S2000 or CTR turbo?
Discussion
Good morning Honda fans
I'm about to leave my 20 year history of Volkswagens and step into the world of Hondaness. Well, I already have a Honda lawnmower, so I feel some kind loyalty to the brand already
The reason being I have always loved the S2000 and I'd like to buy one, but I also want to fatten up it's midrange torque with a turbo. I've been there already with centrifugal superchargers and I hate them.
I have quite a lot of experience in turboing VWs that weren't forced fed to begin with and I'm hoping I can translate this experience into Honda land.
That VTEC motor flows shed loads of air, so is the perfect base for a turbo engine and it won't need stupid boost pressures to make good power.
My main questions are:-
1) Are there any bolt-on turbo kits for the S2000, or any VTEC engine for that matter? Initially I am thinking a Garret GT3071R with a 1.06AR back housing. I think a GT35R will be too laggy, but I've used one before and it's a great turbo. What do you think?
2) Is the S2000 the right chassis for it? Or should I do it to the more predictable Civic instead?
3) Are the gearboxes up to handling the torque? I would want no more than 400hp with ~350lbft torque.
4) Do either the S2000 or CTR have an LSD?
Thanks
I'm about to leave my 20 year history of Volkswagens and step into the world of Hondaness. Well, I already have a Honda lawnmower, so I feel some kind loyalty to the brand already
The reason being I have always loved the S2000 and I'd like to buy one, but I also want to fatten up it's midrange torque with a turbo. I've been there already with centrifugal superchargers and I hate them.
I have quite a lot of experience in turboing VWs that weren't forced fed to begin with and I'm hoping I can translate this experience into Honda land.
That VTEC motor flows shed loads of air, so is the perfect base for a turbo engine and it won't need stupid boost pressures to make good power.
My main questions are:-
1) Are there any bolt-on turbo kits for the S2000, or any VTEC engine for that matter? Initially I am thinking a Garret GT3071R with a 1.06AR back housing. I think a GT35R will be too laggy, but I've used one before and it's a great turbo. What do you think?
2) Is the S2000 the right chassis for it? Or should I do it to the more predictable Civic instead?
3) Are the gearboxes up to handling the torque? I would want no more than 400hp with ~350lbft torque.
4) Do either the S2000 or CTR have an LSD?
Thanks
Edited by SuperchargedVR6 on Wednesday 10th October 11:52
both ep3 and fn2 type r's are well known for working brilliantly with superchargers. Simple bolt on kits, remap, bit of pipework and away you go. Various fn2's on civinfo.com have superchargers and they kick out well over 300bhp and keep the big power band and vtec. The rest of the car copes fine. Updating the brakes is probably a good idea.....not sure about s2000's. Later fn2 type r's have LSD's (April 2010 on) and all Champ whites do. Turboing is fine as well but supercharging seems to be favourite. ABP motorsport and TDi are the guys to talk to.
Edited by davidcharles on Wednesday 10th October 13:05
S2000 would be my choice (although I'm biased) as I'd prefer the power through the rear wheels.
I'm not clued up on the force fed route, but S2Ki.com would be the perfect place if you're after more info on the s2000 - every question you can think of has been asked and answered there.
And yes, the S2000 has an LSD.
I'm not clued up on the force fed route, but S2Ki.com would be the perfect place if you're after more info on the s2000 - every question you can think of has been asked and answered there.
And yes, the S2000 has an LSD.
SuperchargedVR6 said:
1) Is the S2000 the right chassis for it? Or should I do it to the more predictable Civic instead?
2) Are the gearboxes up to handling the torque? I would want no more than 400hp with ~350lbft torque.
3) Do either the S2000 or CTR have an LSD?
1)_Depends what you want. The S2OOO chassis is OK but can be improved. Coilovers, etc. Do you want RWD or FWD ?2) Are the gearboxes up to handling the torque? I would want no more than 400hp with ~350lbft torque.
3) Do either the S2000 or CTR have an LSD?
Edited by SuperchargedVR6 on Wednesday 10th October 11:52
2) S2000 gearboxes have handled that much power.
3) S2000 has a torsen LSD. Later CTR's also have an LSD, as stated above. Not sure what type though.
What year cars are you looking at for S2000 and CTR ?
Thanks guys, some good pointers to get started with.
I've read most of the S2000 buying guide and it seems apart from the soft top developing holes and the suspension bush bolts seizing up, there doesn't appear to be a big list of achilles heels. That's half the reason I have chosen to go Honda, the reliability. A thirst for oil I can live with. I'm well used to that with VWs!
