Where are all the AWD and Type R's?
Discussion
feef said:
The last couple of trackdays I did, the token Scooby on each died part way through the day (different vehicles). Coincidence? Or are they getting fragile when fettled and tuned?
Mine was flawless on every track day I did. I have never seen a Scooby break down on a trackday. One did overheat its brakes at the Nurburgring when I was there last weekend though, lots of smoke.My old celica gt4 was great on track and the 4wd gave a real advantage getting on power early out of the slow hairpin corners (could get on power with the front wheels turned almost full lock and it just pulled you round. But due to weight it would go through brakes and tyres about 4 times faster than my mx5s or mr2s on track so couldn't really justify the running costs even though at least as much fun.
4WD is a generally very expensive way to go fast.
Not just in how much the likes of Scoobys and Evos cost to make big power, but they're also hard on brakes, tyres and fuel.
Did a trackday at Pembrey on Saturday. There were definitely less scoobys and evos than a few years back. Most of them were very fast though (in fact, they were probably the only cars I had to pull over consistently for). But they seemed to spend a lot of time swapping tyres and brakes over.
I literally just rock up in the 7, unload my petrol from the boot and leave some air out of the tyres and it's ready to go for the whole day. There's a lot to be said for lightweight cars on track. They're also a lot more fun, to the point where I just don't bother taking a tin-top to trackdays anyway because I just don't get the same buzz from them.
Not just in how much the likes of Scoobys and Evos cost to make big power, but they're also hard on brakes, tyres and fuel.
Did a trackday at Pembrey on Saturday. There were definitely less scoobys and evos than a few years back. Most of them were very fast though (in fact, they were probably the only cars I had to pull over consistently for). But they seemed to spend a lot of time swapping tyres and brakes over.
I literally just rock up in the 7, unload my petrol from the boot and leave some air out of the tyres and it's ready to go for the whole day. There's a lot to be said for lightweight cars on track. They're also a lot more fun, to the point where I just don't bother taking a tin-top to trackdays anyway because I just don't get the same buzz from them.
upsidedownmark said:
IMHO '4WD' is more a marketing success than a genuine advantage. Sure, it's great on a rally stage. It's necessary offroad. It may even help a bit in the wet, and just maybe on a crappy b-road. But on hot tires on a racetrack you need a massive amount of power before the tractive ability of 2 driven wheels is a problem, especially if it's the rears.
I disagree with that, 4WD is proven on a racetrack, even if you look back to things like the BTCC and DTM in the mid/late nineties you’ll see that even with weight and power parity the 4WD cars were blitzing the opposition. So much so they had to carry more weight to even things out. If you go to the bigger circuits, like Nurburgring, spa, suzuka, silver stone, etc you see loads of high power GTRs and the like
1781cc said:
I disagree with that, 4WD is proven on a racetrack, even if you look back to things like the BTCC and DTM in the mid/late nineties you’ll see that even with weight and power parity the 4WD cars were blitzing the opposition. So much so they had to carry more weight to even things out.
If we exclude the more exotic stuff and stick to UK club/national racing, there's very little 4wd stuff being raced.1781cc said:
If you go to the bigger circuits, like Nurburgring, spa, suzuka, silver stone, etc you see loads of high power GTRs and the like
If you're talking about trackdays at those circuits you'd also see a couple of GT3s for every GTR and numerous other 2wd performance toys as well.You can make 4wd work on a track but it it is very much a niche option that most drivers choose to avoid.
framerateuk said:
4WD is a generally very expensive way to go fast.
Not just in how much the likes of Scoobys and Evos cost to make big power, but they're also hard on brakes, tyres and fuel.
Did a trackday at Pembrey on Saturday. There were definitely less scoobys and evos than a few years back. Most of them were very fast though (in fact, they were probably the only cars I had to pull over consistently for). But they seemed to spend a lot of time swapping tyres and brakes over.
I literally just rock up in the 7, unload my petrol from the boot and leave some air out of the tyres and it's ready to go for the whole day. There's a lot to be said for lightweight cars on track. They're also a lot more fun, to the point where I just don't bother taking a tin-top to trackdays anyway because I just don't get the same buzz from them.
Can’t talk about Scoobs but Evo’s are getting to the age where owners (me included) are stariting to renovate and restore them, if they’re good. There’s actually a lot less on the roads now anyway as a lot of cannibalised for parts, or simply scraped due to poor bodies.Not just in how much the likes of Scoobys and Evos cost to make big power, but they're also hard on brakes, tyres and fuel.
