Learning turn-in speed

[GarageQueen]

ok, i've been on a few trackdays and experience days and i'd like to talk about turn-in speed.

On my last experience day in an F430, I had an instructor who built us up in speed over the laps and the speed at which he was instructing me to turn-in at was quite frankly crazy to me, but the car did stick and it was great and exciting.

Now....on my own, I just can't seem to compute (trust) what speed to turn-in at, and usually find it was well under where I could have been. It leaves me frustrated and a bit disappointed in the whole track experience. I'd like to learn on a trackday without having to need an instructor there the whole time.

thoughts?

[Order66]

Hours in the seat - its the only way to learn. Just keep going round until you get faster. People are always looking for a quick-fix to become a fast driver, but in most cases putting in the hours is what's needed.

[upsidedownmark]

This, plus how you attack it:

1) Often you'll have a cone or pick something - whatever you need a consistent turn *in* point.
2) Then, brake as hard as you possibly can. Always. This eliminates one variable - on the road you typically vary how hard and when - it's hard to be consistent. On the track nail the brakes as hard as you can without locking, every time.
3) Next, pick a (safe) braking point. Nail the brakes hard.
4) As you reach the turn in point get off the brakes and turn in. Load the car up as hard as you can laterally..
5) Assuming you didn't mess up 3, you easily got the apex, and could get on the power pretty early.

Next time around, move the braking point a bit closer. Repeat until you're *having* to use all the track on exit, and *just* hitting the apex.

Then finesse coming off the brakes for more corner speed - if you jump off and turn in, you'll not spin, but you'll most likely get understeer as you unload the fronts at the point of asking them to steer. To be really fast you'll trail them to some extent, but if you trail them too much the back will come round - that's why they tell you in the briefing to brake in a straight line - take that a bit at a time - eventually you'll be slightly decelerating most of the way to the apex, and accelerating out. If you do start to loose the rear trailing in, just get off the brakes, open the steering and use a bit of kerb/grass - unlikely that last 2-3mph will see you properly off.

Key points are a decent turn in point, and braking to the limit of the car each time, so all you need to change is when you hit the pedal.

That and time with an instructor.

[loggyboy]

Balls cant be taught... only slightly grown over time. Buy a cheap car, spend some money on a cage, hans and harnesses and this may help.

[mpit]

Tuition and seat time.

Learning with braking points is probably just going to have you learning with bad habits. You might argue where you come off the brakes is far more relevant, but again, it's all about seat time - the tuition ensures you're learning the right things from the outset.

[upsidedownmark]

Why so mpit? All it does is provide a framework for incrementally increasing corner entry speed in a controlled manner, rather than taking a 'hail mary', or a wild assed guess.

OP didn't say he couldn't pick a line - really it's all down to how fast you're going and where you turn in. Where you get off the brakes should be as / while you turn in (depending on trail braking)

[NJH]

Your last point is the key and is what he is getting at, come up off the brakes after a balls out stop and then turn will just result in wash out understeer in most cars including well set up ones IMHO.

[Steve H]

Instruction is the key for many drivers. A good instructor will not only get you to go faster while he's in the car but also help you understand how to continue that progress after he's got out.

Regarding judging entry speeds, he will often know far more about your car's capabilities (and indeed your capabilities) than you do so he can help you build more speed, more quickly, while staying on the right side of your safe limits.

[mpit]

upsidedownmark said:

Why so mpit? All it does is provide a framework for incrementally increasing corner entry speed in a controlled manner, rather than taking a 'hail mary', or a wild assed guess.

OP didn't say he couldn't pick a line - really it's all down to how fast you're going and where you turn in. Where you get off the brakes should be as / while you turn in (depending on trail braking)

Ultimately, I think you'll take a corner as fast as your judgement will allow regardless of braking points, so braking later often just leads to braking harder.

When the OP talks about corner entry speed, I think of fast corners because they are the hardest to judge and the hardest to experiment with as a new driver, I think?

I'm not convinced that braking as hard as you can and turning in straight off the brakes is really the best way to approach such a corner, and this is the kind of bad habit I was talking about.

I personally think the best way to retrain your judgement on corner entry speed is to spend some time with a coach both with them driving and them instructing you. My biggest revelation in my ongoing attempts to learn to drive was seeing just how fast someone else can peddle my car from the outset.

Edited by mpit on Monday 17th April 23:16

[upsidedownmark]

OK, we'll have to agree to disagree to some extent, but:

mpit said:

Ultimately, I think you'll take a corner as fast as your judgement will allow regardless of braking points, so braking later often just leads to braking harder.

You fundamentally missed my point - there is no such thing as harder - every stop should be braking as hard as possible - that's the whole point.
For one there's no purpose in doing otherwise.
For two it means there's no variation *other* than the braking point.

Attempting to judge the speed and point that you're coming off the brakes after a variable effort and distance braking zone is utter nonsense and will only result in inconsistent arrival speed; that will screw you up completely.

Otherwise I agree that coming off the brakes will result in turn in understeer. I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing if you're trying to build confidence and get into the ballpark.

How you come off the brakes is the key to the next level, but if you're jumpy, the last thing you need is the rear rotating around when you *think* you still want to get a bit more speed off. That way lies a spin, even if you weren't actually going too fast.

All just IMHO of course, ymmv.

[james_gt3rs]

Best way to learn for me was to go out as a passenger in a similar car with a good driver, then you'll see what the car is actually capable of.

