Advice on track day tyre wear (AD08R)
Discussion
**Aug 2018: Update at the end of this message
Hello everyone,
Yesterday was my first track day, 20 minutes of track time at "Jarama" track near Madrid, with my bone stock '16 Seat Toledo 1.2 TSI (90hp).
I recently fitted a set of Yokohama AD08R (215/45 R16 88W) for this occasion, since I have another set of 15" wheels that I use for commuting (cheaper tires and better fuel economy). I used this tyres for commuting a couple of weeks and they are amazing, extremely stiff sidewalls and sticky rubber compound, yet perfectly comfortable in terms of noise and road compliance. For the street I was running 2,5 bar (36 psi) and the wear rate even in hot (35-40ºC) summer days and spirited B-road driving was perfectly normal.
During all my laps at the track I drove moderately hard on the turns and on the throttle, but gently on the brakes since I was warned that I could experience brake fade, overall my best lap was 2:30 (as a reference, a supercharged Opel Speedster was doing 1:52 the same day). I drove carefully, letting the faster drivers overtake me and taking it easy, the tyres performed brilliantly, I was literally "on rails" and the car was going exactly where I wanted at all times, the lateral grip felt endless and I did not feel the tyres become "greasy".
My colleagues on the stands told me that I looked dead slow compared to the rest of the cars
For the track I ran 2.0 bar (29 psi) cold tyre pressure on all four corners. The temperature at the track was 23ºC, I couldn't measure the tyre pressure after the laps.
I was expecting extensive tyre wear, but I was surprised to see the tyres were covered in chunks of rubber that looked like bubble-gum, please find some pictures of how the tyres looked after the track session. I expected this, but not that much. The chunks can be removed by hand and the rubber underneath has the normal shape of the thread.
Considering the conditions (low-power car, gentle driving, moderate outside temp., short 20 min drive) I wasn't expecting so much wear. All four tyres showed similar results, maybe the fronts slightly more (FWD with more load on the front)
What do you think?
Is this due to overpressure or underpressure? The edges don't look bad, so it looks more like high pressure to me.
Should I have taken a couple of cool down laps during the 20 minute run?
Thanks in advance
**August 2018
So, after that track day anther one came up in October and the tyres performed extremely well, I got again the chunks of rubber everywhere. Winter came and I replaced the Yokohamas for the other set I use, fitted with Goodyear Efficient Grips (about to be replaced) and then new Firestone Roadhawks. The Yokohamas were stored at my garage waiting for the summer.
At the end of June 2018 I reinstalled the Yokohamas and started using them again. This time I noted something had changed, the tires now feel harder to the touch and the grip is not surprising anymore, even hot. Aging? Heat cycling I guess?
I participated in another track day and it was obvious that the grip had decreased dramatically, the tire performed just like a regular tyre only when it was blazing hot. I confirmed another difference, the tire allows a significant amount of slide when cold and it doesn't squeal at all. When hot, the tyres now squeal significantly when pushed a bit, and as I said the grip is not as huge as it was in 2017. At least the tyre is very predictable and there is a little more grip when it slides.
At this point I'm fairly dissappointed with these tyres, now they are too hard even when hot and the grip is mediocre, they are 10.000km old now and I'm sure they would last over 30.000km (too long, I fitted these for the grip, not for economy), technically they have ended its life cycle although they have over 6mm of thread depth. I'm "scared" to use them in the wet or when the temperature goes bellow 15ºC, when new the cold grip was well above any nomal tyre, now it's like a chinese cheap tyre. I'll try to wear them down but certainly will not buy them again.
BTW, the set of Firestone Roadhawks I fiited at the beginning of 2018 surprised me for its AMAZING dry and wet grip and its handling. Honestly, they outperform both the Efficient grips and the (old) AD08R and are very cheap, fuel economy isn't outsanding but I highly reccommend them.
Cheers
Hello everyone,
Yesterday was my first track day, 20 minutes of track time at "Jarama" track near Madrid, with my bone stock '16 Seat Toledo 1.2 TSI (90hp).
