An 'auto' for track and town - Am I dreaming?
Discussion
Some of you might remember the last "what track car" thread I started around a year ago. Due to joining a startup, I never got around to consolidating two cars into a 'do it all' car. Priorities change, and all that...
In 2018, the objective is the same, albeit with a slightly higher budget and slightly different constraints. Due to moving even more centrally in London and no longer having the luxury of MrsC's company hack, we're going to be a single car household.
For ~£12k this car needs to:
While I appreciate that neither will be the last word in scalpel-sharp track weaponry, I'd be keen to hear the thoughts of those who have driven them on track.
ETA - I've also just realised that the Evo X came in some sort of hybrid auto flavour, so let's throw that in the mix too.
In 2018, the objective is the same, albeit with a slightly higher budget and slightly different constraints. Due to moving even more centrally in London and no longer having the luxury of MrsC's company hack, we're going to be a single car household.
For ~£12k this car needs to:
- Sit in busy London traffic (hence the need for an auto)
- Carry two people, plus two small pet carriers and weekend bags (probably means two-seaters/convertibles are out)
- Sit in relative comfort at 80-85mph on the motorway
- Be fun to drive on track, while not chasing laptimes (4-5 times a year)
- Have a few creature comforts (decent stereo, aircon etc.)
While I appreciate that neither will be the last word in scalpel-sharp track weaponry, I'd be keen to hear the thoughts of those who have driven them on track.
ETA - I've also just realised that the Evo X came in some sort of hybrid auto flavour, so let's throw that in the mix too.
Edited by C70R on Friday 5th January 22:59
How many track days are you planning? If it’s just the odd one every now and then I’d go for the best daily, anything a bit sporty will do for one or two track days.
If you’re planning on a few more then I’d be going for the cars with DSG, they can be updated and remapped as you mentioned to cope with a bit of abuse on the track.
If you’re planning on a few more then I’d be going for the cars with DSG, they can be updated and remapped as you mentioned to cope with a bit of abuse on the track.
Scirocco will do all of that.
Although I would suggest you spend a little bit on the brakes (<£700 will net you a really good setup) , as standard they are shocking.
The fit the rest of your bill though.
The E46 M3 would be more fun undoubtedly, but they are more expensive and complex to fix.
A Scirocco you can work on yourself much more easily.
You are correct there was an Evo X with some weird gearbox (think it was called Speedshift or something)
The issue with Evos are that inside they are not that nice, and also they are horrifically thirsty. 25mpg TOPS , averaging high teens most of the time.
Although I would suggest you spend a little bit on the brakes (<£700 will net you a really good setup) , as standard they are shocking.
The fit the rest of your bill though.
The E46 M3 would be more fun undoubtedly, but they are more expensive and complex to fix.
A Scirocco you can work on yourself much more easily.
You are correct there was an Evo X with some weird gearbox (think it was called Speedshift or something)
The issue with Evos are that inside they are not that nice, and also they are horrifically thirsty. 25mpg TOPS , averaging high teens most of the time.
Cheers both - helpful input. I must admit to being a bit underwhelmed by the DSG on Mk5 Golf GTi that I once drove, so I'd need to have a play with a remapped one at some point.
FWIW, the car will probably only be used once or twice a week (public transport takes the strain), so no need to worry too much about the practicalities/costs of a daily driver.
FWIW, the car will probably only be used once or twice a week (public transport takes the strain), so no need to worry too much about the practicalities/costs of a daily driver.
Steve H said:
I've been on track in a number of SMG E46 M3s and they have without exception all been godawful gearboxes. The box on the E92 is completely the opposite and a total joy to use but presumably out of budget in this case........
I did one session in a csl at Bedford and thought it was brilliant. Took a little bit of getting used to though. Horses for courses?Steve H said:
I've been on track in a number of SMG E46 M3s and they have without exception all been godawful gearboxes. The box on the E92 is completely the opposite and a total joy to use but presumably out of budget in this case........
A pal offered me his e92 at the trade value he was getting, and I was sorely tempted. But the potential running costs put a dent in my enthusiasm...Can you expand on the SMG point at all? Did the cars have the software update?
My E46 SMG (with CSL gearbox s/w) was great on track, you have to remember that it’s an automated manual gearbox and not a traditional automatic or a dual clutch setup. The biggest change the CSL s/w gives is rev matching on downshifts - I wouldn’t be without it. A fair few M3s have had it done, but it’s an aftermarket mod and not standard.
I personally find the DSG boxes lack driver involvement, they’re brilliant bits of kit in many ways but wouldn’t be my choice for a fun car. I’m by no means a hater of them, my next daily is going to be DSG.
If you’re tracking an E46 M3 don’t forget the brakes - the stock setup will wilt pretty quickly.
I’ll be selling mine in a few weeks, I’m going to miss it.
I personally find the DSG boxes lack driver involvement, they’re brilliant bits of kit in many ways but wouldn’t be my choice for a fun car. I’m by no means a hater of them, my next daily is going to be DSG.
