RE: Honda Civic Type R

RE: Honda Civic Type R

Author
Discussion

mondeoman

11,430 posts

265 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
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Now I'm gonna have to jump in...... my diseasal has plenty of grunt (360lbft) and accelerates like nothng I've ever driven before (and I have driven a 4.0l Griffith). 0-20 is sluggish 'cos there is no boost, but once the boost is in, I'm away. I've got 3500 rpm of useable revs, can plant my foot in fifth at 80 and know that in under 5 seconds I'll be doing over a ton.....at a relaxed 3000 rpm! Who needs a screaming, under-torqued motor and multiple gear changes? Gimme torque over power any day.

s2 giles

2,870 posts

274 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
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What I am pleased about, is the number of entries on this thread.

While there are real enthusiasts like you guys around, with varied likes & dis-likes then the choice of hot vehicles on the market surely can only expand.

Thick skinned TVR & Type-r driver

jeremyc

23,335 posts

283 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
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quote:
What I am pleased about, is the number of entries on this thread.

While there are real enthusiasts like you guys around, with varied likes & dis-likes then the choice of hot vehicles on the market surely can only expand.

Thick skinned TVR & Type-r driver

Well said! In an ideal world I, like many other PH'ers I suspect, would be able to maintain a large and varied fleet of exciting machinery and have a huge amount of time to devote to driving them.

I think I'd probably have a Type R in there somewhere.

Cerbera driver with lots of torque

Nacnud

2,190 posts

268 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
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Errm - Not all TVR's have a flat torque curve. At idle, you can stall my engine with over enthusiatic use of the steering pump.

However, two things to bear in mind.
1) My TVR is bloomin quick (despite the lack of torque).
2) I like having to change gear to work the car. It's fun and I wouldn't wan't to swap my torque curve for a flat one...

Have you considered an automatic ? I hear you can even accelerate from rest without changing gear
quote:

Tom, utter bs Driveability of a car is all about torque, not max power. A car with a flat torque curve such as a TVR is much more driveable than a car with low torque, max power at high revs. Torque = acceleration, bhp = top speed in a simple correlation. Add in weight of course. A TVR will accelerate at a vast rate in any gear at any speed, a type R will not. The ultimate I have experienced of this was a 427 AC Cobra (genuine), the acceleration from 15mph in top gear was phenominal, in fact you only needed to change out of top to start from stationary.

pbirkett

18,048 posts

271 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
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I believe a well disguised hot hatch is about to come out that not many people will notice, but will surprise many hot superminis, and that is the forthcoming Seat Ibiza TDI Sport, with 130bhp and 220+ lb/ft of torque (at around 1900rpm), I genuinely believe this car would give any car of a comparable price a run for its money.

My dad has the new Polo Sport TDI, with just 100bhp and around 180lb/ft of torque, and it really is suprisingly fast, despite not looking that fast on paper. My car has a similar power to weight ratio, and yet, this car would murder it on all but 0-60.

I think that 140lb of torque on Type R engine is a bit on the low side, but I reckon that with 7500rpm peak, it would be a fast and furious car to drive, but I cant see it having that instant kick that even a relatively modest turbodiesel can kick out. They are different types of cars that appeal to different markets, and is just at the end of the day a matter of opinions, but I feel Turbodiesels should be taken very seriously nowadays, as I've seen them embarass some so called hot hatches. That Golf GTI TD is a beast as well!

LotusV8

2,591 posts

283 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
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I say screw Honda. All this ricey type R garbage is getting old and fast! Maybe its because I live in America at eveyr light is some punk in a glued together mismatched color scheme of 1987 Accords who think their fast. I dont know, but I say with so many options in Europe, why would anyone buy a Honda?

pikey

7,698 posts

283 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
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quote:

I say screw Honda. All this ricey type R garbage is getting old and fast! Maybe its because I live in America at eveyr light is some punk in a glued together mismatched color scheme of 1987 Accords who think their fast. I dont know, but I say with so many options in Europe, why would anyone buy a Honda?



Thank you for that excellently constructed contribution.

PetrolTed

34,424 posts

302 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
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Well it made me laugh

JMorgan

36,010 posts

283 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
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Have they changed. Looks better.

pbirkett

18,048 posts

271 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
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Dam!!! I missed it was was it about then?

