Will the S2000 go down as a truly great car?
Discussion
APontus said:
My recollection was that the Boxster repeatedly beat the S2000 in roadtests sure to the Honda having poor EPAS and a snappy chassis.
I'm sure they'll be the odd outlier but that appeared to be the consensus.
Fair enough. Just looking at the Autocar road tests of May 1999 and June 2002, the Boxter did come up tops but the later S2000 in 2002 was said to have a more compliant chassis than the earlier one. The later models also had driving aids and larger wheels and probably had a few more tweaks to the suspension but can't confirm that.I'm sure they'll be the odd outlier but that appeared to be the consensus.
A snap shot of the factfile from the Autocar tests from 2002 for anyone interested.
Edit....the Boxster was given 9 stars in the test.
Edited by Koolkat969 on Sunday 30th May 21:53
s2kjock said:
I drove a Boxster briefly a while before I bought my first S2000, so it was not meant to be a direct comparison - I don't recall much about the Porsche but it was better in the steering and handling areas.
Equivalent spec Boxsters were about £10k more than the Honda at the time from memory - I'm sure if Honda had invested more in the design and charged Porsche money for it it would have handled and steered just as well - but then everyone may well just have bought the "premium" German product if it cost the same.
I think the Honda was "great" for the money - handling was not as bad as made out, but perhaps the steering let it down enough not to be "truly great".
As it happens, I had a lot more fun driving the S2000 than I ever have driving my Evora, the steering and handling of which pi$$ all over the Honda as you would expect.
The Boxster cost £5,500 more according to Autocar in 2002. Equivalent spec Boxsters were about £10k more than the Honda at the time from memory - I'm sure if Honda had invested more in the design and charged Porsche money for it it would have handled and steered just as well - but then everyone may well just have bought the "premium" German product if it cost the same.
I think the Honda was "great" for the money - handling was not as bad as made out, but perhaps the steering let it down enough not to be "truly great".
As it happens, I had a lot more fun driving the S2000 than I ever have driving my Evora, the steering and handling of which pi$$ all over the Honda as you would expect.
Koolkat969 said:
The Boxster cost £5,500 more according to Autocar in 2002.
Not in the same spec though? Only real option on the Honda was the tin roof.At the time people said you needed to stretch to a Boxster S to get comparable/better performance and that was a much more expensive car.
I now have a ‘99 S2000 and previously had a ‘01 996 and a Boxster Spyder before that.
The Porsches are objectively better but I prefer the S2000. It has more character if anything and is just as much fun to drive. I even like the EPAS, but how it feels has a lot to do with wheels, tyres and geometry.
The S2000 is not about going as fast as possible and having a flexible engine. The S2000 fills a much narrower niche. It’s about using technology to gain a very high specific output without forced induction and keeping the chassis and drivetrain light, nimble and accessible. If you want the power band, use the gearbox. If not, you can cruise quite comfortably out of vtec. It really is two cars in one, not a one size fits all.
The suspension is so adjustable that you can dial out the response the early cars were criticised for, but those are the very responses the engineers designed in - they just didn’t go down well with the buying public in the real world. Porsche did a better job of building a retailable product; a mid-engined Porsche? For Mondeo (ish) money??!!
Imagine having the choice back in the day. On paper I’d probably have gone for the Boxster along with everyone else but today I’m happy I’ve ended up with the Honda.
The Porsches are objectively better but I prefer the S2000. It has more character if anything and is just as much fun to drive. I even like the EPAS, but how it feels has a lot to do with wheels, tyres and geometry.
The S2000 is not about going as fast as possible and having a flexible engine. The S2000 fills a much narrower niche. It’s about using technology to gain a very high specific output without forced induction and keeping the chassis and drivetrain light, nimble and accessible. If you want the power band, use the gearbox. If not, you can cruise quite comfortably out of vtec. It really is two cars in one, not a one size fits all.
The suspension is so adjustable that you can dial out the response the early cars were criticised for, but those are the very responses the engineers designed in - they just didn’t go down well with the buying public in the real world. Porsche did a better job of building a retailable product; a mid-engined Porsche? For Mondeo (ish) money??!!
Imagine having the choice back in the day. On paper I’d probably have gone for the Boxster along with everyone else but today I’m happy I’ve ended up with the Honda.
I brought my MY05 almost six years ago, wanted a RWD car so drove E90 M3, Z4M, 987 Boxster S and ended up with an S2000.
Honda steering is a bit of a disappointment, particularly in comparison to the 987.
The S54 in the Z4M was really something special and really highlighted the lack of torque form the F20C.
