Preparing a BMW 330ci for its first track day

Preparing a BMW 330ci for its first track day

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iguana

7,025 posts

259 months

Tuesday 10th July 2018
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29s great pads, but as with others of their ilk, don't really like being on a daily & winter used etc.

C&C

3,277 posts

220 months

Wednesday 11th July 2018
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E-bmw said:
nickfrog said:
CandC said:
As far as pads, I've now settled on Pagid RS29 - they are expensive, but last really well, and they are also very kind to the disks, so are good overall value for money IMHO. They also work well from cold on the road - only downside is they can squeak a bit sometimes (not something that bothers me).

.
Very interested in your experience. Is that on a mainly track dedicated car or a daily driver that also sees track action? I am very tempted to run RS29 on a trackable daily but does that make sense ?
I know the question was not directed at me so sorry for interrupting but when I used them the car was a tracked daily & they are quite simply excellent if slightly squealy when braking softly on the road.


Apart from that they were simply excellent all year round.
As E-bmw says, they seem good both on the road and excellent on track.
Funny thing on the road is they do sometimes squeal, and sometimes they don't. I haven't worked out a pattern in terms of conditions/temperature etc.. and it's not down to whether it's wet or not, as I tend to use it mostly in the dry. Thinking about this, I can't really comment on the performance in the wet apart from the fact they seem to work well - weak link in the traction train here for me is the tyres as they lose grip long before the pads become an issue (Toyo 888R semi slicks).

My car isn't a daily driver - more a weekend car (Noble M400), but I use it most on the road with maybe a couple of track days a year. Couldn't be happier with the RS29 pads, in fact I'll be looking to put them on the R32 Skyline when those next need changing.





daveco

Original Poster:

4,122 posts

206 months

Thursday 12th July 2018
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Right, the new discs and brake pads have been fitted.

Re the bedding in process, any advice? I've been told to brake hard from 50mph or so down to about 5mph about twenty times in a row - is this correct?

As previously mentioned they are Ferodo DS1.11s and normal grooved mtec discs.

Actually found some info on their site
"The aim is to bring the pads to full race temperatures, but slowly (too quick bedding results in glazing). This is done by a series of laps where full speeds may be attained but lighter braking pressures are used (i.e. the driver applies the brakes earlier). It is important that the pads are allowed to cool after the bedding process before racing. Ideally the pads will arrive at temperatures in excess of 500°C during the bedding. Pads smoking during the cool-down is not a cause for concern. Specifically for DS1.11 and DSUNO temperatures should arrive at between 500°C and 700°C (as an indication: green and orange thermal paints applied to discs to turn white completely).
Perform at least 15 trial brake applications, initially with reduced pressures (50% of the normal that might be used for that same brake application were it to occur under race conditions) building up to full decelerations after the 15 applications. To shorten the procedure applications can be made along the straights as well as at corners.
On completion of the trial applications, return to the pit lane. Inspect the surface of the brake pads from the two wheels that have been working the hardest. There should be evidence of contact over the full pad area, but without glazing. The pads are now ready to race. Whilst it is recommended that pads are inspected after bedding, if time does not allow this and paragraph 1 has been carried out appropriately, so long as a short period of time has elapsed to allow the brake system to cool (ideally to below 100°C - this might take in excess of five minutes), the pads will be ready to race."

So it appears that some gentle braking (50%) from relatively high speed about 15 times, then building up to full braking after the 15 gentle attempts if I read that correctly?


Edited by daveco on Thursday 12th July 10:53

nickfrog

20,871 posts

216 months

Thursday 12th July 2018
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My bed in process is normally late at night on a dual carriage away and is x8 70 to 20 (where safe to do so) without triggering the ABS and yes using probably 2/3rds of braking power. I try and quickly go back up to 70mph and leave it there for 10 seconds or so before the next application. It has worked for me on different pads but I can't guarantee it will on your pads so maybe follow the manufacturer's instructions. I would hate to do the bedding in on the track day itself- you'll probably get kicked out lol. If doing it on the road make sure there is NO ONE around FFS !

