Wet Track days...love em or hate em?
Discussion
I remember Oulton one mid-December, wet in the morning, then dried everywhere but at the back of the circuit. It was pretty hairy, as the tyres didn't like the combination of greasy wet and low temp.
Worst in the wet was probably the old Anglesey, in the kink before the pit straight with the surface change, in a CRX VT with awful Toyos that didn't like the wet at all. Almost every direction change there ended in some correction.
Worst in the wet was probably the old Anglesey, in the kink before the pit straight with the surface change, in a CRX VT with awful Toyos that didn't like the wet at all. Almost every direction change there ended in some correction.
I much prefer dry days because I like to feel hard cornering and braking and also acceleration. I have a nearly 500bhp p ton kit car and can spin the wheels in the dry quite easily with out water on the ground. It also has no roof so wet track days are not comfortable.
Being a light car I find the tyres take some warning in the wet and I never really have the confidence to push too hard. Cornering isn't the problem it's generally the braking zones as it so easy to lock them up.
Being a light car I find the tyres take some warning in the wet and I never really have the confidence to push too hard. Cornering isn't the problem it's generally the braking zones as it so easy to lock them up.
I no a chap who runs an evo,he loves the wet because he has 4 wheel drive and has so much technology with modern electronics he find it almost impossible to spin as his ecu takes over from locking his brakes etc etc,but this all comes at a cost,along with wet tyres,modern tech stuff costs loads it helps but is it really the driver controlling it or the electronics//????????
Anybody can drive fast in the wet with four wheel drive with all the modern electronics to help you, rear wheel drive with old fashioned v8 technology,you have to understand your car, if its to wet and you dont feel comfortable and your running dry tyres,better being safe than hitting a wall,but hey that would be my choice, going to tracks like silverstone in the wet you have plenty of escapes to get out of trouble,but first you have to go to another track to see the difference........
Anybody can drive fast in the wet with four wheel drive with all the modern electronics to help you, rear wheel drive with old fashioned v8 technology,you have to understand your car, if its to wet and you dont feel comfortable and your running dry tyres,better being safe than hitting a wall,but hey that would be my choice, going to tracks like silverstone in the wet you have plenty of escapes to get out of trouble,but first you have to go to another track to see the difference........
Edited by bish1963 on Monday 7th January 17:40
Edited by bish1963 on Monday 7th January 18:08
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKoxsmP5kXY
It's the driver that makes the difference.
[/quote]
But it does help with having thousands spent on race suspension and at the same time have full set of wets must surely make a difference,this video just shows that most just never had the correct tyres on for the conditions or didnt get any heat into them because they wernt actually going fast apart from yourself when u must have sneezed and missed your braking point, no spins as the electronics took in
It's the driver that makes the difference.
[/quote]
But it does help with having thousands spent on race suspension and at the same time have full set of wets must surely make a difference,this video just shows that most just never had the correct tyres on for the conditions or didnt get any heat into them because they wernt actually going fast apart from yourself when u must have sneezed and missed your braking point, no spins as the electronics took in
Edited by bish1963 on Monday 7th January 20:07
wellground said:
bish1963 said:
I no a chap who runs an evo,he loves the wet because he has 4 wheel drive and has so much technology with modern electronics he find it almost impossible to spin as his ecu takes over from locking his brakes etc etc,
A video of Mitsubishi track day in the wet (for anyone who hasn't seen it and chuckled a bit at it). Having 4 wheel drive doesn't make it almost impossible to spin. It seems by this video that 4x4 cars spin too. I guess all these cars had electronics to stop them spinning eh? Didn't seem to work that well. ;o))https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KKoxsmP5kXY
It's the driver that makes the difference.
I've got a V1 rs which comes with no abs, ayc or stability control and has good old mechanical diffs - and it is quite easy to spin
Edited by Trev450 on Tuesday 8th January 10:53
Don't think you can beat a bit of wet and dry on a trackday!!here's a couple of laps at oulton in the skoda 1.4 shopper :-)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw-uhCYRWbs&lis...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw-uhCYRWbs&lis...
sbridgey said:
If anyone fancies what will most likely be a wet track day at Llandow, look here it will be a very well run day with plenty of free tuition on hand.
