Which tyre type for this car?

[YTee]

Yet another tyre topic, but it's not just a 'this versus that' question you'll be pleased to learn.

I have a Ford Focus 1.8 that I am using to learn track driving techniques. The car has about 125bhp after the minor mods I've done. Currently I'm running Toyo T1-Rs, but they are melting when pushed hard in the dry and I need a solution.

I have two sets of wheels: The original alloys (15 inch, 195 width tyres), and a set of ST170 wheels (17 inch, 215 width tyres). One set of wheels needs to be road worthy at all times, the other does not need to be. It doesn't matter which is and which isn't. I can take both sets of wheels to the track and swap them depending on weather.

I am looking for advice on which class and ratio of tyre to use on each set of wheels. By class, I mean standard road/performance road/semi-slick, and by ratio obviously 40/45/50 etc. I'm conscious of increasing rolling circumference, costing me valuable torque at the wheels.

The last criteria is to keep the cost to a minimum whilst eliminating the issue of melting tyres.

My current thoughts after doing some research are:

Toyo T1-R 215/40R17 - For road and wet track use.
Yoko AD08R 195/50R15 - For dry track use.

Is my logic sound or am I totally mad to consider using the smaller wheels for dry track use?

Many thanks in advance.

[quimbles]

choice is yours.

the wider the tyre will give you more grip depends if your chasing laptime or not.

if you went to a 215/45 you can get nankang, frederal etc for around £80

you can also get rainsport 3 for £40 in the 15inch. rainsport 2 was a great wet trackday tyre... not sure about the 3.

[ymwoods]

I use rainsport 3 (as suggested above) however in 275/35 (on the back) on a 300bhp car. I also only do track days for fun every few months but do try and push my limits where I can. This car is also my daily driver.

I find them very good in the dry and second to none (that I have tried so far, someone will be along to tell me how wrong I am) in the wet.

Everyone I know in Fords unless they are purpose-built racecars are also using the rainsports.

[YTee]

quimbles said:

if you went to a 215/45 you can get nankang, frederal etc for around £80

you can also get rainsport 3 for £40 in the 15inch. rainsport 2 was a great wet trackday tyre... not sure about the 3.

Not chasing outright laptimes, but I don't mind sacrificing width on the wet tyres if that means a better experience on the dry set. Good shout on the Rain Sports both, I'll look into those.

Regards going with 45 ratio tyres, that means a greater rolling circumference than the car started out with. Probably not too important, but I thought that was a bad thing. Also won't the bigger wheels be heavier and therefore more un-sprung mass? Maybe I'm over-thinking this though

[E-bmw]

If it were me I would probably be sticking with the 17s for track (firmer ride) & the 15s for road (more comfortable) however these don't seem to give you much choice on track, so to go the other way would be:



For wet track/road

and:



For dry track

[quimbles]

YTee said:

Not chasing outright laptimes, but I don't mind sacrificing width on the wet tyres if that means a better experience on the dry set. Good shout on the Rain Sports both, I'll look into those.

Regards going with 45 ratio tyres, that means a greater rolling circumference than the car started out with. Probably not too important, but I thought that was a bad thing. Also won't the bigger wheels be heavier and therefore more un-sprung mass? Maybe I'm over-thinking this though

its a minefield........ unless you can test you'll never really know!

do you have tyres on the bigger wheels at the moment, how does it feel?
the standard st170 ran 215/45r17 so it cant be too bad.
otherwise yes you will be a little higher about 2cm. coilovers?

id guess also the st170 alloys would be made from a light material (so about the same weight?)

either way you will have lots of fun

[E-bmw]

Oh, and by the way don't use T1R's they are a TERRIBLE TYRE!!!!! Especially in the wet!

[YTee]

Thanks for the input folks. I hadn't considered those Goodyears, they're a bit more money but could be worth it.

Let me explain my concern about circumference... (http://www.wheelcalc.com/)

The standard tyres on the car are 195/60R15.

215/45R17 represents a 1.76% increase in circumference versus standard wheels. So, I was looking at 215/40R17 instead which gives me a 1.37% decrease.

Given that less is better on this scale, I wanted to stick with 40 to get every last drop of torque from the meager power plant I have available.

However, if you're saying that using track class tyres like Nankangs or Federals is worth the 1.76% increase in circumference, then I would be happy to give it a whirl

[YTee]

E-bmw said:

Oh, and by the way don't use T1R's they are a TERRIBLE TYRE!!!!! Especially in the wet!

Hahaha. There's someone here in my office that says the same, but I actually found them pretty good. Of course, I'm not throwing much in the way of power (or skill) at them.

I will definitely change them once I've worn them down though, enough people have said they're rubbish now for me to start to believe it!

[Ahbefive]

Road tyres will all fall apart on a dry track day even the expensive michelins and Pirellis. Best to get a proper track based tyre.

As a road tyre the toyo t1R is pretty decent for the price and they are great in the wet.

[YTee]

Ahbefive said:

Best to get a proper track based tyre.