E90 was really nice but felt big and didn't really gel with it...
There was just something about the whole package that made it more of an event to drive, it's small so really easy to place on our B roads, (even with acres of bonnet!) and even with the EPS the feedback through your seat gives you all the information you need to react to whatever the car is doing. 9k red line feels pretty special too
Honda steering is a bit of a disappointment, particularly in comparison to the 987.
The S54 in the Z4M was really something special and really highlighted the lack of torque form the F20C.
E90 was really nice but felt big and didn't really gel with it...
There was just something about the whole package that made it more of an event to drive, it's small so really easy to place on our B roads, (even with acres of bonnet!) and even with the EPS the feedback through your seat gives you all the information you need to react to whatever the car is doing. 9k red line feels pretty special too
I only discovered the S2000 in the last few years. I think as the years have rolled by and everything moving to forced induction, this car really stands out for me. I have owned a Boxster of the same vintage, however for me it did not feel as special as the S2000.
I think it has aged really well and in the right colour/spec, just looks fantastic. Whenever I take it out for a hoon, I keep thinking how I will never sell it.. It's seems many have owned and regretted selling, which I think makes it a great car. Just look at the prices being attained on BaT, would suggest it has a pretty decent following.
G
I think it has aged really well and in the right colour/spec, just looks fantastic. Whenever I take it out for a hoon, I keep thinking how I will never sell it.. It's seems many have owned and regretted selling, which I think makes it a great car. Just look at the prices being attained on BaT, would suggest it has a pretty decent following.
G
I'm now over 20 years in The S2000 had 3 of my own, and repaired 3 others.
Over the years people have knocked it saying it has no torque but back in 1999 it had 238bhp the most bhp from any N/A engine the most torqe from any 2.0 na engine in the world.
The Boxster had massive engine issues later they were on average 7k more to buy plus extras, on track a S2000 woukd happily stay with a 3.2s and over take the 2.5.
Tge Z4 2.0,2.2,2.53.0 is absolutely no match in speed or power, they have started to age well the M was more powerful and quicker but an S will still corner and brake better.
I have had several sports cars and and can say now a Super car, but as and when I sell any the S2000 will never go they are just far to much fun.
People need to understand the car it will sit at 30mph in 6th gear or a 150mph in Germany.
It differently is a great sports car.
Over the years people have knocked it saying it has no torque but back in 1999 it had 238bhp the most bhp from any N/A engine the most torqe from any 2.0 na engine in the world.
The Boxster had massive engine issues later they were on average 7k more to buy plus extras, on track a S2000 woukd happily stay with a 3.2s and over take the 2.5.
Tge Z4 2.0,2.2,2.53.0 is absolutely no match in speed or power, they have started to age well the M was more powerful and quicker but an S will still corner and brake better.
I have had several sports cars and and can say now a Super car, but as and when I sell any the S2000 will never go they are just far to much fun.
People need to understand the car it will sit at 30mph in 6th gear or a 150mph in Germany.
It differently is a great sports car.
I think it will go down as a truly great car. Simply because I can't see honda ever recreating this in this day and age unless some magic happens and we can kill the emissions and still have high revving NA engines.
I've had mine since late 2018 and I've enjoyed the car, it's a 2004 so the cable throttle and no traction etc.
it's got a few mods:
big brakes
wheels
suspension(coilovers)
exhaust
interior retrim
intake etc.
I don't drive it often but when I do take it out, it's an occasion.. it feels special and fun.
there's something about it. I do want to go and supercharge it just to make it silly but it's plenty fast as is, you just need to know how to get the power out of it. It's not a lazy engine, it's one that requires revs and begs to play with the gears.
the gear box is also a dream. Easily the best manual I've driven.
few pictures for those that are interested.
I've had mine since late 2018 and I've enjoyed the car, it's a 2004 so the cable throttle and no traction etc.
it's got a few mods:
big brakes
wheels
suspension(coilovers)
exhaust
interior retrim
intake etc.
I don't drive it often but when I do take it out, it's an occasion.. it feels special and fun.
there's something about it. I do want to go and supercharge it just to make it silly but it's plenty fast as is, you just need to know how to get the power out of it. It's not a lazy engine, it's one that requires revs and begs to play with the gears.
the gear box is also a dream. Easily the best manual I've driven.
few pictures for those that are interested.
grudas said:
I think it will go down as a truly great car. Simply because I can't see honda ever recreating this in this day and age unless some magic happens and we can kill the emissions and still have high revving NA engines.