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?6708...
Llandow is a great wet trackday. Always have fun there in the Megane.http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?6708...
I've not done any trackdays in my Caterham yet but I can't imagine I'd enjoy a wet one!
Just to clarify, not all Evos have electronic aids.
I beleieve the older Evos never had all the electronics like the evo ten had(the last one made)so were prone to spinning. If i can recall when they tested the Evo 10 on top gear they said it just stuck to the road, found it almost impossible to spin,of couse all cars will spin at some point but having all those extra bits certainely helps the driver, not like an old 42 year old car............
framerateuk said:
sbridgey said:
If anyone fancies what will most likely be a wet track day at Llandow, look here it will be a very well run day with plenty of free tuition on hand.
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?6708...
Llandow is a great wet trackday. Always have fun there in the Megane.http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?6708...
I've not done any trackdays in my Caterham yet but I can't imagine I'd enjoy a wet one!
4WDs may be able to get the power down but I wouldn't say they're easier in the wet. My Impreza was a real handful on the limit...much less predictable than the numerous RWD cars I've had. It was a '99 model though so didn't have any of the electronic crap.
Nevertheless I have to agree with the criticism of the driving in that Lancer video...pretty clueless for the most part. Maybe having all the driver aids stops you learning what to do when you exceed their capabilities and do actually start to lose control?
Nevertheless I have to agree with the criticism of the driving in that Lancer video...pretty clueless for the most part. Maybe having all the driver aids stops you learning what to do when you exceed their capabilities and do actually start to lose control?
Edited by T0MMY on Tuesday 8th January 18:25
Edited by T0MMY on Tuesday 8th January 18:26
In my opinion, that's very much the case; Not only do you have a far bigger problem to deal with when the electronics finally run out of ideas, but you don't learn to control, or sense the limit handling. For most of the time, on the road, the electronics are a wonderful safety net, but on the track you're (presumably) aiming to drive on the limit.
Take an example of two very similar cars: My older 986S with no electronics and a mates newer 987. Exiting a 3rd gear corner in the dry, if I pile on the power I get a bunch of understeer. More power more understeer.. so I manage that with throttle, and after a while learn to take a slightly different line (later apex) that lets me get a better exit.
I then went out in the 987. Same place, same corner, more electronics. He plants his right foot absurdly early, pre-apex. Car attempts to go straight on, he turns the wheel more. The electronics intervene, and quite subtly I admit - it trims back the power and (I think) dabbles with the inside rear brake, the car rotates as required, and he gets out the corner where he wanted to, most importantly/unfortunately none the wiser as to what just happened.
In the 986 turning the wheel would have made no difference, and faced with a grass bank he would have (presumably) realised the error of his ways and got out of the throttle. Over time you learn more subtlety, both in application (small input, small response), and importantly in sensing what's happening. Hopefully then you're starting to understand why the car's doing what it's doing, and everything becomes more harmonious, predictable, smooth, and as a result, fast.
Usually the 'fix' for just about any situation is to reverse the input you made 1/2 a second ago (the one that caused it) - if there's just you in the loop, it's pretty crystal what that input was. If there's a second brain playing, then the causality isn't (necessarily) that straightforward.
Finally a 4wd rant: It's 4 wheel **DRIVE**. All cars steer on two (give or take), and brake on 4. 4x4/4wd only makes a difference to traction (and if we're being picky on a trailing throttle). Just 'cos it's got 4wd it isn't nailed to the floor. Advertising hyperbole. Sorry. Pet Peeve!
Oh yeah, wet or dry - I love both. Wet is less forgiving of hamfistedness, and scares off most of the loons. Downside, the loons are more frightening in the wet!
