track car/daily... what are the options?

[C70R]

HustleRussell said:

IMO a lot of time and energy wasted in this thread with 'ring times, it's irrelevant, it's all about driver familiarity. You are going to have a variation of whole minutes between the PHer who has done nine laps and the 'ring specialist racing driver on youtube.

Moreover 'ring times are a useless tool for comparing trackday cars anyway, seeing as trackdays aren't competitive and timing is not permitted. Is the car with the fastest 'ring lap the best trackday car? My first trackday and race car would be monstered around the 'ring by one of the faster BMW X5s, does it make the X5 the better trackday car?

Edited by HustleRussell on Tuesday 4th December 10:27

I sort of agree, but also sort of disagree.
The 'Ring is a poor, but arbitrary benchmark for on-track performance. Nothing more or less.

While quite a lot of trackdayers simply want to go out and have fun (like me), there are quite a few for whom the pastime is a race against oneself. Knowing that a car has a high capability ceiling can offer the average trackdayer a lot of potential for improvement, and the opportunity to set high goals. This can be very motivating, and potentially retain interest over a prolonged period.
On the other side of the coin, buying a car which is easy to master, and which has a low threshold of skill required to drive quickly, could potentially be demotivating for some.

Just my $0.02.

[HustleRussell]

I would argue that those who would describe a car as ‘easy to master’, never mastered anything. I know I haven’t.

Stirling Moss said it took him five years of racing to learn how to brake properly. By that measure, or any other you care to apply, he’s at least twice the driver I am...

Edited by HustleRussell on Tuesday 4th December 12:25

[C70R]

HustleRussell said:

I would argue that those who would describe a car as ‘easy to master’, never mastered anything. I know I haven’t.

Stirling Moss said it took him five years of racing to learn how to brake properly. By that measure, or any other you care to apply, he’s at least twice the driver I am...

Try not to take things so literally. Everything is relative.

For example, I jumped into an ex-gf's Mx5 and was drifting around roundabouts (private road etc.) within 15min of turning the key, and I'm a fairly average driver. Whereas I've never reached 'mastery' in many other cars I've owned for long periods.

(NB: Before you go off on another literal interpretation, I'm well aware that drifting around a roundabout doesn't equate to 'mastery'. It's merely an example of how relatively accessible and safe the performance is in that car.)

[CABC]

C70R said:

HustleRussell said:

I would argue that those who would describe a car as ‘easy to master’, never mastered anything. I know I haven’t.

Stirling Moss said it took him five years of racing to learn how to brake properly. By that measure, or any other you care to apply, he’s at least twice the driver I am...

Try not to take things so literally. Everything is relative.

For example, I jumped into an ex-gf's Mx5 and was drifting around roundabouts (private road etc.) within 15min of turning the key, and I'm a fairly average driver. Whereas I've never reached 'mastery' in many other cars I've owned for long periods.

(NB: Before you go off on another literal interpretation, I'm well aware that drifting around a roundabout doesn't equate to 'mastery'. It's merely an example of how relatively accessible and safe the performance is in that car.)

the preoccupation with Ring times is about getting the fastest car and ignoring driver skill. people would be better off (well, faster drivers) thrashing an old MX5 or Clio on track for a couple of years. they'd then post some OK times in a properly fast car. Jump straight in to a car with lots of power & esc and it's easy to learn very little.
It seems self evident to me as i look at others on track, supported by empirical evidence of PalmerSport times.

[Ahbefive]

C70R said:

Not sure I can see a rollcage in there... In the comments the owner mentions tyres and coilovers, but nothing else. The fact that it isn't even sporting a bucket seat should lead to the conclusion that it's probably not a track special. A very impressive time indeed, up there with some serious metal.

If you read the comments it does have a half cage and likely other mods. Still a great time.

[C70R]

CABC said:

the preoccupation with Ring times is about getting the fastest car and ignoring driver skill. people would be better off (well, faster drivers) thrashing an old MX5 or Clio on track for a couple of years. they'd then post some OK times in a properly fast car. Jump straight in to a car with lots of power & esc and it's easy to learn very little.

I don't agree that it's so black and white as you say. I think there's plenty of grey area, particularly with a lot of the cars we've discussed - where a driver could get plenty of reward early on, but have a decent ceiling to aim towards.

[iguana]

C70R said:

That's a seriously impressive time in a seriously well-prepped car. Even though he hasn't gone for 'power' mods, that chassis has had a lot of work.