I've had mine since late 2018 and I've enjoyed the car, it's a 2004 so the cable throttle and no traction etc.
it's got a few mods:
big brakes
wheels
suspension(coilovers)
exhaust
interior retrim
intake etc.
I don't drive it often but when I do take it out, it's an occasion.. it feels special and fun.
there's something about it. I do want to go and supercharge it just to make it silly but it's plenty fast as is, you just need to know how to get the power out of it. It's not a lazy engine, it's one that requires revs and begs to play with the gears.
the gear box is also a dream. Easily the best manual I've driven.
few pictures for those that are interested.
You have a lovely example, perfect subtle mods..I've had mine since late 2018 and I've enjoyed the car, it's a 2004 so the cable throttle and no traction etc.
it's got a few mods:
big brakes
wheels
suspension(coilovers)
exhaust
interior retrim
intake etc.
I don't drive it often but when I do take it out, it's an occasion.. it feels special and fun.
there's something about it. I do want to go and supercharge it just to make it silly but it's plenty fast as is, you just need to know how to get the power out of it. It's not a lazy engine, it's one that requires revs and begs to play with the gears.
the gear box is also a dream. Easily the best manual I've driven.
few pictures for those that are interested.
G
Gio G said:
grudas said:
I think it will go down as a truly great car. Simply because I can't see honda ever recreating this in this day and age unless some magic happens and we can kill the emissions and still have high revving NA engines.
I've had mine since late 2018 and I've enjoyed the car, it's a 2004 so the cable throttle and no traction etc.
it's got a few mods:
big brakes
wheels
suspension(coilovers)
exhaust
interior retrim
intake etc.
I don't drive it often but when I do take it out, it's an occasion.. it feels special and fun.
there's something about it. I do want to go and supercharge it just to make it silly but it's plenty fast as is, you just need to know how to get the power out of it. It's not a lazy engine, it's one that requires revs and begs to play with the gears.
the gear box is also a dream. Easily the best manual I've driven.
few pictures for those that are interested.
You have a lovely example, perfect subtle mods..I've had mine since late 2018 and I've enjoyed the car, it's a 2004 so the cable throttle and no traction etc.
it's got a few mods:
big brakes
wheels
suspension(coilovers)
exhaust
interior retrim
intake etc.
I don't drive it often but when I do take it out, it's an occasion.. it feels special and fun.
there's something about it. I do want to go and supercharge it just to make it silly but it's plenty fast as is, you just need to know how to get the power out of it. It's not a lazy engine, it's one that requires revs and begs to play with the gears.
the gear box is also a dream. Easily the best manual I've driven.
few pictures for those that are interested.
G
S2000 values seem to have leapt over the last couple of months - there are currently 10 cars above £19,495 on Autotrader, ceiling price £22,500.
I definitely believe they will go down as a modern classic, if they aren’t already.
Having come from a Caterham and S1 Elise Sport 135, the S2000 is leagues ahead in terms of drivetrain and engineering.
Admittedly it is no equal to the handling of either of the other two, but then few cars are.
Brilliant cars, bullet proof mechanically, utterly superb engine, one of the best manual gearboxes ever made, and still looks sharp today 22 years after the design was released.
I’m finding it hard to add miles these days, it’s only covered 23,700 miles and I really have to put that right. Euro trip on the cards, if ever the restrictions are lifted...
I definitely believe they will go down as a modern classic, if they aren’t already.
Having come from a Caterham and S1 Elise Sport 135, the S2000 is leagues ahead in terms of drivetrain and engineering.
Admittedly it is no equal to the handling of either of the other two, but then few cars are.
Brilliant cars, bullet proof mechanically, utterly superb engine, one of the best manual gearboxes ever made, and still looks sharp today 22 years after the design was released.
I’m finding it hard to add miles these days, it’s only covered 23,700 miles and I really have to put that right. Euro trip on the cards, if ever the restrictions are lifted...
I owned a yr1999 S2000 in Monte Carlo blue for 2 years.
Bought for £2795 with (IIRC) 116k on the clock. Sold with about 125k on the clock for £3500.
I've also owned 3 x 986s and 2 x 987.2s.
My first impression of the Honda was that it lacked the oomph of my proceeding 2.2 JDM Prelude. It just seemed to scream but not really 'pull' if that makes sense.
But then you look down at the speedo and realise the numbers are going up pretty damn rapidly. It took me a few months to 'dial in' to the car, after which point I absolutely adored it.
Fast forward a few years and my dabble with Porsche ownership. They are measurably and objectively 'better' cars by most criteria, except perhaps reliability.
