
Roger Moore - Super Pro ET
Wayne Nicholson - Super Pro ET

Now it doesn't look to me like we need to worry about a lack of progression. Drivers are clearly already stepping up from the bracket/index classes to the heads up classes.
I have been reading this thread with great interest having been spectating from 1967, and racing from 1973 -93 These Bracket Vs Heads up Vs Class, vs Rules arguments have always been part of the racing scene.
But what struck me from Tet's post re Pro Mod, is that at least two of those moving up (Paula and Wayne) were part of the Rover V8 championship - Heads up and fairly tight rules..... So they have certainly stayed with it and just keep going faster!
Just to add to where Pro Mod drivers have come from , I know Andy Robinson (2016 Champion) started in the Street Bracket class & I think Burt Englefield (2016 runner-up) did as well, he started racing his street '32 coupe.

TheMighty

584 posts

210 months

Thursday 27th October 2016
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Rat_Fink_67 said:
So in a nutshell then, you're only a "real" drag racing fan or "hardcore" if you like watching Super Pro/bracket racing, like it's the connoisseur's choice? Interesting...
Great strawman argument Lee. I didn't mention anywhere that you're only a "real" fan or "hardcore" if you like watching bracket racing, but if you want to make it up as you go along and put arguments in my mouth I will continue to make sure this is noted. In fact I was quite content to explain that I have no expectation at all that anyone would watch what I do. I find it exciting but I'm not up myself enough to suggest that anyone else should. Thankfully though some people do and I am glad to say that some of them are real drag racing fans, rather than day trippers as I previously explained. I'm sure some of these people actually enjoyed SuMo too. It wasn't my idea of fun to watch, but I can happily understand that some enjoyed it.

I'm glad to know you think I'm the fat kid who got a medal for coming last. It suits me don't you think? You should try your hand at PR with a turn of phrase like that. You'll go a long way. You dislike bracket racing as much as you want, but your colourful descriptions of how bracket racing works only show how limited your knowledge of it actually is. If anyone thinks that you win a bracket race by having an accurate weather station they're kidding themselves into a losing position.

I never portrayed SuperPro as anything. I presented the fact that I happen to like bracket racing as a spectator and have for years, and at SuperPro level I really enjoy the tactics and how quickly they happen. I actually prefer it as a box class in the US, but the lack of electronics has never turned me off it in the UK. That's why when I had an option that is where I chose to race. Only place I'd rather be is NHRA Top Dragster and I'd happily sit and watch TD at any divisional instead of big show heads-up racing.

If SuperPro isn't a challenge maybe you'd like to come and win it to show us all how easy it is.


Edited by TheMighty on Friday 28th October 00:31

Chewbacca North

48 posts

104 months

Friday 28th October 2016
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I'm an occasional spectator and get to Santa Pod maybe twice a year and York once or twice. I enjoy most classes and don't restrict myself to the Fuel events at the Pod. I've done the Nationals, Dragstalgia and Mopars as I enjoy the variety of cars in drag racing as a whole.

I have to say though, I hate cars that bimble along for 1/3 of the track then take off like a scalded cat. Is this the throttle stop business you are on about? I know it's not turbo cars with lag as I've seen plenty of those.

Heads up or not, I don't think cars should be strangulated. Should be foot down and go. Back off if you need to in brackets or if you know the other racer has broken/red light etc but don't go slow at the interesting end of the track (for spectators).

Tet

1,196 posts

203 months

Friday 28th October 2016
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RB446 said:
I'd like to see fairer heads up racing for the average guy in the Uk, whats wrong with that?
Nothing wrong with that, but I've yet to see a proposal from you about how to achieve that. Indeed, you can argue that "fair" and "heads up" can't mix in the same sentence.