Take an example of two very similar cars: My older 986S with no electronics and a mates newer 987. Exiting a 3rd gear corner in the dry, if I pile on the power I get a bunch of understeer. More power more understeer.. so I manage that with throttle, and after a while learn to take a slightly different line (later apex) that lets me get a better exit.
I then went out in the 987. Same place, same corner, more electronics. He plants his right foot absurdly early, pre-apex. Car attempts to go straight on, he turns the wheel more. The electronics intervene, and quite subtly I admit - it trims back the power and (I think) dabbles with the inside rear brake, the car rotates as required, and he gets out the corner where he wanted to, most importantly/unfortunately none the wiser as to what just happened.
In the 986 turning the wheel would have made no difference, and faced with a grass bank he would have (presumably) realised the error of his ways and got out of the throttle. Over time you learn more subtlety, both in application (small input, small response), and importantly in sensing what's happening. Hopefully then you're starting to understand why the car's doing what it's doing, and everything becomes more harmonious, predictable, smooth, and as a result, fast.
Usually the 'fix' for just about any situation is to reverse the input you made 1/2 a second ago (the one that caused it) - if there's just you in the loop, it's pretty crystal what that input was. If there's a second brain playing, then the causality isn't (necessarily) that straightforward.
Finally a 4wd rant: It's 4 wheel **DRIVE**. All cars steer on two (give or take), and brake on 4. 4x4/4wd only makes a difference to traction (and if we're being picky on a trailing throttle). Just 'cos it's got 4wd it isn't nailed to the floor. Advertising hyperbole. Sorry. Pet Peeve!
Oh yeah, wet or dry - I love both. Wet is less forgiving of hamfistedness, and scares off most of the loons. Downside, the loons are more frightening in the wet!
bish1963 said:
I no a chap who runs an evo,he loves the wet because he has 4 wheel drive and has so much technology with modern electronics he find it almost impossible to spin as his ecu takes over from locking his brakes etc etc,but this all comes at a cost,along with wet tyres,modern tech stuff costs loads it helps but is it really the driver controlling it or the electronics//????????
Anybody can drive fast in the wet with four wheel drive with all the modern electronics to help you, rear wheel drive with old fashioned v8 technology,you have to understand your car, if its to wet and you dont feel comfortable and your running dry tyres,better being safe than hitting a wall,but hey that would be my choice, going to tracks like silverstone in the wet you have plenty of escapes to get out of trouble,but first you have to go to another track to see the difference........
Contrary to popular belief only the Evo 10 has Stability control, the rest are all down to the driver. AYC has nothing to do with braking wheels or keeping you from spinning, its just a fancy limited slip differential which helps you get the most traction in corners.Anybody can drive fast in the wet with four wheel drive with all the modern electronics to help you, rear wheel drive with old fashioned v8 technology,you have to understand your car, if its to wet and you dont feel comfortable and your running dry tyres,better being safe than hitting a wall,but hey that would be my choice, going to tracks like silverstone in the wet you have plenty of escapes to get out of trouble,but first you have to go to another track to see the difference........
Edited by bish1963 on Monday 7th January 17:40
Edited by bish1963 on Monday 7th January 18:08
I have span my evo 6 (with AYC) in the wet on a track day when I was really pushing it to the limit - to be fair though most of the time is pretty easy to catch and hold a slide.
I no a chap who runs an evo,he loves the wet because he has 4 wheel drive and has so much technology with modern electronics he find it almost impossible to spin as his ecu takes over from locking his brakes etc etc,but this all comes at a cost,along with wet tyres,modern tech stuff costs loads it helps but is it really the driver controlling it or the electronics?????
The car that i am talking about is the EVO 10, for everyone who is interested please open this link up and you will find a proffesional explaining what these cars are doing in wet, a very interesting video for all to watch
http://youtu.be/tGAjT6R0WBA
The car that i am talking about is the EVO 10, for everyone who is interested please open this link up and you will find a proffesional explaining what these cars are doing in wet, a very interesting video for all to watch
http://youtu.be/tGAjT6R0WBA
Edited by bish1963 on Wednesday 9th January 19:29
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