330ti

124 posts

74 months

Thursday 12th July 2018
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This is a weekend car so I have looked into changing the diff to a 3.64 ratio but they're expensive and I think the car idles at over 2k rpm? And someone online has gone to the trouble of weighing everything they've taken out of the car. The spare tyre, tools, boot floor all come to about 25kg which I doubt would be noticed on track but opinions on this would be good to hear as that is one aspect of the car that I would like to improve on (its weight).


Ok you need to lose more then 25kg. Pull out everything behind the front seats. Change the slippery, heavy leather front seats for buckets and your 150-200kg lighter. You will notice this. Ditch long manual diff for 3.38:1 diff out of 330 auto, strait swop. It will feel much more track friendly now and more fun on road too.

dhutch

14,198 posts

196 months

Thursday 12th July 2018
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330ti said:
Ok you need to lose more then 25kg. Pull out everything behind the front seats. Change the slippery, heavy leather front seats for buckets and your 150-200kg lighter. You will notice this. Ditch long manual diff for 3.38:1 diff out of 330 auto, strait swop. It will feel much more track friendly now and more fun on road too.
Need is a strong word. Just do the day, enjoy it, see where it takes you.

Daniel

daveco

Original Poster:

4,122 posts

206 months

Friday 13th July 2018
quotequote all
Thanks for all the extra info, 330ti I had no idea you could fit the auto diff!

I went out to bed the brakes last night.

I did 15 brake applications at about 50% from 45mph to 10mph and then waited a couple of minutes driving at 60-70mph to do some high speed decelerations at 75-90% application. A few observations;


-There was a blueish hue on the brake discs when I pulled over after all this and it appears these brake pads are dusty as hell. The bluish hue disappeared with more driving.
-They squeal like a stuck pig when they begin to get a bit warm
-They don't appear to have a better bite than the OEM pads but unlike the OEM pads they stayed consistent after repeated applications
-They appear to lose heat very quickly. After a few hard stops I took it easy for 5-10 minutes and they didn't have the same bite.


I'm wondering if the goodyear eagle F1s are up to the task, they are great in the corners and have full tread but perhaps their grip isn't in line with the DS1.11s stopping power?

E-bmw

9,101 posts

151 months

Friday 13th July 2018
quotequote all
daveco said:
-There was a blueish hue on the brake discs when I pulled over after all this and it appears these brake pads are dusty as hell. The bluish hue disappeared with more driving.
-They squeal like a stuck pig when they begin to get a bit warm
-They don't appear to have a better bite than the OEM pads but unlike the OEM pads they stayed consistent after repeated applications
-They appear to lose heat very quickly. After a few hard stops I took it easy for 5-10 minutes and they didn't have the same bite.

I'm wondering if the goodyear eagle F1s are up to the task, they are great in the corners and have full tread but perhaps their grip isn't in line with the DS1.11s stopping power?
The blue tint is quite normal as the brake discs get hot & will (as you say) quickly disappear after a couple of "normal" brake applications.
They do squeal & the lighter you brake the more evident it is.
The VERY initial bit is pretty much the same (actually slightly better, but not a lot) as good OE pads, but also as you have found out the BIG advantage is that they quite simply DO NOT fade and with good fresh fluid they last MUCH better on track.
Yes, they are obviously better when warm as per the torque curves I put up and because they are even better when warm you do soon get used to it & notice the difference more when they cool than when they heat up.

Your tyres will be fine for the moment, just keep an eye on pressures on track, they WILL rise dramatically & need to be dropped until they stabilise, then obviously topped up for the home leg of the day.

daveco

Original Poster:

4,122 posts

206 months

Friday 13th July 2018
quotequote all
E-bmw said:
daveco said:
-There was a blueish hue on the brake discs when I pulled over after all this and it appears these brake pads are dusty as hell. The bluish hue disappeared with more driving.
-They squeal like a stuck pig when they begin to get a bit warm
-They don't appear to have a better bite than the OEM pads but unlike the OEM pads they stayed consistent after repeated applications
-They appear to lose heat very quickly. After a few hard stops I took it easy for 5-10 minutes and they didn't have the same bite.

