Simplest Track Day Car £3k Non MX5
Discussion
loggyboy said:
Don't discount FWD because you think they will be less fun. But you can discount RWD for drifting as fun on a trackday as you will be black flagged and the fun will be over. So you have to look at fun in reference to driver satisfaction. Your budget will reign you in from having being satisfied by setting blistering lap times and blowing away other drivers.
So look at what will be satisfying going fast for less money - for me thats the best feeling. Walking away having hounded someone in a 'faster' car.
I've had a fair few people in these faster cars come up to me asking what ive done to the engine in my 182 - and when they hear the answer 'nothing' the look is a mixture of confusion and disbelief. The reason is - I have track tyres, and 1 set of 4 is cheaper than 2 road tyres for my M3 - I have coilovers, again, they cost less than OE replacement for most popular track cars, the car weighs nothing, so with these 3 things, I (generally) can carry more speed in and around the bends, so the faster car will only be faster for a few hundred yards at the end of a straight. BUT without a doubt the biggest reason is I can carry the knowledge that if take a few mph too much in to a bend and end up in the gravel/armco all I have to do is find another £1k clio, transplant what I can from my wreck on to that and start again. Where as others may have to worry about the 'what if' costs are going to be, so drive at 80-90% even when they push on. Now that latter statement can apply to any cheap car, so you are already on that route, whether by choice or necessity.
And to add to and repeat what others have said promoting the clio - there a the reason why the Clios get recommended by more people, more often, everytime this subject comes up. There will also be multiple Clios at every track day you ever go on. They have a superb chassis, and both the cars and parts are so cheap you can pretty much treat them as throw away.
Ive borrowed Mk5s on trackdays, I've had my M3 on trackdays, BUT - i'm on clio 172/182/197 number 7 now.
For £/smile the Clio (specifically the 1*2's) win hands down.
My frustration with FWD is it's not hard to drive them fast, wet or dry, get your braking done, trail in, power before apex and let the LSD do the work.So look at what will be satisfying going fast for less money - for me thats the best feeling. Walking away having hounded someone in a 'faster' car.
I've had a fair few people in these faster cars come up to me asking what ive done to the engine in my 182 - and when they hear the answer 'nothing' the look is a mixture of confusion and disbelief. The reason is - I have track tyres, and 1 set of 4 is cheaper than 2 road tyres for my M3 - I have coilovers, again, they cost less than OE replacement for most popular track cars, the car weighs nothing, so with these 3 things, I (generally) can carry more speed in and around the bends, so the faster car will only be faster for a few hundred yards at the end of a straight. BUT without a doubt the biggest reason is I can carry the knowledge that if take a few mph too much in to a bend and end up in the gravel/armco all I have to do is find another £1k clio, transplant what I can from my wreck on to that and start again. Where as others may have to worry about the 'what if' costs are going to be, so drive at 80-90% even when they push on. Now that latter statement can apply to any cheap car, so you are already on that route, whether by choice or necessity.
And to add to and repeat what others have said promoting the clio - there a the reason why the Clios get recommended by more people, more often, everytime this subject comes up. There will also be multiple Clios at every track day you ever go on. They have a superb chassis, and both the cars and parts are so cheap you can pretty much treat them as throw away.
Ive borrowed Mk5s on trackdays, I've had my M3 on trackdays, BUT - i'm on clio 172/182/197 number 7 now.
For £/smile the Clio (specifically the 1*2's) win hands down.
Edited by loggyboy on Monday 17th June 12:42
I love the challenge of getting a RWD car neatly round.
Horses for courses really. Want do you want out of a track day? I don't think I've ever chased lap times, or tired to have a "battle" with anyone on track. I'm just there as I enjoy driving fast, I enjoy finding the line, I enjoy being on tracks that I've seen great drivers on (and tracks that they don't get seen on, like Bedford).
Even in the VX, I was happy that I wasn't the fastest out there and would set myself certain rules to protect the car (she was my pride and joy), so I'd brake way too soon, and never red-line it, I'd change almost 500rpm prior to the red line. Finally, if a faster car was behind me, I'd move over asap and lift of, so they could get past me quicker and I could get back to my driving quicker. I'd much rather have someone in front of me than behind me.
So, amongst all that waffle, simple answer is, get what ever you're more comfortable in I guess, be it RWD or FWD, or in my case mid-engine (most of my driving has been in mid-engine cars over the years) and just have fun, you don't have to be a driving God.
