Preparing a BMW 330ci for its first track day
Discussion
daveco said:
Was this recently? I only ask because it appears that EBC pads have improved markedly over the last couple of years based on online reviews.
I had a set crumble on the rears 2 years ago. Never ever again. I now use cheap and cheerful Pagids on the rear as on my car the rears do very little. I mention this as the cheap pads are fine and last several trackdays but a set of EBCs crumbled........I am sorry to sound like I am harping on, but they REALLY are not fit for track use to the point of danger.
They work fine while you are finding your feet, then 1/2 way through the day you WILL get caught up in a few tussles following someone well matched to you & you start to learn the lines and lean on them a bit heavier, then you think they are lasting well & you forget to check the after 1 stint, then another , then you extend your time on track a bit as you are having so much fun & all the time you put more & more heat into them & then all of a sudden in one stint they go from 1/2 a pad left to backing plates only & you have no brakes at the end of a straight.
BANG!
If you are lucky it is just the end of the day & you are wondering how you can drive home.
They work fine while you are finding your feet, then 1/2 way through the day you WILL get caught up in a few tussles following someone well matched to you & you start to learn the lines and lean on them a bit heavier, then you think they are lasting well & you forget to check the after 1 stint, then another , then you extend your time on track a bit as you are having so much fun & all the time you put more & more heat into them & then all of a sudden in one stint they go from 1/2 a pad left to backing plates only & you have no brakes at the end of a straight.
BANG!
If you are lucky it is just the end of the day & you are wondering how you can drive home.
Lots of funny chat about brake pads, and lots of people seem to think they need to spend £200 or have the same compound as Lewis Hamilton to be safe on a trackday. It's simply not true...
In fact, doing this can often make the car dangerous to use from cold on the road.
I've been using OEM spec Brembo kit on my 206 GTi track car, which have covered a fair few road miles and two trackdays of heavy use and still have >50% of life left on them. They have never exploded or suddenly faded to the point of being dangerous, and I've never died or crashed as a result. After 3 hard laps of Bedford GT (a fairly long track) I could feel the pedal going a bit soft, so I slowed and came into the pits to cool and made sure I didn't do more than 3 hard laps in a row for the rest of the day.
In fact, doing this can often make the car dangerous to use from cold on the road.
I've been using OEM spec Brembo kit on my 206 GTi track car, which have covered a fair few road miles and two trackdays of heavy use and still have >50% of life left on them. They have never exploded or suddenly faded to the point of being dangerous, and I've never died or crashed as a result. After 3 hard laps of Bedford GT (a fairly long track) I could feel the pedal going a bit soft, so I slowed and came into the pits to cool and made sure I didn't do more than 3 hard laps in a row for the rest of the day.
And I ABSOLUTELY get that and applaud you for it and I am not being sarcastic I promise. Aside of that, what you describe is actually the fluid boiling, which is ENTIRELY different.
The point I am making it that the BM is lots heavier, takes MUCH more energy out of the brakes in stopping & EBC are sh!t if you want to/decide to/get distracted & stay out longer.
People buy EBC & forget to check them because they think they are the dogs' on track so they don't check them......... They aren't! They fall apart after a handful of laps of Cadwell/similar heavy braking zones & send you into the armco.
On top of that they don't need warming up "on the road" as they "grip" better from cold anyway, they aren't E90 registered because they are too good & while the car with them can stop well, the car behind can't!
The point I am making it that the BM is lots heavier, takes MUCH more energy out of the brakes in stopping & EBC are sh!t if you want to/decide to/get distracted & stay out longer.
People buy EBC & forget to check them because they think they are the dogs' on track so they don't check them......... They aren't! They fall apart after a handful of laps of Cadwell/similar heavy braking zones & send you into the armco.
On top of that they don't need warming up "on the road" as they "grip" better from cold anyway, they aren't E90 registered because they are too good & while the car with them can stop well, the car behind can't!
Edited by E-bmw on Wednesday 4th July 15:56
C70R][... said:
people seem to think they need to spend £200 [...]
That's more or less what they cost nowadays isn't it? I'm about to replace a set on a 2.8 Z3 and even the average PAGID or Ferodo type gear seems to be going for around £160 for a full set. Decent Brembo or EBC type things pushing 200. vsonix said:
C70R][... said:
people seem to think they need to spend £200 [...]
That's more or less what they cost nowadays isn't it? I'm about to replace a set on a 2.8 Z3 and even the average PAGID or Ferodo type gear seems to be going for around £160 for a full set. Decent Brembo or EBC type things pushing 200. E-bmw said:
And I ABSOLUTELY get that and applaud you for it and I am not being sarcastic I promise. Aside of that, what you describe is actually the fluid boiling, which is ENTIRELY different.
The point I am making it that the BM is lots heavier, takes MUCH more energy out of the brakes in stopping & EBC are sh!t if you want to/decide to/get distracted & stay out longer.