But are Boxsters subjectively 'better' than S2000s? That's a personal opinion. In a way, it's tough on the Honda that the two are often compared, because their ethos and approach is so different. The Boxster is one of a series, but the S2000 is one of a kind.
I would say that the S2000's flaws reduce it from being 'great' to 'very good' on an objective level.
However, for those who get them, they are a 'great' car on a subjective level, in that they are so unique.
Bought for £2795 with (IIRC) 116k on the clock. Sold with about 125k on the clock for £3500.
I've also owned 3 x 986s and 2 x 987.2s.
My first impression of the Honda was that it lacked the oomph of my proceeding 2.2 JDM Prelude. It just seemed to scream but not really 'pull' if that makes sense.
But then you look down at the speedo and realise the numbers are going up pretty damn rapidly. It took me a few months to 'dial in' to the car, after which point I absolutely adored it.
Fast forward a few years and my dabble with Porsche ownership. They are measurably and objectively 'better' cars by most criteria, except perhaps reliability.
But are Boxsters subjectively 'better' than S2000s? That's a personal opinion. In a way, it's tough on the Honda that the two are often compared, because their ethos and approach is so different. The Boxster is one of a series, but the S2000 is one of a kind.
I would say that the S2000's flaws reduce it from being 'great' to 'very good' on an objective level.
However, for those who get them, they are a 'great' car on a subjective level, in that they are so unique.
I had one for a few years, I did look into the Boxster but the Honda reliability and running costs swayed me to the S2000. Only ever developed one fault which was a free fix (ecu reset).
They don't feel that fast until you are up against something much more powerful, then you notice it's 237hp is used to very good effect. As already mentioned under 5k it's totally gutless but that was part of the fun for me. Mine would hit 9k quite often (maybe as it had no clutch delay valve like the more recent ones)
A true true great!
I must admit it did scare me a bit around the twisties
They don't feel that fast until you are up against something much more powerful, then you notice it's 237hp is used to very good effect. As already mentioned under 5k it's totally gutless but that was part of the fun for me. Mine would hit 9k quite often (maybe as it had no clutch delay valve like the more recent ones)
A true true great!
I must admit it did scare me a bit around the twisties
F20CN16 said:
Need a definition around gutless because I can tell you that my S2000 shifts at 5000rpm. I’d love to get to the bottom of why so many people say it’s gutless below VTEC - dragging brakes!?
Because compared to anything but a normal N/A 2.0 or less engine (very rare now for any kind of sports car or hot hatch) it makes little power down there?Olivera said:
Because compared to anything but a normal N/A 2.0 or less engine (very rare now for any kind of sports car or hot hatch) it makes little power down there?
But “gutless”? Gutless is what I’d use to describe say a transit van with 90bhp when it’s at full power. We’re talking about a 1200kg car with about 160bhp at 5000rpm… That’s not gutless.F20CN16 said:
Need a definition around gutless because I can tell you that my S2000 shifts at 5000rpm. I’d love to get to the bottom of why so many people say it’s gutless below VTEC - dragging brakes!?
I think a lot the gutless comments is not backed up by a fair assessment or comparison. The way the car was designed and how it made it's power, it had the highest output per litre of any NA engine and which was only beaten by the Ferrari 458 i believe, around 10yrs later.If we compare it to other NA engines as described, how can one say that the engine is gutless.
If the argument is that the power is gutless low down then maybe drive the car as it was designed to work then maybe it won't be so gutless.
It's like ordering one specific thing in a restaurant then complaining later that you expected it to taste like something else entirely different.
If the comparison is against a turbo engines at the time then that's a totally different matter all together- different laws of physics at work. Even then, with turbo lag, they have their issues also.
F20CN16 said:
But “gutless”? Gutless is what I’d use to describe say a transit van with 90bhp when it’s at full power. We’re talking about a 1200kg car with about 160bhp at 5000rpm… That’s not gutless.
The lack of torque makes it feel that way, but it's generally going quicker than you expect if you look at the speedo...this has been accentuated by all the FI engines people are now used to, that includes oil burners.trails said:
F20CN16 said:
But “gutless”? Gutless is what I’d use to describe say a transit van with 90bhp when it’s at full power. We’re talking about a 1200kg car with about 160bhp at 5000rpm… That’s not gutless.
The lack of torque makes it feel that way, but it's generally going quicker than you expect if you look at the speedo...this has been accentuated by all the FI engines people are now used to, that includes oil burners.It punches above its weight, so is always judged to a higher standard.. Pros and cons.
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