I recently fitted a set of Yokohama AD08R (215/45 R16 88W) for this occasion, since I have another set of 15" wheels that I use for commuting (cheaper tires and better fuel economy). I used this tyres for commuting a couple of weeks and they are amazing, extremely stiff sidewalls and sticky rubber compound, yet perfectly comfortable in terms of noise and road compliance. For the street I was running 2,5 bar (36 psi) and the wear rate even in hot (35-40ºC) summer days and spirited B-road driving was perfectly normal.
During all my laps at the track I drove moderately hard on the turns and on the throttle, but gently on the brakes since I was warned that I could experience brake fade, overall my best lap was 2:30 (as a reference, a supercharged Opel Speedster was doing 1:52 the same day). I drove carefully, letting the faster drivers overtake me and taking it easy, the tyres performed brilliantly, I was literally "on rails" and the car was going exactly where I wanted at all times, the lateral grip felt endless and I did not feel the tyres become "greasy".
My colleagues on the stands told me that I looked dead slow compared to the rest of the cars
For the track I ran 2.0 bar (29 psi) cold tyre pressure on all four corners. The temperature at the track was 23ºC, I couldn't measure the tyre pressure after the laps.
I was expecting extensive tyre wear, but I was surprised to see the tyres were covered in chunks of rubber that looked like bubble-gum, please find some pictures of how the tyres looked after the track session. I expected this, but not that much. The chunks can be removed by hand and the rubber underneath has the normal shape of the thread.
Considering the conditions (low-power car, gentle driving, moderate outside temp., short 20 min drive) I wasn't expecting so much wear. All four tyres showed similar results, maybe the fronts slightly more (FWD with more load on the front)
What do you think?
Is this due to overpressure or underpressure? The edges don't look bad, so it looks more like high pressure to me.
Should I have taken a couple of cool down laps during the 20 minute run?
Thanks in advance
**August 2018
So, after that track day anther one came up in October and the tyres performed extremely well, I got again the chunks of rubber everywhere. Winter came and I replaced the Yokohamas for the other set I use, fitted with Goodyear Efficient Grips (about to be replaced) and then new Firestone Roadhawks. The Yokohamas were stored at my garage waiting for the summer.
At the end of June 2018 I reinstalled the Yokohamas and started using them again. This time I noted something had changed, the tires now feel harder to the touch and the grip is not surprising anymore, even hot. Aging? Heat cycling I guess?
I participated in another track day and it was obvious that the grip had decreased dramatically, the tire performed just like a regular tyre only when it was blazing hot. I confirmed another difference, the tire allows a significant amount of slide when cold and it doesn't squeal at all. When hot, the tyres now squeal significantly when pushed a bit, and as I said the grip is not as huge as it was in 2017. At least the tyre is very predictable and there is a little more grip when it slides.
At this point I'm fairly dissappointed with these tyres, now they are too hard even when hot and the grip is mediocre, they are 10.000km old now and I'm sure they would last over 30.000km (too long, I fitted these for the grip, not for economy), technically they have ended its life cycle although they have over 6mm of thread depth. I'm "scared" to use them in the wet or when the temperature goes bellow 15ºC, when new the cold grip was well above any nomal tyre, now it's like a chinese cheap tyre. I'll try to wear them down but certainly will not buy them again.
BTW, the set of Firestone Roadhawks I fiited at the beginning of 2018 surprised me for its AMAZING dry and wet grip and its handling. Honestly, they outperform both the Efficient grips and the (old) AD08R and are very cheap, fuel economy isn't outsanding but I highly reccommend them.
Cheers
Edited by Pableras on Sunday 12th August 16:38
Perfectly normal compared to the many that I have seen before.
For future reference I would definitely recommend taking a tyre pressure gauge next time, you should start maybe 10% low & when the tyres warm up they will end up at the correct pressures but having said that this in not excessive tyre wear due to pressures, it will just help you to keep track of where they are & adjust as required.
