Bracket Racing - with Heads-Up start ???

[Benni]

Hello DragHeads,

As we know, P/ET and SP/ET are enjoying a steady grow with drivers joining in from other classes,
or stepping up from "Sportsman ET".

This is the case in UK, in Germany this stepping-up does not happen because there are no "Sportsman ET" races.

"Sportsman ET 12:00 - 13:99" and "Street ET 14:00 and slower" are in the german rulebook, but no organizer offers them.

I think these classes could just be right for "real, untuned daily drivers" that have no chance in other classes.

These racers often know from experience what their car can do on the quartermile,
or they find it out quickly after a few quali runs.

However, one of the reasons the "street racers" do not want to join Bracket Racing is the staggered start.

Hast there ever been a class, in UK or elsewhere, where Bracket racing is started Heads-Up ?

Two racers on the line, computer knows the individual indexes, they take off at the same time, zoom through the traps,
and the computer instantly knows who truly won by being first without breakout.

It´s all down to having a top reaction time, and this can be witnessed by the audience around the startline,
in Germany there is no track that allows seating close to the top end.

The red light advantage of the faster racer in "traditional" bracket racing would also be eliminated,
as both racers have the same pressure at the same time, and worst redlight loses.
The racer with the slower RT would have to catch up and risk breaking out, just like today.

The "chess & poker" game of both racers approaching the top end would be eliminated, maybe sandbagging reduced,
because each racer has to give it all and rely on seat-of-the pants-feeling for being "right on index".

Of course, times and win light on scoreboards could only be shown after the second racer arrives in the finish.

Am I missing out an important detail, has this ever been tried, what do you think ?

[37chevy]

Well technically it happens during qualifying...and it’s boring as hell. Part of bracket racing I enjoy (as a racer) is the cat and mouse at the top end, I’ve won and lost races by inches. The only other way I can see something like you are suggesting working is running it as a sort of comp eliminator style class where your index is worked out on power to weight ratio, but that’s not easy.

I see where you’re coming from but with a large difference in times between cars in classes like Sportsman et you could be waiting several seconds to see who the winner is and both cars would only be racing the clock where as it is now they are racing each other at the top end

[crikey]

It would give an advantage to the slower car. As far as I'm aware the "first or worst" rule applies across the board so the quicker car is always going to to first to breakout. Or you'd have to make changes to the timing system to disable the win lights and scoreboards, or at least delay the scoreboards until both cars had crossed the line.

[Jon C]

They used to put the difference in dial ins into the tree during qualifying at Shakey.

I quite liked it.

[37chevy]

Jon C said:

They used to put the difference in dial ins into the tree during qualifying at Shakey.

I quite liked it.

Completely agree

[Benni]

So that was doing quite the opposite if what I was asking,

having staggered start already in qualifying ?

Also an interesting concept, did this "racing" in quali rounds affect RTs or ETs, or cause more red lights ?

[Tet]

I'm not aware of anyone running heads-up starts in bracket races. And like Adam says, it would take away most of the beauty of bracket racing. Driving the top end well is a skill that wins or loses races, and that would be removed.

Do you have any evidence that staggered starts are deterring potential racers from entering? That's not something I've encountered in the UK. Maybe Germany will be different, but I'd be surprised.

Incidentally, in the UK at least, SP/ET generally refers to Sportsman ET. To refer to Super Pro ET by something shorter than the full name, we typically use SuPro.

[Jon C]

I heard that they used the system described by Benni (simultaneous start, staggered finish, computer works it out) in Malta the other weekend. Some chums who were there (and who bracket race) said they struggled to make sense of it

[Benni]

Thanks for the answers soi far, maybe "never change a running system" is the right approach.

In Germany, there are only 5 offcial races on 5 different tracks, where Pro ET is on offer,
Sportsman ET or Street ET is not happening.

What IS happening on lots of "airfield races" is fixed "second" classes, from 8 to 18 secs.

Run in the 13 sec class and you have to run a 13,0 or 13,1 to be competitive,
run a 12,99 and you are out, run a 13,7 or 13,9 as PB and you stand no chance.
These classes are run heads-up.