Tet

1,196 posts

203 months

Friday 28th October 2016
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Chewbacca North said:
Heads up or not, I don't think cars should be strangulated. Should be foot down and go. Back off if you need to in brackets or if you know the other racer has broken/red light etc but don't go slow at the interesting end of the track (for spectators).
The problem there is that the racers are trying to win, not to put on a show for the spectators. If going slowly at the start due to a throttle stop increases their chances of winning (and it does) then how are you going to prevent people from doing it? I haven't seen it over here yet, but some cars in the US have two throttle stops, one at each end of the track. Why? Because it helps them win. There will always be conflicting opinions between the racers, the promoters and the spectators about what the racers should be doing on track. But ultimately, if I'm racing my car, I'm going to race it the way I want. If you want to change that, you need to specify your desired behaviour in the rules, and trying to mandate, say, no throttle stop usage before half track is impossible to police and will never happen.

NitroWars

661 posts

210 months

Friday 28th October 2016
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Chewbacca North said:
I have to say though, I hate cars that bimble along for 1/3 of the track then take off like a scalded cat. Is this the throttle stop business you are on about?
The classes using throttle stops are Super Comp, Super Gas and Super Street which have fixed indexes of 8.90, 9.90 & 10.90 respectively.

Tet

1,196 posts

203 months

Friday 28th October 2016
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NitroWars said:
The classes using throttle stops are Super Comp, Super Gas and Super Street which have fixed indexes of 8.90, 9.90 & 10.90 respectively.
Throttle stops are now allowed in the dial-your-own ET classes as well, although I haven't noticed anyone using them there.

RB446

31 posts

150 months

Friday 28th October 2016
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Tet said:
Nothing wrong with that, but I've yet to see a proposal from you about how to achieve that. Indeed, you can argue that "fair" and "heads up" can't mix in the same sentence.
Well did you miss my post then re Pinks all out with changes for UK HU running? I've tried discussing stock block formats for HU with others, tried a weight break system similar to Sumo but watered down for slower cars etc., all you get is negativity, oh but this and that, you could have a "crate motor" type class/weight mixed in with a 1 tyre size, but you would all find something wrong with it, I've tried.

"Fair" and "Heads up" CAN exist in the same sentence, it did with SuMo didn't it?.....thats what I've been harping on about previously a year ago in this thread, but you guys just don't wanna see it, but you still harp on about how you would love to run HU but the PRO classes are the only place to do it (its NOT) but that is too expensive, you are all so entrenched/blinkered in B/Index racing that your not even willing to listen and try to work at it with an open mind but keep trying to bring bracket syndrome in to HU racing, I'm sure most of you all have the same or probably more knowledge than me so it kind of amazes me that you don't understand me..... So I finally come up with what I think is a reasonable format which WILL need modifying from how it is run in the US so you can run a car built in any way, run it NA or with PA without any form of restrictive rules which we ALL hate over here, apart from safety of course, it then immediately gets knocked down straight away as just a TV show and its load of rubbish, and I'm an idiot for even suggesting it, now its not because I suggested it, that it could work, its because it actually could, here is an idea that can actually be worked on for once, but no-one can see it???

"Fair" HU racing will not work for all time brackets currently because we don't have enough cars from the little I know of current vehicles racing, I'm on about the slower 9>10sec brackets where there are a lot of cars that fit currently. If it became popular it could develop into other brackets?.

Anyhow, thats about it, if your all happy to go and race against the clock and slow your 8sec cars to run S/G cos its fun to twiddle with electronics and and thats enjoyable to you, fine, if you run your car flat out and back off cos your in front and you don't wanna break out, thats also fine, whatever, but your all forgetting how D/Racing started and what it was and still is and it should still be and could be a part of racing today for the average racer and not just be a money bags sport for PRo classes, there are just no alternatives, thats why I kept (past tense) boring you all to death with this stuff. We all want to win our class, but its how you do it that matters as well, because you were better at backing off or what sort of defeats what its all about and why your out there in my view.