I normally start the day with 10/15% down, do a handful of laps, checks them & drop as required to keep the pressures around the normal cold pressures + 5%.
For future reference I would definitely recommend taking a tyre pressure gauge next time, you should start maybe 10% low & when the tyres warm up they will end up at the correct pressures but having said that this in not excessive tyre wear due to pressures, it will just help you to keep track of where they are & adjust as required.
I normally start the day with 10/15% down, do a handful of laps, checks them & drop as required to keep the pressures around the normal cold pressures + 5%.
As above, the chewing gum look is completely normal and due to hot tyres picking up rubber from the track.
Deffo want a tyre pressure gauge for after sessions. 29 cold is pretty high you'll soon find, especially with track tyres like AD08R. With more experience, you'll probably find about 29 hot is a good place to start on tyres like that! But you'll never know what your hot pressures will be without a gauge and all 4 tyres will require different pressure adjustments to meet it as they carry different amounts of load over the course of a session.
Deffo want a tyre pressure gauge for after sessions. 29 cold is pretty high you'll soon find, especially with track tyres like AD08R. With more experience, you'll probably find about 29 hot is a good place to start on tyres like that! But you'll never know what your hot pressures will be without a gauge and all 4 tyres will require different pressure adjustments to meet it as they carry different amounts of load over the course of a session.
Thanks for your advice, I'll take the gauge the next time, I honestly expected the track to have a compresor.
After some further inspection, yes, some chunks may be from other guys tyres, but some other clearly belong to my own tires.
What would have happened if I had a 290hp Seat Leon Cupra? I assume I would have melted the tires.
The reason I ask this is because I checked other people tyres (Pilot Supersport, Nangkang NS2R, Federal 595 RSR,...) and, yes most of them showed signs of rubber on the edges of the thread, but not as much as me, and all of them were faster/had more powerful cars than me.
After some further inspection, yes, some chunks may be from other guys tyres, but some other clearly belong to my own tires.
What would have happened if I had a 290hp Seat Leon Cupra? I assume I would have melted the tires.
The reason I ask this is because I checked other people tyres (Pilot Supersport, Nangkang NS2R, Federal 595 RSR,...) and, yes most of them showed signs of rubber on the edges of the thread, but not as much as me, and all of them were faster/had more powerful cars than me.
Edited by Pableras on Sunday 12th August 16:39
I race on AD08Rs with 440 bhp through the front wheels. They do go off a bit after 6 or 7 laps but they don't melt and look remarkably fresh post-race.
With the greatest respect I think you could drive the absolute nuts off your Seat and not get to the performance limit of AD08Rs.
Suggest you give it a try!
With the greatest respect I think you could drive the absolute nuts off your Seat and not get to the performance limit of AD08Rs.
Suggest you give it a try!
I've recently switched from having run 3 x set's of NS2-Rs to AD08-Rs on a 1350kg ish 380hp rwd car. Took 1 second of my best lap time at my local well known track with no set up change (combe 1:17:3) and the wear rate in comparison is amazing, after 3 x full TDs the outside front edge's are still looking fine, whereas the NS2-R most definitely wouldn't have been. Fantastic tyre, with the added bonus of them being far better on road in terms of ride comfort to the NS2-R I've found. I've also run in the past on a different but similar lay out car with 595rsrs, given the choice I would go for the ns2-r out of those two.
As said, pretty sure what you are seeing there is pickup on your tyres..
As said, pretty sure what you are seeing there is pickup on your tyres..
1781cc said:
Just to add, don't listen to your mates saying you were slow, go at your own pace, there will always be a faster car or faster driver no matter what you bring. It's all about YOU having fun
That's exactly what I said to my colleagues, I had fun driving and getting to know my car and this very technical track, it honestly felt fast enough to intimidate me, but I was also careful not to disturb the other drivers (letting others pass safely also slows you down).I'm thinking of going again in a couple of weeks
Really fantastic tyres. You can tell when you are caning them, the inner of the two bands will have the inner edge completely torn/bevelled off.