I don't think I'd be able to tell anyone what 7/10s or 9/10s is to me.
Even in the VX, I was happy that I wasn't the fastest out there and would set myself certain rules to protect the car (she was my pride and joy), so I'd brake way too soon, and never red-line it, I'd change almost 500rpm prior to the red line. Finally, if a faster car was behind me, I'd move over asap and lift of, so they could get past me quicker and I could get back to my driving quicker. I'd much rather have someone in front of me than behind me.
So, amongst all that waffle, simple answer is, get what ever you're more comfortable in I guess, be it RWD or FWD, or in my case mid-engine (most of my driving has been in mid-engine cars over the years) and just have fun, you don't have to be a driving God.
I don't think I'd be able to tell anyone what 7/10s or 9/10s is to me.
AshVX220 said:
Even in the VX, I was happy that I wasn't the fastest out there and would set myself certain rules to protect the car (she was my pride and joy), so I'd brake way too soon, and never red-line it, I'd change almost 500rpm prior to the red line. Finally, if a faster car was behind me, I'd move over asap and lift of, so they could get past me quicker and I could get back to my driving quicker. I'd much rather have someone in front of me than behind me.
perfectly valid view and approach to take.i used to track my Elise at 9-10/10ths (that's my ability not necessarily the car's!), but then switched to an MX5 where i can go over 10ths trying to find the right line.
also, whilst you can't drift on a track day, correcting oversteer is fine
once you've started track days 3k is just the beginning. i'd still choose an MX5, manage the rust and mod away.
sub-tonne 200hp is sweet ime.
weight is very important too, for maximising fun and minimising costs. even the Palmer prepped M3s don't do it for me.
I ran a Proton Satria GTI for 2 years as a track car. Went halves with a mate bought the car for £600 already stripped out, it was great, cost nothing to run I think we only did oil change, tyres and breaks. It was massive fun and handled really well, would keep up with much more expensive stuff.
I always think the less you spend the more fun you'll have as your just not worried if it goes pop or you stuff it. I moved on to a tiger kit car and I never had anywhere near as much fun than in the Proton(became known as the Scroton! lol).
I always think the less you spend the more fun you'll have as your just not worried if it goes pop or you stuff it. I moved on to a tiger kit car and I never had anywhere near as much fun than in the Proton(became known as the Scroton! lol).
loggyboy said:
Don't discount FWD because you think they will be less fun. But you can discount RWD for drifting as fun on a trackday as you will be black flagged and the fun will be over.
It depends on the trackday, how busy it is and whether you can keep it on the black stuff:
I spend most of my time going forward on track days, but sideways definitely has its place!
For the budget, just concentrate on reliability. Nothing else matters to start off with, as you'll be having fun in whatever you take. Pick your track day wisely though. No point in taking a Clio 182 to a trackday full of Caterhams and supercars. You'll spend most of your time looking in your mirrors, so you can pull over to let them past.
Over the years I've tracked MR2 Mark 1s, Mark 2 Turbos, Mark 1.5 Turbos ;-) , Subarus, Caterhams other kit cars and a Skyline. I had the most fun with the Mark 1 MR2. Handling wasn't bad. the mid engine made it planted but gave you some good experience of how to handle the car on the edge - especially when you fetch it back in line! - it wasn't the fastest, but that meant it didn't hammer brakes and tyres. There was no value in it, so especially on wet days I could keep up with much faster machinery because they would tend to take it carefully.
Rust issues aside, don't discount the MX5 as a good, solid starter.
AmosMoses said:
I'd vote a Clio 197, it is heavier than the 1*2s but i find the chassis a little more sophisticated. Factory brembos are also an added bonus. I have one a completely stock F1 model and I've done Oulton,Cadwell,Silverstone, Donington and Curborough and i love it.
Only issue I found with my 197 is the weight discounts the power, and cost of tyres (17s over 15s), brakes (3x the cost of decent 182 items), and then the chief reason the chassis is better (swivel arm hubs/struts) are a pain and expensive to replace. So its at least twice as much for running costs over a 182, for (IME) no improvement in laptime. You also loose hydraulic PS, so the car feels soft and too easy.sanguinary said:
For the budget, just concentrate on reliability. Nothing else matters to start off with, as you'll be having fun in whatever you take. Pick your track day wisely though. No point in taking a Clio 182 to a trackday full of Caterhams and supercars. You'll spend most of your time looking in your mirrors, so you can pull over to let them past.