The reason I asked if the S2000 was the right chassis is because I've heard it can be quite wayward and too easy to get the back end out of shape? If the chassis is easy to unbalance with it's standard power, am I asking for bother sticking a turbo on it?
I've driven a few CTRs (but not an S2K yet) and they feel very benign and predictable, so could perhaps be a better platform for low boost applications? I do fancy a change to RWD though. I've owned several BMWs too and know what that propulsion method is like (and how useless it is in the winter!) but the FWC Civic feels so neutral, it's hard to tell which wheels are driven sometimes.
I'd love a DC5 Integ, but getting a good one over here is a fair of bit of hassle I don't want.
Anyway, I haven't decided on which model year S2000 / CTR to go for yet as my engine plans are kind dictating the choice at the moment. I'm warming to a late S2000 with hardtop. I hear Honda made some tweaks to the chassis on the later cars?
I've seen a few Supercharge torque curves and they don't seem to fatten up the <4000rpm area as much as I would like. Admittedly, I am being greedy here. I want the bottom end AND the top end
And yep, which ever car I get, I shall of course enjoy it in N'asp form whilst I source the parts.
Thanks for the other info about the gearboxes, LSD and links etc. I shall do some researching!
Oh, one other thing. Is the S2000's gearing as short as the CTR's? I'm kinda hoping it is!
I've read most of the S2000 buying guide and it seems apart from the soft top developing holes and the suspension bush bolts seizing up, there doesn't appear to be a big list of achilles heels. That's half the reason I have chosen to go Honda, the reliability. A thirst for oil I can live with. I'm well used to that with VWs!
The reason I asked if the S2000 was the right chassis is because I've heard it can be quite wayward and too easy to get the back end out of shape? If the chassis is easy to unbalance with it's standard power, am I asking for bother sticking a turbo on it?
I've driven a few CTRs (but not an S2K yet) and they feel very benign and predictable, so could perhaps be a better platform for low boost applications? I do fancy a change to RWD though. I've owned several BMWs too and know what that propulsion method is like (and how useless it is in the winter!) but the FWC Civic feels so neutral, it's hard to tell which wheels are driven sometimes.
I'd love a DC5 Integ, but getting a good one over here is a fair of bit of hassle I don't want.
Anyway, I haven't decided on which model year S2000 / CTR to go for yet as my engine plans are kind dictating the choice at the moment. I'm warming to a late S2000 with hardtop. I hear Honda made some tweaks to the chassis on the later cars?
I've seen a few Supercharge torque curves and they don't seem to fatten up the <4000rpm area as much as I would like. Admittedly, I am being greedy here. I want the bottom end AND the top end
And yep, which ever car I get, I shall of course enjoy it in N'asp form whilst I source the parts.
Thanks for the other info about the gearboxes, LSD and links etc. I shall do some researching!
Oh, one other thing. Is the S2000's gearing as short as the CTR's? I'm kinda hoping it is!
As others have said have a bit of a read on s2ki, in the uk community there are a few turbos and superchargers going on, there is also a Forced Induction forum on there. 'Kitesurfer' has a turbo and won't shut up about it 
.
However I have decided to go supercharged as I want to keep the linear delivery to the car. I don't really want a boat load of torque charging in causing the end to suddenly break lose, just my preference though, I want to keep the car nice and controlled. The debate on turbo vs charged never dies with the S2k, its just what you'd prefer. I've just bought my kit off of someone who is now going turbo, others hate turbo on the s2k.
try kings performance in the US for turbo kit, and inline pro. This guy is close to finishing a circ 900 bhp build using kings kit, but they do more 'sensible' kits that are well priced.
http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/899782-pussy-cat-b...
PS the kings kit may need adapting for RHD cars, but I don't know much as I never really looked into turbo, but the build above is doing it. Kings have their stage one kit at over 700 hp on race fuel their site says
.However I have decided to go supercharged as I want to keep the linear delivery to the car. I don't really want a boat load of torque charging in causing the end to suddenly break lose, just my preference though, I want to keep the car nice and controlled. The debate on turbo vs charged never dies with the S2k, its just what you'd prefer. I've just bought my kit off of someone who is now going turbo, others hate turbo on the s2k.
try kings performance in the US for turbo kit, and inline pro. This guy is close to finishing a circ 900 bhp build using kings kit, but they do more 'sensible' kits that are well priced.
http://www.s2ki.com/s2000/topic/899782-pussy-cat-b...
