Learning turn-in speed

[Jerry Can]

upsidedownmark said:

This, plus how you attack it:

1) Often you'll have a cone or pick something - whatever you need a consistent turn *in* point.
2) Then, brake as hard as you possibly can. Always. This eliminates one variable - on the road you typically vary how hard and when - it's hard to be consistent. On the track nail the brakes as hard as you can without locking, every time.
3) Next, pick a (safe) braking point. Nail the brakes hard.
4) As you reach the turn in point get off the brakes and turn in. Load the car up as hard as you can laterally..
5) Assuming you didn't mess up 3, you easily got the apex, and could get on the power pretty early.

Next time around, move the braking point a bit closer. Repeat until you're *having* to use all the track on exit, and *just* hitting the apex.

Then finesse coming off the brakes for more corner speed - if you jump off and turn in, you'll not spin, but you'll most likely get understeer as you unload the fronts at the point of asking them to steer. To be really fast you'll trail them to some extent, but if you trail them too much the back will come round - that's why they tell you in the briefing to brake in a straight line - take that a bit at a time - eventually you'll be slightly decelerating most of the way to the apex, and accelerating out. If you do start to loose the rear trailing in, just get off the brakes, open the steering and use a bit of kerb/grass - unlikely that last 2-3mph will see you properly off.

Key points are a decent turn in point, and braking to the limit of the car each time, so all you need to change is when you hit the pedal.

That and time with an instructor.

No.


Trying to maximise your lap time ( or corner speed if you're track daying) through braking means you are only concentrating on perfecting 30% of the lap. It is very difficult to brake as late as is possible, and hit your apex, and carry speed on the exit. If you brake at the last metre, you will miss the apex 1 or 2 times out of 5. So the half tenth you gain on the way in , you lose, and some, on the way out.

Better to know how late you can brake and then brake 5 or 10 m before that point and concentrate on getting off the brakes and onto the throttle as early as possible. This would significantly aid consistency and thus allow more concentration on corner speed. We could go into the realms of utilising the time between switching from brake to throttle to balance a car on entry but that is for another thread.

For a novice ( which it sounds like the OP is) he needs to focus on understanding how much grip his tyres will give in a corner. This essentially means getting on the gas earlier and earlier. Once you understand how hard you can lean on the tyres the more confidence you will have to go faster. The best place to learn this is on an opening type of corner, Palmer, Oggies or Williams at Snet might be good, Devils elbow at Lydden, Redgate at Donington, Brooklands and Silverstone would be good corners to learn how to lean on the tyres and go faster.

In general, there are 4 types of lap time for a driver, 10s off the pace ( all v a pro in your car), 5s off the pace, 1.5s off the pace, and setting the pace. Novices tend to be at 10s off the pace, and some drivers never get beyond that, experienced trackdayers ( especially those in faster cars) tend to stick at around 5s off the pace, once you have understood how much tyre grip you have you tend to be about 1.5s off the pace, and that final amount of time comes, from lines, consistency, maximising braking and accelerating zones and car set up. ( all these time diffs at a long circuit like the 300)

So to the OP, seat time, tuition, focus on understanding your braking point, braking just before it and work on getting off the brakes sooner, and the gas earlier. Coupled with an understanding of how hard you can lean on the tyres and working on a specific corner should have you sorted in no time.

Edited by Jerry Can on Tuesday 18th April 21:22

[NJH]

Jerry Can said:

boxsey said:

I've found that cool down laps can be very helpful in letting me know what the car is capable of regarding turn in speed. B

You're doing it wrong.

HTH

Jerry is right Boxsey mate, its the same problem as over-braking. Most corners you need to be bleeding off the brakes as you turn the car into the corner which by extension means you need to be travelling faster at the point you start to turn than your lowest speed in the corner. If you're already travelling at that lower speed and not braking at all its likely all you will experience is bags of understeer, which then gives a false indication of how fast you could have turned in. Its a hard thing to learn, I only learned after I gave up racing, I was really weak in that phase when I was racing and it takes big big balls of commitment to turn in much faster than you're used to doing.