Well its not really which is why I find it so impressive, its not running £5k coilovers like many quick ring cars do & get great tf times, yes I see he's fiddled with subframes etc but this is hobby stiff of the stuff you'd find on most dedicated trackday spods, I got pipped on a similar spec car this yr it was sub £3k its not the £10-15k MX race cars sort of spec.

One of the big things ref a mk3 like that is the big 245 17 tyre sizes on a 9j he can run that's a lot more grip than the little 195/15s on a 6 or maybe 7j maybe that mk 1s & 2s mainly run plus he's got it really light which obviously helps a lot.

Its is mental loud tho in the flesh.

[C70R]

iguana said:

C70R said:

That's a seriously impressive time in a seriously well-prepped car. Even though he hasn't gone for 'power' mods, that chassis has had a lot of work.

Well its not really which is why I find it so impressive, its not running £5k coilovers like many quick ring cars do & get great tf times, yes I see he's fiddled with subframes etc but this is hobby stiff of the stuff you'd find on most dedicated trackday spods, I got pipped on a similar spec car this yr it was sub £3k its not the £10-15k MX race cars sort of spec.

One of the big things ref a mk3 like that is the big 245 17 tyre sizes on a 9j he can run that's a lot more grip than the little 195/15s on a 6 or maybe 7j maybe that mk 1s & 2s mainly run plus he's got it really light which obviously helps a lot.

Its is mental loud tho in the flesh.

Rather than thinking about the amount of money he's spent on components as "well-prepped", my view was focused more on the amount of time and effort that has clearly gone into refining the build. The difference between his £800 and £5k coilovers is irrelevant if they haven't been iteratively adjusted/set-up over a long period of time, as his clearly have.
The fact that he knows exactly the bhp sacrifice of his exhaust bung suggests that it has been built with a meticulous attention to detail, rather than a bunch of expensive components thrown together. That's a "seriously well-prepped" car.

Keen to know where your highly-modded mk3 MX5 was coming from at £3k. Given that completely stock cars are seldom that cheap unless mega miles, you were onto a bargain.

[C70R]

Ahbefive said:

C70R said:

Sf_Manta said:

330i Manual Touring ... track weapon ... 9.42 BTG

I think we're stretching the definition of "track weapon" a little bit here.
The Megane R26 could comfortably knock 1min off that time with moderate commitment/talent.

Indeed I have done a 9min flat lap in my R26 and I don't know the track that well. It took some commitment.

https://youtu.be/qtYAAWTC6Ok

I'm sure if anyone watches it I will get slated for my driving and the uncouth language from my passenger but oh well....

Edited by Ahbefive on Thursday 29th November 18:55

Just went back and watched your lap.
Decent commitment and pace in parts, but your hand control and positioning is very erratic/inconsistent (shuffling the wheel, one-handed, dwelling on the gearstick), which may bite you on the backside if the car behaves unexpectedly. For still being in single-digit laps it's a decent show, and as you build up your laps things like knowing which gear to be in (to avoid shifting up then immediately back down) will come.

[iguana]

C70R said:

Keen to know where your highly-modded mk3 MX5 was coming from at £3k. Given that completely stock cars are seldom that cheap unless mega miles, you were onto a bargain.

Was just on ebay, it wasn't that long ago but I can't seem to find it on my past watched items on the bay, was low miles, had all the bits ok coiles the power mods etc, was silver & birminghamy way i seem to recall so someone else may have spotted it, was a bit gutted to have missed it but I think in honesty id have been a tad frustrated with the lack of power, so as I missed it I promptly bought a boosted mx, ha my 4th one now, but the fastest & best one yet, however excluding the dreamers who will never sell, often track cars with serious dosh put in sell for less than standard cars, or they have to strip & take to standard or scrap & sell off the bits.

Try this link for an example, yes its not an mx5 but something else I was considering, but with now 5 flipping road & track cars is probably enough for any mildly sane person! so I didn't go for it, was very tempted tho! - but proper spec suspension, its over £4k of you go on the Nitron site, decent seats that are with the mounts in the £2k area, plus the tyres, bushes etc etc labour to do etc that's easy 7k put in that car & it was on ebay a couple of times.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BMW-E85-Z4-3-0-Track-Ca...



Of my fleet at the mo, 2 trackers were at standard car money, one significantly less, & one was a tad more but that had about a 10k spend & was prob a grand to 1500 more than a stock one. 2 of those were just on PH & an ebay adverts, the others were ok being right place right time deals.

Edited by iguana on Wednesday 5th December 23:20