PS the kings kit may need adapting for RHD cars, but I don't know much as I never really looked into turbo, but the build above is doing it. Kings have their stage one kit at over 700 hp on race fuel their site says
Edited by robinandcamera on Wednesday 10th October 16:34
SuperchargedVR6 said:
There doesn't appear to be a big list of achilles heels. That's half the reason I have chosen to go Honda, the reliability.
I'm warming to a late S2000 with hardtop. I hear Honda made some tweaks to the chassis on the later cars?
Oh, one other thing. Is the S2000's gearing as short as the CTR's? I'm kinda hoping it is!
Be wary of late model S2000's. 08/09 cars (the last ones) can go pop ! More than the odd bottom end failure and some failures of replacement engines !I'm warming to a late S2000 with hardtop. I hear Honda made some tweaks to the chassis on the later cars?
Oh, one other thing. Is the S2000's gearing as short as the CTR's? I'm kinda hoping it is!
Chassis tweaks were common throughout the years of production. 04 onwards (facelift) cars are a little softer than the early cars.
Gearing is similar to a CTR but an S2000 revs to 9k RPM.
From what you want I believe a 2004-2007 car is perfect, these are softer than early cars yet are not plagued with engine issues like the 08/09's. They are also facelifted so look much fresher inside and out. Cars from 2004-06 are much cheaper to tax, £260 ish where the 06 onwards are £400+.
I am not a FI geek, but I have I have good experience with my s2000 (2005) and my best friends motor a 2005 EP3.
First off the s2000 feels more crazy, it revs higher, is louder and the roof comes off. Handling is good, but you need to know your limits, when it goes its smooth but just very fast, you have to be on the ball. However if you treat the car well and drive properly you won't go backwards into a hedge. The EP3 however is a lot different, you can throw it around and it just seems to stick and grip, ultimately it won't have the same grip as an s2000 - but put 2 standard drivers in each car and you'll get places quicker in the civic. But if you are like me this is the rewarding part, really pushing on is exciting.
Engine wise, very similar characteristics, performance between the two cars on the road is very similar. The s2000 really doesn't have much more go until you are speeding.
The k20a in the civic is limited to 8k, with a more pronounced vtec crossover, vtec comes in at just under 6k. The s2000 is limited at 9k with vtec coming in just after 6k. Both feel very similar under vtec, responsive but hardly quick.
Gearing - the ep3 is shorter. To give you an idea in 2nd gear the civic tops out at 56-58mph, where the s2000 is looking at 60-62. 3rd is about 90 in the s2000, low 80's in civic.
If anything I'd say the s2000 would benefit from the shorter gearing when NA (a lot of people install different ratios, standard being 4.1 a lot of people opting or 4.56 or 4.77 - this may be pointless with a turbo mind, the extra power would happily shove it along on the standard cogs. It also depends on what driving you do, a stock s2000 sits at 4200rpm at 80mph in 6th, so it's hardly a quiet m'way cruiser. Changing the ratios would obviously ruin this making it very uneconomical not to mention noisy on longer journeys.
Gearbox - s2000 should be fine with your figures, when you've killed the clutch it may be worth replacing it for something tougher, but it depends on how you drive it. Not sure about the box on the civic - although they are both very very good to use.
Get out and drive one, they are both fab cars that love to be driven. If you can get away with a 2 seater then it has to be the s - it would be able to transfer all that power to the road in the dry. On the other hand the civic still retains a certain level of practicality, but will be much less engaging to drive.
I am not a FI geek, but I have I have good experience with my s2000 (2005) and my best friends motor a 2005 EP3.
First off the s2000 feels more crazy, it revs higher, is louder and the roof comes off. Handling is good, but you need to know your limits, when it goes its smooth but just very fast, you have to be on the ball. However if you treat the car well and drive properly you won't go backwards into a hedge. The EP3 however is a lot different, you can throw it around and it just seems to stick and grip, ultimately it won't have the same grip as an s2000 - but put 2 standard drivers in each car and you'll get places quicker in the civic. But if you are like me this is the rewarding part, really pushing on is exciting.
Engine wise, very similar characteristics, performance between the two cars on the road is very similar. The s2000 really doesn't have much more go until you are speeding.
The k20a in the civic is limited to 8k, with a more pronounced vtec crossover, vtec comes in at just under 6k. The s2000 is limited at 9k with vtec coming in just after 6k. Both feel very similar under vtec, responsive but hardly quick.
Gearing - the ep3 is shorter. To give you an idea in 2nd gear the civic tops out at 56-58mph, where the s2000 is looking at 60-62. 3rd is about 90 in the s2000, low 80's in civic.