Ben Demetriou in my race car was the person who opened my eyes, I data logged all our laps, he braked at the same point, turned in at the same points, throttle on at the same point, his max speeds on one of the straights actually consistently 2 mph lower than me but he managed to pull a clear 1.3s over my fastest lap by just coming up off the brakes a bit a bit earlier and carrying loads more speed on turn in and thus the first 1/2 of the corner entry. Obviously then braking later would have gained more time and pushing it to 100% quali levels more again. It was clever to demonstrate where I was weak and needlessly throwing away loads of time but honestly I would never have had the confidence to try until someone else did it in my own car.

[upsidedownmark]

Jerry Can said:

No.

(...)

Edited by Jerry Can on Tuesday 18th April 21:22

Well, I said I'd shut up, but....

I didn't suggest trying to optimise your laptime through braking at the last meter. I'm not even talking about trying to optimise a lap - I don't think that was the request from the OP. What was asked was how to get the corner speed up to something in the ballpark of what the car can do, when you don't know or have the confidence to just do it by judgement. He talks of being "well under what the car can do" (at turn in, and presumably as a result also mid corner). Having a framework to systematically creep up on that point will get you there, and ensure that any errors are not too gross and see you with an odd wheel off, not wildly over or under cooking it. That is all..

Agree with what you say is about optimising a lap.. but it rather assumes you already know pretty much what your braking points are, and you're finessing a few metres in the way you come off the brakes/on the power etc.. not that you don't have a scooby whether to brake at 300 or 200 metres. Slow in fast out is kinda relative - In that case, if you're already a slow enough your gran could roll it around it doesn't really matter how early you get on the 'gas'..

Edited by upsidedownmark on Tuesday 18th April 22:41

[boxsey]

NJH said:

Jerry Can said:

boxsey said:

I've found that cool down laps can be very helpful in letting me know what the car is capable of regarding turn in speed. B

You're doing it wrong.

HTH

Jerry is right Boxsey mate, its the same problem as over-braking. Most corners you need to be bleeding off the brakes as you turn the car into the corner which by extension means you need to be travelling faster at the point you start to turn than your lowest speed in the corner. If you're already travelling at that lower speed and not braking at all its likely all you will experience is bags of understeer, which then gives a false indication of how fast you could have turned in. Its a hard thing to learn, I only learned after I gave up racing, I was really weak in that phase when I was racing and it takes big big balls of commitment to turn in much faster than you're used to doing.

Ben Demetriou in my race car was the person who opened my eyes, I data logged all our laps, he braked at the same point, turned in at the same points, throttle on at the same point, his max speeds on one of the straights actually consistently 2 mph lower than me but he managed to pull a clear 1.3s over my fastest lap by just coming up off the brakes a bit a bit earlier and carrying loads more speed on turn in and thus the first 1/2 of the corner entry. Obviously then braking later would have gained more time and pushing it to 100% quali levels more again. It was clever to demonstrate where I was weak and needlessly throwing away loads of time but honestly I would never have had the confidence to try until someone else did it in my own car.

Thanks Neil..that's far more helpful than Jerry's one liner! Will try to take that on board for Oulton in a couple of weeks time.

[NJH]

Marcus Carniel practically lives at Oulton mate and of course is very familiar with racing all forms of pork. If and when I head up that way its likely I will try and call on his services.

People forget Stirling Moss saying that braking is the hardest thing to get right and that it took him 5 years of racing to learn how to brake properly.

[the_stoat]

My view is that learning turn in speed starts long before turning in. I started track days 3 years ago and have applied some learning from flying small aircraft. What I learned is that to improve you need to break tasks down and control the work rate to give yourself time.

Therefore what I would start with is braking and getting the car stable long before turn in. What I mean by this is do not try and nail your braking point every time, brake early get the car and you ready long before the corner, focus on the corner not braking. Once you get competent and have built up your speed you should find turning in is far more instinctive and requires less thought. In short your mental workload for turn in and cornering is now reduced.