So the guys with a 13,7 PB tend to sandbag it into the 14,0 or 14,1 and have to be afraid of breaking out,
in fact they ARE running index and heads-up, but they are not running their own individual index.

I was just thinking of a way to get them into real Bracket Racing with personal Index,
while keeping the Heads-Up they are used to ( like in the industrial estates late night where they started).

[Jon C]

Benni said:

Run in the 13 sec class and you have to run a 13,0 or 13,1 to be competitive,
run a 12,99 and you are out, run a 13,7 or 13,9 as PB and you stand no chance.
These classes are run heads-up.

So the guys with a 13,7 PB tend to sandbag it into the 14,0 or 14,1 and have to be afraid of breaking out,
in fact they ARE running index and heads-up, but they are not running their own individual index.

That's what they do at the 'straight-liners' drag events for bikes over here. I never quite got my head around why it was a good thing.

[crikey]

Benni said:

Thanks for the answers soi far, maybe "never change a running system" is the right approach.

In Germany, there are only 5 offcial races on 5 different tracks, where Pro ET is on offer,
Sportsman ET or Street ET is not happening.

What IS happening on lots of "airfield races" is fixed "second" classes, from 8 to 18 secs.

Run in the 13 sec class and you have to run a 13,0 or 13,1 to be competitive,
run a 12,99 and you are out, run a 13,7 or 13,9 as PB and you stand no chance.
These classes are run heads-up.

So the guys with a 13,7 PB tend to sandbag it into the 14,0 or 14,1 and have to be afraid of breaking out,
in fact they ARE running index and heads-up, but they are not running their own individual index.

I was just thinking of a way to get them into real Bracket Racing with personal Index,
while keeping the Heads-Up they are used to ( like in the industrial estates late night where they started).

So basically the Pro Street class they run in EDRS, but slower.

[Benni]

Jon : it is a good IDEA but after one or two events, drivers tend to know their cars/bikes and their limit.

We had that with Jerry in the 90s and 00s on MZA Luckau at some big Opel and VW events,

because a displacement-based system was not fair and with no real tech / scutineering open for cheaters.

So we thought : regardless of what has been put into the car, it´s the ET that counts,

and established second-based classes.

In free practice on Friday, everyone gave it the beans, and slowed down on quali Saturday for hitting "their" class,

took us some time to realize this, they were doing Bracket and some were quite good at it.

We went with this, but added some flavor in giving them an allowed breakout between o,o and o,3 secs,

which was cheekily announced on race day driver´s meet, if they wanted to play games we played, too.

Crikey : Will have to take a look at EDRS rules and classes, thanks for the tip.

( I know that this is a very small section of PH, but as I use no social media I hope that it has future,
regarding the BIG news of new PH ownership, see General Gassing.)

[Camaro]

Benni said:

We went with this, but added some flavor in giving them an allowed breakout between o,o and o,3 secs,

which was cheekily announced on race day driver´s meet, if they wanted to play games we played, too.

Boy am I glad I don't race in that series. Changing the goals posts at the last minute is not playing games.

[Tet]

Camaro said:

Boy am I glad I don't race in that series. Changing the goals posts at the last minute is not playing games.

Actually, I quite like the idea, but it would need to be made clear beforehand that it would happen. I wouldn't want to turn up to a race and find out that I was racing under different conditions than expected. But if you say something like "We'll be having a bracket race. Breakouts are permitted up to a certain threshold. The threshold will be decided on the day", that will mix things up a bit. For dial-your-own classes, if you can hit a time, you're sorted and just need to add the threshold to your chosen ET. If you're in a fixed index class, then it separates out those that can tune the car to hit a time from those that can't.

[Benni]

Tet : That was happening, the drivers knew there was a twist,
but otherwise they would have been doing 12,8s in a 13sec class all day long.

For the 2019 season, I will try to convince organizers of small-scale sportsman events to go for Bracket Racing beyond P/ET,
Sportsman ET and Street ET exist in the rulebook but has not been done for years (decades).

Racers should be glad that with a personal Index every one has the same chance to win,
cut good lights and concentrate on their lane green, not the opponent´s tree.
Will they "get" Bracket ? I don´t know and have to see.