I thought that would happen round Silverstone GP - but wasnt the case at all for the exact reasons i mentioned above. This was one of the venues I got questioned on power (Z4M coupe driver).https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pK68hPpfCH8
This lap time is only 10 secs (over 2min40 lap so only 6%) slower than a the FK2 Civics FWD lap record by Matt Neal.
I have a MX-5 now for track days and previously I had a Mk6 Fiesta ST 150 which I stripped out for track days, I have to say I do miss the Fiesta, they are cheap to buy, mine was completely reliable, I used to drive it to the track, kick its ass all day then drive home with no issues, only need some basic modifications such as power steering relocation and swap from standard 17 inch wheels to 15's and you have a great fun car.
That or a Clio 182
That or a Clio 182
Hi everyone,
Thank you for taking the time to reply - much appreciated.
Things I have learnt:
1) Budget for brake upgrades - standard road brakes are unlikely to cope
2) Factor in a spare set of wheels and better rubber (if possible)
3) Choose your track day wisely - maybe better to start out with one that is for novices etc
With regards to the car itself, I wonder whether RWD is a compromise too far given the budget - for the money a better FWD car can be had.
My top choices so far (not in order) are:
Clio 172 or 182
R50 Mini Cooper
Fiesta Zetec S
Saxo VTR
Celica 190
As I said in an earlier post, if anyone is handy with a spanner e.g. fitting coilovers then I would be willing to pay for their time and travel to them if I could be taken through doing such work. It won't until a bit later in the year until I buy as I'm waiting for a bit more clarity on my job situation (should be fine fingers crossed).
Alternatively, if anyone on the south coast wants a free pair of novice hands to help with preparing a track car then give me a shout - I'm Southampton based.
Once again many thanks,
Matt
Thank you for taking the time to reply - much appreciated.
Things I have learnt:
1) Budget for brake upgrades - standard road brakes are unlikely to cope
2) Factor in a spare set of wheels and better rubber (if possible)
3) Choose your track day wisely - maybe better to start out with one that is for novices etc
With regards to the car itself, I wonder whether RWD is a compromise too far given the budget - for the money a better FWD car can be had.
My top choices so far (not in order) are:
Clio 172 or 182
R50 Mini Cooper
Fiesta Zetec S
Saxo VTR
Celica 190
As I said in an earlier post, if anyone is handy with a spanner e.g. fitting coilovers then I would be willing to pay for their time and travel to them if I could be taken through doing such work. It won't until a bit later in the year until I buy as I'm waiting for a bit more clarity on my job situation (should be fine fingers crossed).
Alternatively, if anyone on the south coast wants a free pair of novice hands to help with preparing a track car then give me a shout - I'm Southampton based.
Once again many thanks,
Matt
Edited by BeirutTaxi on Tuesday 25th June 20:32
BeirutTaxi said:
Hi everyone,
Thank you for taking the time to reply - much appreciated.
Things I have learnt:
1) Budget for brake upgrades - standard road brakes are unlikely to cope
2) Factor in a spare set of wheels and better rubber (if possible)
3) Choose your track day wisely - maybe better to start out with one that is for novices etc
With regards to the car itself, I wonder whether RWD is a compromise too far given the budget - for the money a better FWD car can be had.
My top choices so far (not in order) are:
Clio 172 or 182
R50 Mini Cooper
Fiesta Zetec S
Saxo VTR
Celica 190
As I said in an earlier post, if anyone is handy with a spanner e.g. fitting coilovers then I would be willing to pay for their time and travel to them if I could be taken through doing such work. It won't until a bit later in the year until I buy as I'm waiting for a bit more clarity on my job situation (should be fine fingers crossed).
Alternatively, if anyone on the south coast wants a free pair of novice hands to help with preparing a track car then give me a shout - I'm Southampton based.
Once again many thanks,
Matt
E36 328 still in budget....Thank you for taking the time to reply - much appreciated.
Things I have learnt:
1) Budget for brake upgrades - standard road brakes are unlikely to cope
2) Factor in a spare set of wheels and better rubber (if possible)
3) Choose your track day wisely - maybe better to start out with one that is for novices etc
With regards to the car itself, I wonder whether RWD is a compromise too far given the budget - for the money a better FWD car can be had.