I would then go onto to working on your braking as I too believe this is the hard bit, get that right as a single activity and then go on to bring braking and cornering together as one. You will not learn quickly if you take on too much 'work' at once.

The other point to note is that when you start to get it all together to a good standard you may actually feel slow as the car is settled and you are relaxed. When I take passengers out they normally comment that it does indeed feel slow, however a look at the data logs indicated I was several seconds a lap quicker than others who have taken them out (and scared them with a sensation of speed) and my apex speeds were much higher. I should point out that I am not a driving God and I had to work at getting competent, but as said above time in the seat is what you need. I also cannot stress enough that try and relax and don't force it, your are doing track days not races.

[ClassicChimaera]

The stoat, nice mate, like it.
Some great advice on here.
The smoother you make all these transitions the faster you will be.

Here's a trick to teach you understeer and how to use / control it with confidence and it's how you will want to take most corners when your circulating faster.
Come towards a corner that you can carry speed into, do this by braking slightly earlier and getting the car settled/ balanced and well lined up for the corner and apex then let go of the brakes early and try and take the corner, the faster you go the earlier you need to turn to take the corner, what your trying to do is slow the car to a safe speed then attack the corner with overspeed, not much is needed, you might start getting understeer as you've out lived the grip on the fronts, you've now found the level of grip in the front tyre's, regulate your speed by straightening up and braking a tad, regain front grip and carry on, you have to get used to loosing the front to be able to do something about it the day you also brake late as hell itself and Turn but the car doesn't, this is where left ft brake use is massive advantage because you can keep the car balanced with the throttle but control speed without upsetting balance by coming off the gas. Any of that make sense

[ClassicChimaera]

There's a gulf of difference between track day driving and racing.
A racer will aim to be at or slightly past the level of grip at times to rotate the car etc and if your not almost out of control your not fast enough, a knife edge.

The best drivers drive past the limit of grip, this has been developed over years most likely and drivers who gain such knowledge can get in most vehicles and find its level of grip within 2 or 3 corners, they have an inate saense of where the grip is, a few sharpe brake tests is often enough to understand the likely grip available, go through a slow corner, ( as it's not so dangerous) and deliberately overdrive the car to create slide, either by chucking it and getting the rear to rotate or braking and turning hard to create understeer, do it early and almost before the natural line on the track, gives you room to recover and use it as a way to find the levels of grip available.
It's simply about learning what grip is available on that day in time. It changes based on weather/ car etc so a fluid thing, basically you have to learn enough car control and speed of thought to have no fear when the car gets slightly out of shape. Eventually you can almost sense the car locking up or sliding, Senna said it was like an outer body experience in that he felt whatever the car did or was about to do he already knew it was about to happen, these milliseconds of brain agknowledgment that allow the best drivers to make small adjustments to speed before the car slides away out of control is what makes a great driver a god,,, he reads things ahead of time itself. It's simply a fact if you are catching a slide by turning into it after it starts, your to late and likely to spin, great drivers will take out a small amount of steering turn milliseconds before the slide then turn again, the car doesn't slide.

This anticipation can only come from hundreds of laps and or carting to push your base speed up and increase your reaction times to the dynamics involved in understeer/ oversteer. It works out the less you do the faster you are. Slow time down and everything becomes rather calm and things that take two seconds feel more like 4 or 5 because your ahead of the car.
Shummi once was asked, what cars faster than himself, he said non,,, not one car could he not get on top of and push it past its ability rather than his own. That's cos he's used to and uses understeer and oversteer at will if necessary.
So you have to learn to slide, be comfortable at that then bring it back a bit, you'll be very very fast if your smooth with it.

[pumper1]

[quote=mpit]

There's a really good book I read called "Speed Secrets" by Ross Bentley that explains braking far better than I will ever be able to, all I know is that I've found a marked improvement in my driving since implementing some of the things his book tries to teach.

I won't waste my time repeating what he says, but it's well worth a read.

Which of the series of books do you recommend as he has written 1/2 a doz. or so

[HustleRussell]

I kinda disagree with a lot of what has been said in here as I believe that braking and turning in are two processes which are basically inseparable, the potential speed of the latter being dependent upon the attitude of the car which is very much dependent on the former.