If you’re tracking an E46 M3 don’t forget the brakes - the stock setup will wilt pretty quickly.
I’ll be selling mine in a few weeks, I’m going to miss it.
Edited by anonymous-user on Saturday 6th January 10:03
C70R said:
A pal offered me his e92 at the trade value he was getting, and I was sorely tempted. But the potential running costs put a dent in my enthusiasm...
Can you expand on the SMG point at all? Did the cars have the software update?
Not sure show much more it would cost relative to a notably older E46 TBH but I suspect a lot more 46 than 92 M3s will have seen hard use......Can you expand on the SMG point at all? Did the cars have the software update?
My experience of SMG has been poor changes, either slow or clunky, changing the settings just meant it went from one to the other! This has been while instructing on track - no road use. I couldn't tell you about the software but they were mostly owned by keen enthusiasts so I would have thought at least some of them would be up to date??
MSV used to run 92s as school cars at Oulton when I worked there and they were excellent. Too heavy for regular track use really but still really well balanced and fun to drive and you could play tunes on the box.
And just so I don't look like I'm just biased towards new kit I should say that if you were looking for a pure trackday M3 I'd be suggesting a manual 36 or maybe 46.
FWIW said:
I did one session in a csl at Bedford and thought it was brilliant. Took a little bit of getting used to though. Horses for courses?
Maybe I've just been unlucky with bad ones but they were all really bad and all the 92s I've been in have been the opposite. To be fair the owners were less disappointed in them than I was but they did generally acknowledge that they were no better than a manual and in many ways were somewhat worse and many of them had not been in the next generation of cars with flappy paddle that really works.Regarding the Scirocco option I'd place the box as part way between the 46 and 92 in terms of how they feel on track but that's based on VW Cup Sciroccos with DSG in, I don't know how modded they are compared to standard stuff.
JQ said:
I have no experience of either, but a Scirocco would not be top of my list of trackday car. How about a Toyota GT86 - light, nimble and rear wheel drive?
Interesting. I wasn't even aware that these could be bought with a funky autobox. Do you have any experience you can share?ETA - Not so sure about the "light" bit. There's not much between the Scirocco and GT86.
C70R said:
Cheers both - helpful input. I must admit to being a bit underwhelmed by the DSG on Mk5 Golf GTi that I once drove, so I'd need to have a play with a remapped one at some point.
FWIW, the car will probably only be used once or twice a week (public transport takes the strain), so no need to worry too much about the practicalities/costs of a daily driver.
The MK5 would have had an early DSG box. I've driven a 6 speed in a 2013 TT and a 2017 S3 with the 7 speed and they were both lovely to use. Although I havent had the chance to drive it since, the S3 has now been mapped, it's owner is chuffed with it. FWIW, the car will probably only be used once or twice a week (public transport takes the strain), so no need to worry too much about the practicalities/costs of a daily driver.
The DCT box in the BMWs are the only other boxes I'd look at for continued track use, but as mentioned running costs increase with a BMW and long term there's no way to service a DCT box, the DSG boxes have a service schedule.
CaptainMorgan said:
C70R said:
Cheers both - helpful input. I must admit to being a bit underwhelmed by the DSG on Mk5 Golf GTi that I once drove, so I'd need to have a play with a remapped one at some point.
FWIW, the car will probably only be used once or twice a week (public transport takes the strain), so no need to worry too much about the practicalities/costs of a daily driver.
The MK5 would have had an early DSG box. I've driven a 6 speed in a 2013 TT and a 2017 S3 with the 7 speed and they were both lovely to use. Although I havent had the chance to drive it since, the S3 has now been mapped, it's owner is chuffed with it. FWIW, the car will probably only be used once or twice a week (public transport takes the strain), so no need to worry too much about the practicalities/costs of a daily driver.
The DCT box in the BMWs are the only other boxes I'd look at for continued track use, but as mentioned running costs increase with a BMW and long term there's no way to service a DCT box, the DSG boxes have a service schedule.
The E92 is definitely out of scope, sadly. At any rate, at 1.7T it's a bit lardier than I'd ideally like for driving on track.
Rob_F said:
I test drove a BRZ auto some time ago, i thought it was surprisingly good. Not miles away from my DSG Golf R really.
Rob
I was about to say "really?" until I noticed that you said "my DSG Golf". That is high praise indeed.Rob
However, most of the reviews I've found seem to suggest that the GT86's lack of torque is even further exacerbated by the autobox, so that's likely to be a killer for me. In an ideal world, ~200bhp/tonne (and plenty of torque) is where fun starts to happen.
CLK55 coupe.
But you have obviously made up your mind about getting the E46 M3 already, you just wanted validation from internet strangers
FWIW I test drove an auto GT86 when it first came out; nice enough drive but manual would be my first choice. Also forget about carrying passengers as the rear legroom is pitiful.
But you have obviously made up your mind about getting the E46 M3 already, you just wanted validation from internet strangers
FWIW I test drove an auto GT86 when it first came out; nice enough drive but manual would be my first choice. Also forget about carrying passengers as the rear legroom is pitiful.
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