I'm wondering if the goodyear eagle F1s are up to the task, they are great in the corners and have full tread but perhaps their grip isn't in line with the DS1.11s stopping power?
The blue tint is quite normal as the brake discs get hot & will (as you say) quickly disappear after a couple of "normal" brake applications.
They do squeal & the lighter you brake the more evident it is.
The VERY initial bit is pretty much the same (actually slightly better, but not a lot) as good OE pads, but also as you have found out the BIG advantage is that they quite simply DO NOT fade and with good fresh fluid they last MUCH better on track.
Yes, they are obviously better when warm as per the torque curves I put up and because they are even better when warm you do soon get used to it & notice the difference more when they cool than when they heat up.

Your tyres will be fine for the moment, just keep an eye on pressures on track, they WILL rise dramatically & need to be dropped until they stabilise, then obviously topped up for the home leg of the day.
Thanks for the info read


nickfrog

20,871 posts

216 months

Friday 13th July 2018
quotequote all
For braking, road tyres will always be the limiting factor for decelaration but you're after is brake endurance anyway.

Edited by nickfrog on Sunday 15th July 15:23

330ti

124 posts

74 months

Friday 13th July 2018
quotequote all
dhutch said:
330ti said:
Ok you need to lose more then 25kg. Pull out everything behind the front seats. Change the slippery, heavy leather front seats for buckets and your 150-200kg lighter. You will notice this. Ditch long manual diff for 3.38:1 diff out of 330 auto, strait swop. It will feel much more track friendly now and more fun on road too.
Need is a strong word. Just do the day, enjoy it, see where it takes you.

Daniel
Yeah I agree , do a track day first then one thing at a time but if you don't want little French $hitboxes, a.k.a clios, coming past you then you NEED to lose weight and lower gears. Less weight also means less to stop and better round corners.

Kit352

154 posts

69 months

Saturday 14th July 2018
quotequote all
daveco said:
This thread has been an eye-opener!

I have gone for DS1.11s on the front pads and MTEC grooved discs, the latter of which I've heard mixed things about (after they arrived...) but we'll see.


This is a weekend car so I have looked into changing the diff to a 3.64 ratio but they're expensive and I think the car idles at over 2k rpm? And someone online has gone to the trouble of weighing everything they've taken out of the car. The spare tyre, tools, boot floor all come to about 25kg which I doubt would be noticed on track but opinions on this would be good to hear as that is one aspect of the car that I would like to improve on (its weight).

On a separate note;-
I was reading some old EVO magazines and in issue 71 an E46 330ci with the SMG box ran a 1.34 at Bedford Autodrome with the mag saying it would be a 1.33 with the manual box...that means the relatively lardy 330ci is about seven seconds quicker around Bedford than a Mk V Golf GTI, and about a second slower than a 350Z. That doesn't make sense to me considering the 1500+kg weight, long gearing and moderate power advantage.
When i brought my e36 to bedford it was about as stock as you can get and a little worn out in the suspension department as well. I started the day just running it as is and playing with tire pressures and looking over things every 15 minute session. I couldnt really stay out longer because my crap tires were sliding everywhere and my brake feel was changing just enough to tell me i would have problems if i stayed another lap. I felt i had a good handle on the car and what it could do out there so i started dumping weight to see if it could help. I gutted the trunk of the tire, jack, sound deading but left the felt so it looks intact, the carpet, and the rear seat. I just stacked everything in the paddock. Not only was it a fairly large pile of things that came out but remarkably heavy. I didnt weight it but i figured 75kg and i remember checking the weight faqs of these cars and it was about right.
Results? Car sat visably higher in the rear, enough that other racers asked if i raised the rear on purpose. I was also able to stay out and extra lap and push my sessions to 20minutes. I also gained a full 5mph on the back straight immediately. I was barely able to touch 110mph all day until i removed the weight. My first session out saw 115mph and every lap saw the same speed or a little higher.


nickfrog

20,871 posts

216 months

Sunday 15th July 2018
quotequote all
330ti said:
Yeah I agree , do a track day first then one thing at a time but if you don't want little French $hitboxes, a.k.a clios, coming past you then you NEED to lose weight and lower gears. Less weight also means less to stop and better round corners.
Or start with a little French stbox, make it neutral and drop a Megane engine. I have seen several recently. Rather quick and fun.