In my experience, turning into a corner with the car in a neutral condition is very rarely the fastest way through. This severely limits what can be learned by breaking the actions of braking and turning in into two separate processes.

In addition I tend to consider that braking harder is a function of braking later rather than the other way around. We know that exit speed is all important so we want to have the car rotated and accelerating again through the apex. To get that rotation the car needs to be given the correct attitude during braking and turn-in. Those are priorities one and two. You will explore he limits of braking as you move the braking phase deeper into the corner, but the idea that you should be braking at 100% whatever and coasting into the corner if you have 'over-braked' is a recipe for frustration. Looking for time in the braking phase is only priority number three.

[upsidedownmark]

Agreed..

That said, the OP asked (paraphrased) how can I past my own lack of confidence to get somewhere near the cars potential in a corner. Not 'how does a driving god get the last hundredth out of a lap'. The latter is all feel, trail braking, attitude and so on, the former not so much.

[HustleRussell]

It depends to a degree on the type of car but whole seconds can be found when progressing from the textbook 'brake in a straight line, then turn in' approach.

[Willbee]

IMO its important to know the correct line for a corner. Having a fundamental knowledge of the correct lines for corners of different geometries. In reality when thinking about an overall lap, the line will be influenced by the importance of the next corner.. (Long straight, fast exit etc). Tuition can help understand this.

Once you know the line for a corner you will have your exit and apex points. You need to know the corner apex and (unless blind turn-in) focusing on it before turn-in and ideally braking too. Braking points are a good rough guide to help when learning a corner but its better to focus on the corner than too much on the braking point. After all braking points can move!

After knowledge of lines, smoothness is important, feeling consistent weight transfer is more useful than braking on the limit. Building up gradually with late braking or braking intensity and getting on the throttle earlier lap by lap. Slight increases will mean it will be much more predictable when you exceed the tyres grip.

Ultimately knowing turn-in speed requires an amount of feel and familiarity for the braking and grip capability of the car and tyres. IMO you learn a lot about feel at the point of losing traction. This is when being smooth and subtle with inputs and minimising weight transfer becomes more important.

[NJH]

I actually agree 100% with a previous poster and will re-iterate a point I made earlier. Its much much easier (trust me it is) to learn where the apexes are and practice to get used to nailing it out of corners than it is to master braking and turning in. Therefore learn that part first. For starters if one is not confident and committed enough to get the loud pedal down and planted there you will never ever be fast regardless of anything else. Learning how to maximise corner entry and hence as its intimately related, braking; will take either huge natural talent or many years of practice and learning.

[upsidedownmark]

Equally, any numpty can 'nail the accelerator' if they drive in 20mph slower than the corner needs..

[Willbee]

if you dont know your 20mph under the entry speed as per OP though, learning to exit the corner first will shed some light. Nailing acceleration out of a corner at correct exit speed using line, apex, exit with varying, appropriate levels of (progressive) accelerator 'nailing'! Easier to send it in when you know how to get it out.

[skeeterm5]

When I was younger and starting our racing motorbikes I asked an old guy a similar question. His answer, keep going around the same corner building up your speed each time until you fall off, and then go a little slower!

S

[Willbee]

If he was both old and a bike racer, it was probably worth listening to his advice!

Certainly better advice than, if you don't crash you're not trying hard enough. I wish I had enough cash to be trying that hard though

[motco]

Willbee said:

If he was both old and a bike racer, it was probably worth listening to his advice!

Certainly better advice than, if you don't crash you're not trying hard enough. I wish I had enough cash to be trying that hard though

I believe Jim Clark was quoted as saying that if you make a mistake you will crash because if you don't you weren't giving 100%.

[loggyboy]

Willbee said:

If he was both old and a bike racer, it was probably worth listening to his advice!

Certainly better advice than, if you don't crash you're not trying hard enough. I wish I had enough cash to be trying that hard though

To quote an old comedian (frank spencer maybe?) - there are old pilots and bold pilots, but there are no old bold pilots.