Also check your wheels. You will have stacks of rubber stuck onto the inside of your wheel rims and anywhere else in the wheel arches it can sit.
Also check your wheels. You will have stacks of rubber stuck onto the inside of your wheel rims and anywhere else in the wheel arches it can sit.
So, after that track day anther one came up in October and the tyres performed extremely well, I got again the chunks of rubber everywhere. Winter came and I replaced the Yokohamas for the other set I use, fitted with Goodyear Efficient Grips (about to be replaced) and then new Firestone Roadhawks. The Yokohamas were stored at my garage waiting for the summer.
At the end of June 2018 I reinstalled the Yokohamas and started using them again. This time I noted something had changed, the tires now feel harder to the touch and the grip is not surprising anymore, even hot. Aging? Heat cycling I guess?
I participated in another track day and it was obvious that the grip had decreased dramatically, the tire performed just like a regular tyre only when it was blazing hot. I confirmed another difference, the tire allows a significant amount of slide when cold and it doesn't squeal at all. When hot, the tyres now squeal significantly when pushed a bit, and as I said the grip is not as huge as it was in 2017. At least the tyre is very predictable and there is a little more grip when it slides.
At this point I'm fairly dissappointed with these tyres, now they are too hard even when hot and the grip is mediocre, they are 10.000km old now and I'm sure they would last over 30.000km (too long, I fitted these for the grip, not for economy), technically they have ended its life cycle although they have over 6mm of thread depth. I'm "scared" to use them in the wet or when the temperature goes bellow 15ºC, when new the cold grip was well above any nomal tyre, now it's like a chinese cheap tyre. I'll try to wear them down but certainly will not buy them again.
BTW, the set of Firestone Roadhawks I fiited at the beginning of 2018 surprised me for its AMAZING dry and wet grip and its handling. Honestly, they outperform both the Efficient grips and the (old) AD08R and are very cheap, fuel economy isn't outsanding but I highly reccommend them.
Cheers
At the end of June 2018 I reinstalled the Yokohamas and started using them again. This time I noted something had changed, the tires now feel harder to the touch and the grip is not surprising anymore, even hot. Aging? Heat cycling I guess?
I participated in another track day and it was obvious that the grip had decreased dramatically, the tire performed just like a regular tyre only when it was blazing hot. I confirmed another difference, the tire allows a significant amount of slide when cold and it doesn't squeal at all. When hot, the tyres now squeal significantly when pushed a bit, and as I said the grip is not as huge as it was in 2017. At least the tyre is very predictable and there is a little more grip when it slides.
At this point I'm fairly dissappointed with these tyres, now they are too hard even when hot and the grip is mediocre, they are 10.000km old now and I'm sure they would last over 30.000km (too long, I fitted these for the grip, not for economy), technically they have ended its life cycle although they have over 6mm of thread depth. I'm "scared" to use them in the wet or when the temperature goes bellow 15ºC, when new the cold grip was well above any nomal tyre, now it's like a chinese cheap tyre. I'll try to wear them down but certainly will not buy them again.
BTW, the set of Firestone Roadhawks I fiited at the beginning of 2018 surprised me for its AMAZING dry and wet grip and its handling. Honestly, they outperform both the Efficient grips and the (old) AD08R and are very cheap, fuel economy isn't outsanding but I highly reccommend them.
Cheers
Hi Pableras!
I'm from Madrid too, but living in the UK now. I've never driven the Jarama, i've only been as spectator, but everyone says it's a fantastic track! I'm glad to see other fellow spanish over here.
Getting to the point, that sudden hardening sounds really strange. I've been using the same tyres in my 120i for 3 track days and a trip to the nurburgring without any single problem, they still feel like the first day in terms of grip, handling and still lots of tread left.