[C70R]

upsidedownmark said:

You fundamentally missed my point - there is no such thing as harder - every stop should be braking as hard as possible - that's the whole point.
For one there's no purpose in doing otherwise.

I think you're confusing racing with trackdays here. There's no harm whatsoever in braking earlier and more gently if it helps you learn how much speed you can carry through corners. This is how we learn and progress, after all...

[mpit]

upsidedownmark said:

You fundamentally missed my point - there is no such thing as harder - every stop should be braking as hard as possible - that's the whole point.
For one there's no purpose in doing otherwise.
For two it means there's no variation *other* than the braking point.

But an amateur driver is never going to be braking at 100% every time they brake. I don't know about your cars, but every car I've had on track has been capable of locking the wheels or hitting ABS thresholds when you mash the brake pedal, which means there is a level of judgement.

upsidedownmark said:

Attempting to judge the speed and point that you're coming off the brakes after a variable effort and distance braking zone is utter nonsense and will only result in inconsistent arrival speed; that will screw you up completely.

There's a really good book I read called "Speed Secrets" by Ross Bentley that explains braking far better than I will ever be able to, all I know is that I've found a marked improvement in my driving since implementing some of the things his book tries to teach.

I won't waste my time repeating what he says, but it's well worth a read.

[upsidedownmark]

Well, I guess I'm in the miniority..

As explained to me (by the instructor/coach), the important thing is to arrive at the turn in point with the car at the right speed (and gear and balanced). To do that, is it easier to judge and vary 2 inputs (distance and braking effort) or to fix one (braking effort) and simply pick the starting point? Instructors point was exactly that, and I agree - it worked well for me. Yes there will be a little variance, but if I try to brake at the limit of lockup from the 100m board I'll be a lot more consistent than waffling around with a sub maximal braking effort from somewhere arount the 200m. I know for sure I can't be looking at the speedo at turn in..

When I don't know a corner, that's exactly what I do - start with a conservative braking point, then move it closer as I figure it out. Anyway, banged the drum enough - that's my take and I'll shut up

[HustleRussell]

You aren't going to learn much on an experience day with a few laps in an unfamiliar car.

You need lots of seat time in a car you can take to it's limits.

[HustleRussell]

upsidedownmark said:

When I don't know a corner, that's exactly what I do - start with a conservative braking point, then move it closer as I figure it out. Anyway, banged the drum enough - that's my take and I'll shut up

That's surely what everybody does. I think what people are disagreeing with is this idea that an inexperienced guy doing an experience day in an F430 or a trackday in his own car should never be braking at less than 100% at any point.

[mpit]

Well yeah, arriving at the correct speed is the important bit.

I definitely buy in to the theory that this speed is all down to judgement, however.

Take Copse at Silverstone for example, I found more speed through there by braking at the same point but releasing the brake earlier and letting the car settle a bit before turning in - I'm carrying more speed because I wasn't braking as long and I was able to carry that speed because the car was more settled at turn-in.

It's a dark-art and I'm sure there aren't really any right or wrong answers when trying to articulate something that is so heavily based on judgement into something us amateurs can process.

This is why driver coaching is so key, because someone can directly respond to your actions in real-time, presumably based on their own superior judgement and knowledge

[boxsey]

I've found that cool down laps can be very helpful in letting me know what the car is capable of regarding turn in speed. Because on a cool down lap you're neither full throttle or using the brakes you can arrive at some corners at a slightly higher speed than you would have been on a proper lap. Because I'm relaxed in cool down mode and am resisting using the brakes I've found that the car turns in with no drama. This has taught me that I often over-brake the car for some corners. The trouble is, it's difficult to convince yourself to brake less on a proper lap because self preservation is very good at taking over the controls.

[Jerry Can]

boxsey said:

I've found that cool down laps can be very helpful in letting me know what the car is capable of regarding turn in speed. B

You're doing it wrong.

HTH

[motco]

upsidedownmark said:

This, plus how you attack it:

1) Often you'll have a cone or pick something - whatever you need a consistent turn *in* point.
2) Then, brake as hard as you possibly can. Always. This eliminates one variable - on the road you typically vary how hard and when - it's hard to be consistent. On the track nail the brakes as hard as you can without locking, every time.
3) Next, pick a (safe) braking point. Nail the brakes hard.
4) As you reach the turn in point get off the brakes and turn in. Load the car up as hard as you can laterally..
5) Assuming you didn't mess up 3, you easily got the apex, and could get on the power pretty early.

Next time around, move the braking point a bit closer. Repeat until you're *having* to use all the track on exit, and *just* hitting the apex.

Then finesse coming off the brakes for more corner speed - if you jump off and turn in, you'll not spin, but you'll most likely get understeer as you unload the fronts at the point of asking them to steer. To be really fast you'll trail them to some extent, but if you trail them too much the back will come round - that's why they tell you in the briefing to brake in a straight line - take that a bit at a time - eventually you'll be slightly decelerating most of the way to the apex, and accelerating out. If you do start to loose the rear trailing in, just get off the brakes, open the steering and use a bit of kerb/grass - unlikely that last 2-3mph will see you properly off.

Key points are a decent turn in point, and braking to the limit of the car each time, so all you need to change is when you hit the pedal.

That and time with an instructor.

A pretty accurate summation, IMHO, but remember to heel&toe down-changes, or at the very least rev-match because if you're on the limit already and you just change down without rev-matching, the sudden braking effect on the driven wheels (rear I hope) will lose the already tenuous grip. Many a spin has been triggered by dragging the engine revs up with the clutch.