My top choices so far (not in order) are:
Clio 172 or 182
R50 Mini Cooper
Fiesta Zetec S
Saxo VTR
Celica 190
As I said in an earlier post, if anyone is handy with a spanner e.g. fitting coilovers then I would be willing to pay for their time and travel to them if I could be taken through doing such work. It won't until a bit later in the year until I buy as I'm waiting for a bit more clarity on my job situation (should be fine fingers crossed).
Alternatively, if anyone on the south coast wants a free pair of novice hands to help with preparing a track car then give me a shout - I'm Southampton based.
Once again many thanks,
Matt
Edited by BeirutTaxi on Tuesday 25th June 20:32
With brands, BC Racing or HSD are pretty reasonable price-wise and performance-wise.
Brakes-wise, you'll be amazed at how far good pads and fluid will get you.
BeirutTaxi said:
Something else to ask BTW: in terms of tyres, discs, pads, brake fluid, engine oil, suspension kits what are the preferred brands? Especially on a budget?
The answers to those questions are many, as some brands work better on certain cars & others have simple well-trodden upgrade paths.Such as Bilstein work well on BMW & not on R53 Mini.
e36 to e46 front brakes simple & cheap.
R53 to R56 front brakes simple & cheap.
Steer clear of EBC anything though as a good start on brakes.
https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Mr2 Mk3 - see my thread. A very easy to work on car. Pick up a s
tter, spend a bit on it and you have a fairly reliable rear wheel drive 2 seater. loads of parts available. Plus if you get into it further down line you can engine swap from a old celica to up the powerBeirutTaxi said:
Something else to ask BTW: in terms of tyres, discs, pads, brake fluid, engine oil, suspension kits what are the preferred brands? Especially on a budget?
i'm southampton based too 
there are a couple of road/track places who'll fit coilovers for you nearby and not rip you off should you decide to have someone do it (remember, it's sensible to get the tracking done after they're installed anyway). suspension kits probably depend on what car you go for, meister-r and bc coilovers do kits for most popular makes. brakes - make sure discs are ok, standard disks are fine on most small cars running near standard power, the pads + fluid will be the better upgrade.
let me know if you need anything, i'm a rubbish spanner tho :P
loggyboy said:
Don't discount FWD because you think they will be less fun. But you can discount RWD for drifting as fun on a trackday as you will be black flagged and the fun will be over. So you have to look at fun in reference to driver satisfaction. Your budget will reign you in from having being satisfied by setting blistering lap times and blowing away other drivers.
So look at what will be satisfying going fast for less money - for me thats the best feeling.
You are being simplistic about RWD there. Rather than Japanese-style drifting, think of the drifting and oversteer of cars in the Goodwood Revival (St Mary's Trophy especially) as being a kind of ultimate aim. So look at what will be satisfying going fast for less money - for me thats the best feeling.
There is enormous driver satisfaction to be had from trying a balance a good RWD around a track, whether that be a standard MX5, Mk3 MR2, GT86, Caterham etc or a modified saloon etc. Aside from that are other factors like no torque steer, better weight distribution and often a much nicer driving position than a hatchback. It can be about much, much more than pure speed or surprising faster cars (which are also fun!).
loggyboy said:
BUT without a doubt the biggest reason is I can carry the knowledge that if take a few mph too much in to a bend and end up in the gravel/armco all I have to do is find another £1k clio, transplant what I can from my wreck on to that and start again.
I have to say I don't like this attitude at track days and I am not alone. It encourages drivers (particularly less skilled ones) in track sheds to push too hard and that increases the risk to other drivers massively.Examples - having cars spin right in front of you can force you into your own accident or a collision with the spinning car; fluids or gravel or grass/mud on track from cars re-entering the track can cause other cars to slide off; red flags rob people of track time while a car gets recovered or the track surface is sorted out.
This attitude is why a lot of nice cars don't come to cheaper track days and stick to more expensive providers.
How about a 1 series BMW hatch.
120i or even a 120D are in budget. And before you dismiss a 120D because they are diesel, remember they have been reasonably popular in endurance racing!
Petrol examples:
120i
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201... (if you can do some spannering)
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
130i
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
Diesel examples:
120D
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
123D
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
120i or even a 120D are in budget. And before you dismiss a 120D because they are diesel, remember they have been reasonably popular in endurance racing!
Petrol examples:
120i
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201... (if you can do some spannering)
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
130i
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
Diesel examples:
120D
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
123D
https://www.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201...
Edited by andy97 on Thursday 27th June 12:56
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