People buy EBC & forget to check them because they think they are the dogs' on track so they don't check them......... They aren't! They fall apart after a handful of laps of Cadwell/similar heavy braking zones & send you into the armco.
On top of that they don't need warming up "on the road" as they "grip" better from cold anyway, they aren't E90 registered because they are too good & while the car with them can stop well, the car behind can't!
Two things:The point I am making it that the BM is lots heavier, takes MUCH more energy out of the brakes in stopping & EBC are sh!t if you want to/decide to/get distracted & stay out longer.
People buy EBC & forget to check them because they think they are the dogs' on track so they don't check them......... They aren't! They fall apart after a handful of laps of Cadwell/similar heavy braking zones & send you into the armco.
On top of that they don't need warming up "on the road" as they "grip" better from cold anyway, they aren't E90 registered because they are too good & while the car with them can stop well, the car behind can't!
Edited by E-bmw on Wednesday 4th July 15:56
1. I know the difference between fluid boiling and pads overheating. Perhaps I haven't described it well, but it's pads not fluid that are the limiting factor in my current setup.
2. On the "better for the road" thing, that's utter nonsense. Not only from firsthand experience, but also from numerous reports of people on here saying that these fancy, expensive pads don't grip as well from cold. I can't wait for you to show me the E90 legislation that specifies a minimum stopping distance.
Of course an OE pad will be cooked in 3 hot laps at Bedford. And if you're happy to live with that that's fair enough, but it kind of defeats the object of a track day. On the other hand for a first track day it's possible that those limitations might not be that bad but then again new track drivers tend to brake too much and for too long which will exacerbate the problem. The only pad I have found that would improve on track longevity while being roadable is the cheapo PFC (Z rated) which happens to be available for the E46 330i for the front.
nickfrog said:
Of course an OE pad will be cooked in 3 hot laps at Bedford. And if you're happy to live with that that's fair enough, but it kind of defeats the object of a track day. On the other hand for a first track day it's possible that those limitations might not be that bad but then again new track drivers tend to brake too much and for too long which will exacerbate the problem. The only pad I have found that would improve on track longevity while being roadable is the cheapo PFC (Z rated) which happens to be available for the E46 330i for the front.
Regarding the bolded bit, I'd challenge that strongly.I go to trackdays to have a good time, and to enjoy driving my track car. On the day I described at Bedford I managed over 30 laps in 3/4-lap stints, allowing the brakes to cool in-between.
If that's your definition of "defeating the object", then I clearly don't understand trackdays.
C70R said:
If that's your definition of "defeating the object", then I clearly don't understand trackdays.
Or more prosaically you and I look for different things on a track day.Doing 1 warm up lap and 1 cooling lap as part of a 3/4 lap stint is not my idea of fun but I have no issues with anyone doing that actually.
The ability to put together 8 laps or so without worrying about brake temp warrants the extra expense in proper pads for the job for me but I accept we all have different requirements.
nickfrog said:
C70R said:
If that's your definition of "defeating the object", then I clearly don't understand trackdays.
Or more prosaically you and I look for different things on a track day.Doing 1 warm up lap and 1 cooling lap as part of a 3/4 lap stint is not my idea of fun but I have no issues with anyone doing that actually.
The ability to put together 8 laps or so without worrying about brake temp warrants the extra expense in proper pads for the job for me but I accept we all have different requirements.
Always worth bearing that in mind, particularly when people are giving advice to newbies...
C70R said:
Two things:
1. I know the difference between fluid boiling and pads overheating. Perhaps I haven't described it well, but it's pads not fluid that are the limiting factor in my current setup.
2. On the "better for the road" thing, that's utter nonsense. Not only from firsthand experience, but also from numerous reports of people on here saying that these fancy, expensive pads don't grip as well from cold. I can't wait for you to show me the E90 legislation that specifies a minimum stopping distance.
1. Ok, well what you described is EXACTLY fluid boiling, so try again.1. I know the difference between fluid boiling and pads overheating. Perhaps I haven't described it well, but it's pads not fluid that are the limiting factor in my current setup.
2. On the "better for the road" thing, that's utter nonsense. Not only from firsthand experience, but also from numerous reports of people on here saying that these fancy, expensive pads don't grip as well from cold. I can't wait for you to show me the E90 legislation that specifies a minimum stopping distance.
2. When did I use the phrase "better for the road"?
I have use Pagid RS29, DS Uno, DS1.11 all of which are, as you put it "fancy, expensive pads", all of which DID stop well from cold, and below is a link to a direct comparison of 2 of those WRT DS2500 which is a road rated pad & have a look at the bottom end of the temperature curve & see if you can still say the same.
https://www.ferodoracing.com/products/car-racing/r...
C70R said:
The beauty of trackdays are that they are for completely mixed ability and needs, and I had a great time on that day.
Always worth bearing that in mind, particularly when people are giving advice to newbies...
Agreed and I would always suggest to newbies that they go over equipped rather than under equipped on the brakes front. One less thing to worry about.Always worth bearing that in mind, particularly when people are giving advice to newbies...
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