Honda

[BrettMRC]

Do we think Honda will come good at all?

A change of team and a reduction of pressure might work wonders - but I have a feeling the lack of test miles is the route of all the reliability issues - without more teams using they will never make the strides that Ferrari or Renault have.

I think they will duck out of F1 within 18months unless they can attract an additional team to use the PU.

Thoughts?

I think Toro Rosso are in for a terrible year. Hope there was a lot of money involved!

[thegreenhell]

They're already getting their excuses in ahead of the season.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda-three-eng...

[HustleRussell]

Honda are going to improve in every way for 2018, they are going to have continuity from their 2017 PU unlike winter '16/17 where they basically had a clean sheet redesign.
Toro Rosso had shocking reliability from their 2017 Renault PU so while the 2018 Honda will probably be worse overall than the 2018 Renault it will still be an improvement on what they had last year.
The role of Toro Rosso this season is surely the test bed of the Honda PU for Red Bull's consideration for 2019- they simply have to hope that their power unit and their inexperienced driver line-up doesn't hinder them too badly. Being the Honda 'works' team is a pretty major coup for a team like Toro Rosso and I wonder if it will turn out to be the first step in the sale of the team.
Whether Honda ever actually gets there remains to be seen, Remember that the engine regs are going to change in a pretty big way over the coming years and that may remove some of the technical advantage from the other engine manufacturers.

[anonymous-user]

I just do not get this three engine rule. Why ruin F1 even further?

[BrettMRC]

I'm assuming the restriction on engines is a contributor to how much work it takes to change an engine/component these days?

If you were using 2 engines a weekend it wouldn't take hours to strip it out....

[ghost83]

Honda might as well introduce a new engine at every race if it gives improvements to then go into 2019 ready and to impress red bull

[sgtBerbatov]

I did find it funny that they said if they have any problems with the 2018 engine they can always revert back to the 2017 engine.

Because, as we all know, it was a mighty fine robust unit that never let McLaren down. Ever.

Poor Minardi Toro Rosso.

[mko9]

To be fair, in the last 6 races of the season there were only 2 DNFs and several points finishes.

[thegreenhell]

mko9 said:

To be fair, in the last 6 races of the season there were only 2 DNFs and several points finishes.

And only 120 grid place penalties for using too many PU components in those same races!

[thegreenhell]

Just for fun, here's some stats for how things stood at the end of the 2017 season.

Estimated power outputs are from this source - http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns37989.html
Grid penalties from this source - https://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017-f1-season/statist...

Manufacturer	Power (bhp)	Grid Penalties Total	Grid Penalties per Car
Mercedes	949	20	3.33 (6 cars)
Ferrari	934	20	5 (4 cars*)
Renault	907	320	53.33 (6 cars)
Honda	860	380	190 (2 cars)

• excluding Sauber, who used a 2016-spec Ferrari engine, albeit with no grid penalties

So, compared to Mercedes, Honda are about 10% down on power with more than 50x more grid place penalties per car.

If 2018 follows a similar pattern then just by switching to Renault, McLaren should gain almost 50 bhp (more than half of the deficit to Mercedes) and be almost 4x more reliable (using grid penalties as the measure).

[BrettMRC]

Based on those stats it really is a no brainer....all McLaren have to do is hold it together and they could be picking up podiums, maybe a win if the top 3 have a rough afternoon.

[anonymous-user]

As Alonso has Renault engines now then anything is possible.

Honda will be the engine to have in 2018

[cylinderfin]

Honda, my god they make some hidious road cars (new Civic, new Jazz etc...)
Anyway we should remember that back in the day when they built 1.5 litre turbo engines for the Williams FW10's and 11's in the mid eighties (easily the most exciting time in F1) they were pretty much the best for power and reliability.

[anonymous-user]

cylinderfin said:

Honda, my god they make some hidious road cars (new Civic, new Jazz etc...)
Anyway we should remember that back in the day when they built 1.5 litre turbo engines for the Williams FW10's and 11's in the mid eighties (easily the most exciting time in F1) they were pretty much the best for power and reliability.

The new Civic Type R seems to get lots of praise. Just not in the looks department.

Yes in the past Honda knew how to make a bloo** good engine.

[Andy S15]

The thing that worries me here is still compared to the other manufacturers. Toto has recently said the 2 engine per year rule is ridiculous, as they just now plan to bench dyno 80 odd engines then pick the 2 which show the best stats. Are honda going to be in a position to have 80 reliable-ish engines and pick the best ones? It'll most likely be a scramble to get 2 half decent working ones together in time anyway.

I want to see them come good, badly, but compared to the front of the pack they are just too late to the game. Hopefully they stick around long enough to go through the rule change.

[rdjohn]

As Red Bull are without an engine supply for 2019, they desperately need them to come good.

It would be nice to think that they could get through 6-days of testing with just one PU, but we are all certain that they won’t, 4 would be about pat for their course.

[Krikkit]

cylinderfin said:

Honda, my god they make some hidious road cars (new Civic, new Jazz etc...)
Anyway we should remember that back in the day when they built 1.5 litre turbo engines for the Williams FW10's and 11's in the mid eighties (easily the most exciting time in F1) they were pretty much the best for power and reliability.

Thing is if you look at Honda's overall F1 record (not just cherrypicking the years when they were the dog's danglies) they really aren't that good.

64-68 and 06-08 as a constructor they never came better than 4th in the championship, with two wins, and that's after cooking one of their drivers alive in 68.

As an engine supplier they did well between 84 and 92, but again some dodgy years. Since then they've won nothing.

Don't get me wrong, Honda is my favourite Japanese manufacturer, but they're not a great F1 powerhouse despite the rep built with Williams/McLaren in the 80s.

[StevieBee]

From everything I've read and heard from those who know more than any of us could, until Honda change their policy of only working from within, they will never succeed.

Their approach to this shifted when a new CEO took over and moved the Honda engines away from Jordan to BAR and they seem reluctant to change despite everything.

[thegreenhell]

Krikkit said:

As an engine supplier they did well between 84 and 92, but again some dodgy years. Since then they've won nothing.

Mugen-Honda engines won three races in 98-99 in the back of a Jordan. Frentzen was a genuine title contender in 99 until the final three races of the season when he retired from the lead of the European GP with an electrical issue.

[Krikkit]

thegreenhell said:

Krikkit said:

As an engine supplier they did well between 84 and 92, but again some dodgy years. Since then they've won nothing.

Mugen-Honda engines won three races in 98-99 in the back of a Jordan. Frentzen was a genuine title contender in 99 until the final three races of the season when he retired from the lead of the European GP with an electrical issue.

Mugen weren't a Honda factory effort though? Despite the origins of the hardware they went their own ways.