Thanks. That's the kind of confirmation that will help me to justify the cost of all this

[quimbles]

YTee said:

Thanks for the input folks. I hadn't considered those Goodyears, they're a bit more money but could be worth it.

Let me explain my concern about circumference... (http://www.wheelcalc.com/)

The standard tyres on the car are 195/60R15.

215/45R17 represents a 1.76% increase in circumference versus standard wheels. So, I was looking at 215/40R17 instead which gives me a 1.37% decrease.

Given that less is better on this scale, I wanted to stick with 40 to get every last drop of torque from the meager power plant I have available.

However, if you're saying that using track class tyres like Nankangs or Federals is worth the 1.76% increase in circumference, then I would be happy to give it a whirl

ah in that case dont even worry about it. you'll be needing to carry all the speed through the corners with 125 bhp anyway so the extra grip will help.

the 195/60 to 215/45 is only a 5mm height difference. but you'll be gaining a stiffer tyre wall and 2cm in width per tyre.

just for extra confusion.
i used to have ad08rs. only swapped to federals as they are much much cheaper in my tyre size. ad08rs are fine in the wet, you could leave them on all year. federals have a touch more grip and dont drop off so much when hot. but are useless in the wet. they also have mixed reviews this is on a sub 1 ton car.

[YTee]

quimbles said:

you'll be needing to carry all the speed through the corners with 125 bhp anyway so the extra grip will help.

That's an excellent point. Cornering performance will be more useful than straight-line performance. Okay, I'll give it a whirl!

[Flibble]

I use Yoko V105s as my all round road and track tyre. They don't melt too badly on a dry track, and I've not had any chunking despite some fairly long sessions (for road tyres at least). Plenty of grip, and nicely progressive at the limit. Cornering performance is around 1.1g in my car.
They're definitely available in 215/45/17 as that's my size.

[QBee]

YTee said:

Ahbefive said:

Best to get a proper track based tyre.

Thanks. That's the kind of confirmation that will help me to justify the cost of all this

I would normally agree with this sentiment, and Toyo R888R spring immediately to mind. In the size I use, about £1000 a set.

But,
I was doing a track day at Blyton Park a couple of months ago, nice twisty circuit, and found myself chasing a TVR Chimaera 4.5 around the track.
Every corner he gained a bit of ground, every straight I gained a bit.
After 15 laps really on the limit we were still the same distance apart.

So what?

So he was a novice on track driving and i am reasonably experienced.
I too was driving a TVR Chimaera 4.5, but mine has a turbo.
I actually had over 100 bhp more than him and about 170 ft lbs of torque more.
I was on worn track tyres, Yokohama A048s.

He was on a new set of Uniroyal Rainsport 3s.

I inspected them back in the paddock, and there was not a mark on them. No bits of rubber, no scuffing.
I expected them to be somewhat shagged, as i know they are a soft tyre that works from stone cold, as i have them on my Saab.

So my next set of track tyres will be Uniroyal Rainsport 3s.
About £300 a set, and a lot cheaper in 15 inch, by the way, around £50 a tyre.

[YTee]

Darn it QBee, why did you have to go and add another twist... I'm torn enough as it is!

What I found most interesting about your story was that not just one but two TVRs managed to keep going for 15 laps!! J/k

Seriously though, if what you're saying is true (and I've no reason to doubt it) then that's a huge deal, because it means I will only need one set of wheels and tyres for all weathers.

When I factor in that Rain Sport 3 are available in 215/40R17 as well, it's even more reason to go that route!!

Ahhhh the dilema!

[300bhp/ton]

Lots of replies. Not read all of them, apologies if this is mentioned already.

If it was me and I had a set of dedicated rims for only track use. Then I'd be looking for some part worn race slicks or remould race slicks. Or at the very least a tarmac rally/semi slick, either part worn or remould.

I'd buy whatever size is cheapest/most plentifull/ easiest to replace.

While rim and profile could make a difference. A switch to a track tyre will be far more significant than the differences between 15 & 17" rims - IMO

[YTee]

300bhp/ton said:

If it was me and I had a set of dedicated rims for only track use. Then I'd be looking for some part worn race slicks or remould race slicks. Or at the very least a tarmac rally/semi slick, either part worn or remould.

I'd buy whatever size is cheapest/most plentifull/ easiest to replace.

Interesting. I'm up for looking into that. Any idea where I might go look for things like that?

[QBee]

Ebay.

I did my most recent track day on worn race slicks, which fitted my 17 inch 7.5J rims.
My grip was excellent, and quite a bit better than my friend Peter, who was in a similar powered TVR Chimaera.
He was on Federal 595 RSRs.

He glanced at his speedo around Corams's at Snetterton (big sweeping 180 degree right hander).
He was hanging onto the car with tyres screaming, and was doing 70-75 mph.
He then took my car out and was 10 mph faster.
Same conditions, same driver, same power (395 bhp), same corner.

Only thing against using them is two points made to me by others:

1. Slicks put more strain on the suspension etc because of the improved grip
2. They can be rather sudden when you do eventually lose grip

[YTee]

I shall look on eBay and compare prices. Thanks folks. Wish me luck.