However, 29psi for that car, in that conditions sounds too high for me. Madrid's sun is going to be heating the surface quite a lot, plus the tarmac in el jarama is quite abrasive if I'm not wrong. So you may have been overheating your tyres. I recommend you to start with 30psi (when hot) and then play with the pressure after each stint.
Now in the summer with super high temperatures, maybe you are putting even more heat on them, and they are too hot and just slide all over the place. Try to measure the pressure under working temperatures, and see how much you've got.
P.S: I use firestone roadhawk in my daily driver, and they are a very good tyre for the money, but they are absolutely nowhere near the yokohamas when they are performing well. Definitely something must be wrong with your tyres mate
I'm from Madrid too, but living in the UK now. I've never driven the Jarama, i've only been as spectator, but everyone says it's a fantastic track! I'm glad to see other fellow spanish over here.
Getting to the point, that sudden hardening sounds really strange. I've been using the same tyres in my 120i for 3 track days and a trip to the nurburgring without any single problem, they still feel like the first day in terms of grip, handling and still lots of tread left.
However, 29psi for that car, in that conditions sounds too high for me. Madrid's sun is going to be heating the surface quite a lot, plus the tarmac in el jarama is quite abrasive if I'm not wrong. So you may have been overheating your tyres. I recommend you to start with 30psi (when hot) and then play with the pressure after each stint.
Now in the summer with super high temperatures, maybe you are putting even more heat on them, and they are too hot and just slide all over the place. Try to measure the pressure under working temperatures, and see how much you've got.
P.S: I use firestone roadhawk in my daily driver, and they are a very good tyre for the money, but they are absolutely nowhere near the yokohamas when they are performing well. Definitely something must be wrong with your tyres mate
Edited by osdecar on Monday 13th August 11:32
Where were they stored over winter, and what sort of temperatures would they have seen?
I've read a few times about keeping (particularly track) tyres stored above 0-degrees Celsius to prevent damage, although I have also run AD08's all year round in the UK on a few cars with no issues (however that is with daily use, even in snow/ice which may keep them 'fresh').
I've read a few times about keeping (particularly track) tyres stored above 0-degrees Celsius to prevent damage, although I have also run AD08's all year round in the UK on a few cars with no issues (however that is with daily use, even in snow/ice which may keep them 'fresh').
Thanks for your replies.
I'm pretty sure the pressure is not the problem here, on the trackdays before the winter I know I was running high pressures, but the grip was great even though. The tyres were stored in a garage underground, the temperature rarely goes under 0ºC in the winter.
For the trackday after winter I took my pump to the track and I played with the pressure several times. I got the best results when I was running 29-30 psi hot, with anything under 26psi the tyres felt worse in terms of handling, without any improvement in terms of grip. Pressures over 33 made the tyre feel "greasy", but the difference wasn't huge. For the road I use 28 psi cold (recommended pressure), but last summer I ran 33 without any issues.
Honestly, the problem here is the change of hardness of the compound, during my first trackday the rubber was "sticky and soft" when hot, after winter it feels much harder when hot (just like a normal tyre when cold or just a tad softer), and I regularly drive with ambient temperatures over 35ºC on twisty mountain roads, so the temperature is not the issue.
I'm pretty sure the pressure is not the problem here, on the trackdays before the winter I know I was running high pressures, but the grip was great even though. The tyres were stored in a garage underground, the temperature rarely goes under 0ºC in the winter.
For the trackday after winter I took my pump to the track and I played with the pressure several times. I got the best results when I was running 29-30 psi hot, with anything under 26psi the tyres felt worse in terms of handling, without any improvement in terms of grip. Pressures over 33 made the tyre feel "greasy", but the difference wasn't huge. For the road I use 28 psi cold (recommended pressure), but last summer I ran 33 without any issues.
Honestly, the problem here is the change of hardness of the compound, during my first trackday the rubber was "sticky and soft" when hot, after winter it feels much harder when hot (just like a normal tyre when cold or just a tad softer), and I regularly drive with ambient temperatures over 35ºC on twisty mountain roads, so the temperature is not the issue.
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