Rice boy

1 posts

263 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
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I think too many people focus on torque too much in a Hot Hatch, where is the problem with ringing a car to the redline. Racing cars are not built to loaf around at 4-5000 rpm so why should road cars, do you really short shift when racing another hot hatch? If so you would most likely lose, after all hot hatches are built for fun. Stiff suspension (ride) and noise should be made compulsory in sports hatches, those of you who complain about harsh ride and noise should look else where NOT the Type R, try the Clio sport 172 or Vauxhall Vectra.

CarZee

13,382 posts

266 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
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quote:
NOT the Type R, try the Clio sport 172 or Vauxhall Vectra.


Lee77

328 posts

276 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
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Why is it that the 2 of these that I have seen have both tried to race me from the lights?

Answers on a postcard please...

LotusV8

2,591 posts

283 months

Thursday 4th April 2002
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Pikey - I thought it was a very valid contribution u ass

Petrol - Glad to make you laugh

caribeiro

58 posts

271 months

Friday 5th April 2002
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It's a point of view.

To be honest, I see Honda engines with a double personality problem, this one is no diferent.

vteclimey

287 posts

280 months

Friday 5th April 2002
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i really have to laugh at threads like this. I have seen so many its unreal.

Some people like high capacity engine with a (reletively) low red line so they can lazily drive without having to change gear much.

Others (like me) beleive you have to put effort into your driving to get rewards from it and prefer an engine that you have to use. It needs to be revved hard and in all the gears to make any real progress.

Whats so funny is that so many of the people in each of the two camps think they are right and the others are wrong. How arrogant and narrow minded.

I say, thank goodness for diversity. You keep your v8s and your diesels and I'll stick to my stripped and noisy VTEC civic.

kevinday

11,555 posts

279 months

Friday 5th April 2002
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quote:


Sorry Kev, but I agree with Tom. Torque at the wheels gives you acceleration. The more power you have, the more you will accelerate - you just need to have the right gearing. I think the (most)relevant physics is:
power=mass*acceleration*speed
(which you can get to by rearranging the more common equations).
The reason that wide flat torque curves are nice is that you have a finite number of gears. But the ACTUAL peak torque figure is irrelevant. As long as you have plenty of grunt when you change UP, you have a wide enough torque curve. Diesels have HUGE torque figures, but it often isn't over a wide enough range => crap real world performance.

Discuss



I quite agree, torque at the wheels gives you acceleration, that is precisely my point. If the engine has little torque, there can only be little torque at the wheels.

thommo41

23 posts

263 months

Friday 5th April 2002
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My piss poor torque gives me 0-60 in 6.4 seconds, in a brand new, 16K car I do belive this is what you call "acceleration"?. But how, how can it do 0-100 in 16.9 seconds? With such a poor torque figure, which is what (in ur words) gives "acceleration", how can it be done?

I hope one day you all get a family, and have to buy a new car with a budget of 16 grand!! You'll all be like "Oh no dear, this one has no torque" PAHH!!

Alan

M15ley

466 posts

268 months

Friday 5th April 2002
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I'm inclined to agree, I had an accord Type-R for a while and you really do have to wind them up so the V-TEC bit works properly and the screaming is very intrusive. So what is the best hatch then? Clio 172?, Audi S3?

civic esi

19 posts

265 months

Friday 5th April 2002
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What Tom was talking about was the torque multiplication effect of gears, or did you not do physics at school. If you reduce the speed using gears which is what a gearbox does, then you increase the torque by the same factor. So if you have a high revving engine, you use shorter gears, and more of them. This means that your torque at the wheels in first and second is much higher than it would be for an engine of the same power, but lower revving.

say you have 2 cars that are travelling at a speed that means the wheels are turning at 500rpm (30ish mph on 17" wheels). Car A has 300lbft@3000rpm, Car B has 140ftlb @7000 rpm both drop down to the perfect gear (only theoretical, i know gears arent that simple its only a demonstration) so that thay are at peak torque. This means

Car A
3000rpm/500rpm = 6:1 reduction
6x300lbft = 1800Nm at the wheels

Car B
7000rpm/500rpm = 14:1 reduction
14x140lbft = 1960Nm at the wheels

so in this case the punny high revving small torque engine has MORE TORQUE AT THE WHEELS!

To be fair this is only theory, and it is more likely that with a larger flatter torque curve you will get better torque at the wheels over a wider range of speeds and gears. Also gears arent that well spaced, this would only work with a CVT, which we dont like, but it makes the point. Just cause your engine has bags of torque doesnt mean it will be quick!