Edited by RB446 on Friday 28th October 18:35


Edited by RB446 on Friday 28th October 18:40


Edited by RB446 on Friday 28th October 18:53

37chevy

3,280 posts

155 months

Friday 28th October 2016
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Just my 2 pence worth

I love pinks all out, but it's no coincidence that the classes they usually pick are around 9.90-10.1.....it's supergas territory and most of those guys will be racing in that class outside the pinks arena. Put 400-500 cars into the mix for the day and they manage to pick 16 really close heads up cars based on their time. I'm sure if we had that many cars racing in the uk we could do the same too...bit unfair on those who don't get chosen though!

In terms of affordability....I doubt it...18k a time for promotors, OK even if they don't offer prize money, how many racers would turn up month in month out knowing only 16 would be picked.

Pinks works great as a one off in 10 states each year but as a championship it just wouldn't work.....oh wait, I suppose it would....we have it already, it's called super gas.....only difference is some run throttle stops :-)...those evil little people...

I do hoewever agree with the sentiment of what you are getting at....I agree that races are better when you run all out. But that's why we have different classes....everyone likes something different. Bracket racing is great for those 'on a budget' who want an equal chance of winning. Index racing, similar but go about it in a different way, and heads up for those who like that sort of racing.....outlaw anglia and street eliminator are great examples of that.

Oh and by the way...huge thanks for the link...been trying to find season 2-4 for ages!!!! :-)

Edited by 37chevy on Saturday 29th October 00:00

RB446

31 posts

150 months

Saturday 29th October 2016
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No outlaw anglia and SE are not great examples of HU racing, its better to watch than the rest...just, but its no rules racing again apart from how the chassis and street legal stuff have to built, there's nothing there in the rules that equals the cars performances in any way shape or form, just like HU TS and the old Gary's picnic era, its as close as we are ever going to get here though isn't it.....you've all had a glimpse with SuMo on how its done but you still do NOT seem to get it do you.

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37chevy

3,280 posts

155 months

Saturday 29th October 2016
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RB446 said:
No outlaw anglia and SE are not great examples of HU racing, its better to watch than the rest...just, but its no rules racing again apart from how the chassis and street legal stuff have to built, there's nothing there in the rules that equals the cars performances in any way shape or form, just like HU TS and the old Gary's picnic era, its as close as we are ever going to get here though isn't it.....you've all had a glimpse with SuMo on how its done but you still do NOT seem to get it do you.

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I don't get it....if you want heads up racing then surely you want people to develop cars....that's kinda the point of heads up...to be quicker than the other guy! If you want heads up but REALLY close then you have index racing like super gas.

What you are proposing is basically a REALLY close heads up class with no sandbagging or throttle stops....which is basically super gas without the gismos....essentially if you want that then you either need 500 cars in a class so you can whittle it down to 16 (ala pinks.....) which NOONE will race in as a championship...because there is a tiny chance of qualifying for the 16, or a spec class where everyone has the same cars like in formula ford.....what's the point? Heads up classes are meant to be about development and innovation

Agreed this SUMO was a great class although I'm not up to speed on what the class rules which made the class so equal and suited what you want?

Edited by 37chevy on Saturday 29th October 08:27

Tet

1,196 posts

203 months

Saturday 29th October 2016
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RB446 said:
Nyou've all had a glimpse with SuMo on how its done but you still do NOT seem to get it do you.
Let me ask you this: why do you think SuMo failed as a class?

rob l

9 posts

150 months

Sunday 30th October 2016
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It ran it's course.

In the late nineties Nick and I were aware of several people that were looking for a heads up door class in which they could compete while still maintaining a life outside the sport. We thought they deserved a shot. For the most part, they had a great deal of fun for eight or ten years and I doubt any would consider their class as a failure. A couple of the key players moved on to Pro Mod and one built a Funny Car. More moved on than came in and what was left became part of Comp. I'm sure Comp will be an uphill slog but as long as a few people want it we'll do what we can to help.

I understand your frustration Les but our domestic sport is what it is. If you want to do something different it'll take some shoe leather and a fair chunk of energy.