If anything I'd say the s2000 would benefit from the shorter gearing when NA (a lot of people install different ratios, standard being 4.1 a lot of people opting or 4.56 or 4.77 - this may be pointless with a turbo mind, the extra power would happily shove it along on the standard cogs. It also depends on what driving you do, a stock s2000 sits at 4200rpm at 80mph in 6th, so it's hardly a quiet m'way cruiser. Changing the ratios would obviously ruin this making it very uneconomical not to mention noisy on longer journeys.
Gearbox - s2000 should be fine with your figures, when you've killed the clutch it may be worth replacing it for something tougher, but it depends on how you drive it. Not sure about the box on the civic - although they are both very very good to use.
Get out and drive one, they are both fab cars that love to be driven. If you can get away with a 2 seater then it has to be the s - it would be able to transfer all that power to the road in the dry. On the other hand the civic still retains a certain level of practicality, but will be much less engaging to drive.
Many thanks Russy and to the rest of you!
I saw a yellow S2000 flying round a roundabout several cars up in the commuting traffic this morning. My mind was made up at that point. S2000 it is!
There's a Honda dealer near me, so I'll try and take one out for a test drive this weekend if they've got one in. 2005 model year I'll aim for then.
I tried to get onto s2ki this morning but it appears to be down. I also looked at this site and 400hp with 265lbft for £4000 seems very reasonable - http://www.rotrexsuperchargers.co.uk/Rotrex/pages/...
I've seen Rotrex chargers in action on other engines and I think their boost delivery (i.e late!) quite suits the VTEC's character. It's the Vortech centrifugal chargers I hate. God awful things.
I'll keep an eye on s2ki coming back online and will have a good browse!
I saw a yellow S2000 flying round a roundabout several cars up in the commuting traffic this morning. My mind was made up at that point. S2000 it is!
There's a Honda dealer near me, so I'll try and take one out for a test drive this weekend if they've got one in. 2005 model year I'll aim for then.
I tried to get onto s2ki this morning but it appears to be down. I also looked at this site and 400hp with 265lbft for £4000 seems very reasonable - http://www.rotrexsuperchargers.co.uk/Rotrex/pages/...
I've seen Rotrex chargers in action on other engines and I think their boost delivery (i.e late!) quite suits the VTEC's character. It's the Vortech centrifugal chargers I hate. God awful things.
I'll keep an eye on s2ki coming back online and will have a good browse!
Lots of good information in this post. I've had my S2000 for 5 months now and had a brilliant time in it, even though I've come from much faster cars, M3's, supercharged Z4 (380bhp).
If you're after ultimate power headlines then it has to be a turbo or supercharger. Not sure a supercharger will help much until above 4500rpm, which is where the car starts to become alive anyway.
In one of my M3's, I changed the final drive ratio and it made a positive difference to acceleration, whilst making it much more responsive low down, gets you into the power zone a lot quicker. Plus it gives 10-15% more torque at the wheels which is what counts. I think that's where I'll be going with the S2000. The enjoyable part of the car is the ability to use all of the available power on the road, it just needs a little more mid-range. I estimate it will be about £800 all in with genuine Honda parts.
If you're after ultimate power headlines then it has to be a turbo or supercharger. Not sure a supercharger will help much until above 4500rpm, which is where the car starts to become alive anyway.
In one of my M3's, I changed the final drive ratio and it made a positive difference to acceleration, whilst making it much more responsive low down, gets you into the power zone a lot quicker. Plus it gives 10-15% more torque at the wheels which is what counts. I think that's where I'll be going with the S2000. The enjoyable part of the car is the ability to use all of the available power on the road, it just needs a little more mid-range. I estimate it will be about £800 all in with genuine Honda parts.
scz4 said:
In one of my M3's, I changed the final drive ratio and it made a positive difference to acceleration, whilst making it much more responsive low down, gets you into the power zone a lot quicker. Plus it gives 10-15% more torque at the wheels which is what counts.
...at 10-15% less speed though. Don't be fooled into thinking it is the same as 10-15% from the engine, it really isn't.Kozy said:
SuperchargedVR6 said:
3) Are the gearboxes up to handling the torque? I would want no more than 400hp with ~350lbft torque.
One or the other in a Honda. Due to the revs, 400bhp will be about 280lbft, 350lbft will be about 500bhp.I suspect you want the former, which should be fine.
scz4 said:
If you're after ultimate power headlines then it has to be a turbo or supercharger. Not sure a supercharger will help much until above 4500rpm, which is where the car starts to become alive anyway.