Did a trackday at Pembrey on Saturday. There were definitely less scoobys and evos than a few years back. Most of them were very fast though (in fact, they were probably the only cars I had to pull over consistently for). But they seemed to spend a lot of time swapping tyres and brakes over.
I literally just rock up in the 7, unload my petrol from the boot and leave some air out of the tyres and it's ready to go for the whole day. There's a lot to be said for lightweight cars on track. They're also a lot more fun, to the point where I just don't bother taking a tin-top to trackdays anyway because I just don't get the same buzz from them.
If you follow the Time Attack/sprint series, then you’ll see that 4WD is alive, strong and in most cases dominating. Some of these cars are producing 1000hp, having all four tyres being able to deploy that helps massively.
jassihayre said:
Started doing trackdays a couple of years ago and after nearly a dozen days i've noticed that there aren't many all wheel / four wheel drive cars such as scooby's, evo's, s3's, s4's celica's or many Honda type r's on most trackdays. Would have thought the traction benefits of the all wheel drives and screaming engines of the Type r's would make them popular choices but doesn't appear so.
Do the tracks you drive on have any Macdonald’s car parks close by?Just a thought.
1781cc said:
I disagree with that, 4WD is proven on a racetrack, even if you look back to things like the BTCC and DTM in the mid/late nineties you’ll see that even with weight and power parity the 4WD cars were blitzing the opposition. So much so they had to carry more weight to even things out.
If you go to the bigger circuits, like Nurburgring, spa, suzuka, silver stone, etc you see loads of high power GTRs and the like
You have a point, however, I did specifically note tractive ability. From recollection (I was watching BTCC in those days), the main advantages of the audis were: 1) Launch. 2) they didn't destroy the super-soft slick tyres as fast as the predominantly front wheel drive competition. I also seem to recall the BMW's carrying more ballast than the 155's etc. Neither are really quite so relevant for a track day..If you go to the bigger circuits, like Nurburgring, spa, suzuka, silver stone, etc you see loads of high power GTRs and the like
As to the high power GTR's, I suspect that's partly because it's much easier to make very high power GTR's than with many other cars, and yes, I think 600+hp is probably into the territory where it's advantageous to have traction from more than two driven wheels
I guess it's just luck - I've been to snetterton, brands and donny and had massive variety. Lots of Integra's, Clio's and Megane sports (I was thoroughly surprised at the Megane's, never gave them much thought before, but watching them lap with ease and keeping up with much more expensive toys was awesome). New Focus RS's as well.
Coming from a track prepped 996 then a modified Lotus Exige S, I was unsure how the new TT project with its Haldex system would fare and compare! I have to say that even with minor modifications (adjustable suspension and a more aggressive geo setup) I am having more fun on track than in any other car. The 4wd is biased much more to the rear than other Audi’s I’ve driven and the car rotates nicely. The extra traction is great for exiting tight corners. So far I’ve run on the stock potenza SO1 tyres that came with the car and very much looking forward to running some Michelin Cup2’s soon.
I'm usually at a track somewhere in my EP3, usually there is a few various Type R's at most track days I've been on.
Usually quite a big following of Renault Meganes, which go very well so I can see why it's usually a.good choice.
Usually a few MX5's also.
Usually quite a big following of Renault Meganes, which go very well so I can see why it's usually a.good choice.
Usually a few MX5's also.
Edited by FocusNick on Friday 17th August 08:43
V800MJH said:
Just popped in to say RWD>FWD>AWD.
What a stupid thing to say. You have won 1st prize in todays "silly things to say" competition. Your prize is to sit in the corner and think about what you have done.
Perhaps whilst you are sat there, ask yourself why you think that an Evo is somehow worse than a Rover SD1 or if in fact actually the driven wheels are just 1 aspect of a car and there are more important things regarding how good a car is?
Ahbefive said:
What a stupid thing to say.
You have won 1st prize in todays "silly things to say" competition. Your prize is to sit in the corner and think about what you have done.
Perhaps whilst you are sat there, ask yourself why you think that an Evo is somehow worse than a Rover SD1 or if in fact actually the driven wheels are just 1 aspect of a car and there are more important things regarding how good a car is?
I suspect the word contemporary was implied. All else being equal RWD is felt to be best for trackdays. All else is not always equal though...You have won 1st prize in todays "silly things to say" competition. Your prize is to sit in the corner and think about what you have done.
Perhaps whilst you are sat there, ask yourself why you think that an Evo is somehow worse than a Rover SD1 or if in fact actually the driven wheels are just 1 aspect of a car and there are more important things regarding how good a car is?
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