I'm actually quite warming to the Rotrex the more I read up on it. I have experience of them on VW engines that don't flow very much and the results weren't spectacular. I think on a VTEC, there's more bang for the same psi available, so it should feel a whole lot punchier everywhere in the rev range, in theory! If the S can rev to 9000, then the party starting at 4500rpm is fine. I forget how short the gearing is, so aiming for sub 4000rpm torque may not be necessary.scz4 said:
In one of my M3's, I changed the final drive ratio and it made a positive difference to acceleration, whilst making it much more responsive low down, gets you into the power zone a lot quicker. Plus it gives 10-15% more torque at the wheels which is what counts. I think that's where I'll be going with the S2000. The enjoyable part of the car is the ability to use all of the available power on the road, it just needs a little more mid-range. I estimate it will be about £800 all in with genuine Honda parts.
Yeah I messed around with diffs on my old VWs and E30 325i BMWs. The acceleration did improve nicely but I found I kept reaching for a 6th that wasn't there and the drivetrain shunting in traffic was worse, but overall, a good mod.SuperchargedVR6 said:
I'm actually quite warming to the Rotrex the more I read up on it. I have experience of them on VW engines that don't flow very much and the results weren't spectacular. I think on a VTEC, there's more bang for the same psi available, so it should feel a whole lot punchier everywhere in the rev range, in theory! If the S can rev to 9000, then the party starting at 4500rpm is fine. I forget how short the gearing is, so aiming for sub 4000rpm torque may not be necessary
Interesting. My Z4 had a twin screw supercharger which are these most efficient in terms of loses through drive and temperature, it also generated full boost at 1950rpm, almost like a turbo, where as a centrifugal 'charger makes maximum boost at maximum revs. How does the rotrex work in comparison? I'm not familiar with those. I see TTS Performance is £3900 + VAT for the kit. I love the idea of charging my S2000, as I did with the Z4, my only complaint is it will have the performance but still not the sound of a sportscar, still just a 4 cyl
How about a LS2 or LS3 V8 conversion Best of all worlds. Any idea how much weight the Rotrex adds?
SuperchargedVR6 said:
The acceleration did improve nicely but I found I kept reaching for a 6th that wasn't there and the drivetrain shunting in traffic was worse, but overall, a good mod.
I know what you mean and this will be made at lot worse with the high rpm at motorway speeds as it is. A new Quaife gearbox with custom ratios would be ideal, but they are £8k+scz4 said:
Interesting. My Z4 had a twin screw supercharger which are these most efficient in terms of loses through drive and temperature, it also generated full boost at 1950rpm, almost like a turbo, where as a centrifugal 'charger makes maximum boost at maximum revs. How does the rotrex work in comparison? I'm not familiar with those. I see TTS Performance is £3900 + VAT for the kit.
Ah OK, so you ran a positive displacment charger Eaton? Nice one The Rotrex is a centrifugal charger like the Vortechs, but the neat thing with the Rotrex is it uses it's own autonomous oiling system, so there's no need to be tapping sumps and Teeing oil feeds off the filter housing etc. It's a true bolt on / unbolt kit, in theory.
scz4 said:
Any idea how much weight the Rotrex adds?
As a complete kit I don't know, but the charger itself is heavier than it looks! The special gearbox is most of it's bulk and weight. My friend's old C30-94 Rotrex wasn't far off the weight of my GT30 turbo.scz4 said:
Oh.. and I wonder just how expensive a supercharged S2000 would be to insure, the standard car is bad enough given the performance.
Oh really? How much roughly for a standard car? I'm 39 with full bonus if it helps. I live in a quite village too, which stupidly enough increases the bloody premium because in the insurer's eyes, there are no 'passers by' to see the car being stolen!! I hate insurance companies. Thieves, the lot of them!Insurance is known to be very expensive. My circumstances seem to add up nicely and my insurance is very reasonable compared to what other drivers are paying.
I'm 24, 3yrs ncb, parked on my drive, social only and I pay £700 via admiral. However I have seen older drivers with more NCB paying 11-1200.
In old money it's group 20, if you are modifying you will definitely want to look elsewhere than the usual crowd of big boys. I think chris knott has a deal with the forum.
Also finally another tip is to sign up to s2kuk (£12 or something), you'll get a 10% discount card which many dealers honour on parts and labour (saved £40)on my big service).
I'm 24, 3yrs ncb, parked on my drive, social only and I pay £700 via admiral. However I have seen older drivers with more NCB paying 11-1200.
In old money it's group 20, if you are modifying you will definitely want to look elsewhere than the usual crowd of big boys. I think chris knott has a deal with the forum.
Also finally another tip is to sign up to s2kuk (£12 or something), you'll get a 10% discount card which many dealers honour on parts and labour (saved £40)on my big service).
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