Should race cars be banned from attending track days?
Poll: Should race cars be banned from attending track days?
Total Members Polled: 300
Discussion
Most club racers will be out there to do the same thing as any trackdaygoers- pound round the circuit at a brisk pace. Whether they’re doing it to shake down a car, test setup changes, learn the circuit, is irrelevant- the method is largely the same.
Some may have a lack of awareness/consideration, some may be more comfortable in proximity to other cars and get unreasonably close, some may be closer to the limit than most and chasing finer margins- these are all traits that I have seen in as many road car trackdaygoers as I have race cars.
Passing an ARDS is not difficult. I make very little distinction between road car and race car on a track day, the rules are the same and in my experience get treated with a similar amount of respect by both parties. In my view the most dangerous people are those who feel their car is dispensable- whether it’s a tool beating on a £300 snotter for kicks, or a rich tool in a £300k GT3 car that he can afford to crash today and replace tomorrow, these types almost always seem to bring the wrong attitude. Maybe it’s due to the club I race with (CSCC) but I get the impression that *most* club racers will have a lot of time, money and love invested in their machinery, and will want to keep it straight.
Some may have a lack of awareness/consideration, some may be more comfortable in proximity to other cars and get unreasonably close, some may be closer to the limit than most and chasing finer margins- these are all traits that I have seen in as many road car trackdaygoers as I have race cars.
Passing an ARDS is not difficult. I make very little distinction between road car and race car on a track day, the rules are the same and in my experience get treated with a similar amount of respect by both parties. In my view the most dangerous people are those who feel their car is dispensable- whether it’s a tool beating on a £300 snotter for kicks, or a rich tool in a £300k GT3 car that he can afford to crash today and replace tomorrow, these types almost always seem to bring the wrong attitude. Maybe it’s due to the club I race with (CSCC) but I get the impression that *most* club racers will have a lot of time, money and love invested in their machinery, and will want to keep it straight.
It is an interesting point that this thread has had about 160 comments with a number saying Race Cars should not be on track days. By contrast however there is a much newer thread about an ex BTCC Vauxhall which has already had over 190 posts with many fawning over the car a d asking when it is going to be on its next track day.
Nickjd said:
It is an interesting point that this thread has had about 160 comments with a number saying Race Cars should not be on track days. By contrast however there is a much newer thread about an ex BTCC Vauxhall which has already had over 190 posts with many fawning over the car a d asking when it is going to be on its next track day.
But are the majority actually saying 'race cars' should be banned, or saying drivers using a track day as a 'cheap test day in a race car' should be banned?My initial response was the latter.
mmm-five said:
But are the majority actually saying 'race cars' should be banned, or saying drivers using a track day as a 'cheap test day in a race car' should be banned?
My initial response was the latter.
I think this is where the definition should be. What do you define as a race car? My car is slowly turning into a car that will be up to MSA standards to go racing but it's still road registered and i won't be driving it in any race series for the foreseeable future. So when it is finished should it be banned as it's technically a race eligible car?My initial response was the latter.
The issue comes down to if teams are using the trackdays as cheap test days and doing so in an obvious manner. I remember being on a trackday at Snetterton with a load of race cars. Most were fine but what annoyed me was sharing a garage with 4 Caterhams who spent the lunchbreak reviewing video footage with laid over laptimes and discussing where to pick up some tenths and how to do so on the next set of laps. They didn't care that in the briefing it was clearly 'no timing allowed', had the laptops out all day and were moaning about road cars getting in there way on certain parts of the circuit.
It's more about the attitude of the driver than the car as has been said plenty of times in this thread.
sideshowfred said:
I think this is where the definition should be. What do you define as a race car? My car is slowly turning into a car that will be up to MSA standards to go racing but it's still road registered and i won't be driving it in any race series for the foreseeable future. So when it is finished should it be banned as it's technically a race eligible car?
The issue comes down to if teams are using the trackdays as cheap test days and doing so in an obvious manner. I remember being on a trackday at Snetterton with a load of race cars. Most were fine but what annoyed me was sharing a garage with 4 Caterhams who spent the lunchbreak reviewing video footage with laid over laptimes and discussing where to pick up some tenths and how to do so on the next set of laps. They didn't care that in the briefing it was clearly 'no timing allowed', had the laptops out all day and were moaning about road cars getting in there way on certain parts of the circuit.
It's more about the attitude of the driver than the car as has been said plenty of times in this thread.
It is pretty annoying with dwadlers don't move over when they should.The issue comes down to if teams are using the trackdays as cheap test days and doing so in an obvious manner. I remember being on a trackday at Snetterton with a load of race cars. Most were fine but what annoyed me was sharing a garage with 4 Caterhams who spent the lunchbreak reviewing video footage with laid over laptimes and discussing where to pick up some tenths and how to do so on the next set of laps. They didn't care that in the briefing it was clearly 'no timing allowed', had the laptops out all day and were moaning about road cars getting in there way on certain parts of the circuit.
It's more about the attitude of the driver than the car as has been said plenty of times in this thread.
johnwilliams77 said:
It is pretty annoying with dwadlers don't move over when they should.
Oh i agree, but my issue is people who are clearly doing testing whinging that on a normal track day they are being held up by road cars so they can't get a proper lap time in. There main issue seemed to be catching upto people at the end the the Bentley Straight then being held up round Brundle and Nelson.If you attend a general trackday you have to accept the fact that you will meet slower cars at points they cannot move over for a couple of corners.
As i said, it comes down to attitude of the driver.
sideshowfred said:
Oh i agree, but my issue is people who are clearly doing testing whinging that on a normal track day they are being held up by road cars so they can't get a proper lap time in. There main issue seemed to be catching upto people at the end the the Bentley Straight then being held up round Brundle and Nelson.
If you attend a general trackday you have to accept the fact that you will meet slower cars at points they cannot move over for a couple of corners.
As i said, it comes down to attitude of the driver.
The best solution I have found is to be in a brisk car yourself, doesn't have to be the level of GT3RS or Lotus 3-11 but something brisk out of the box for 20-30k like an exige or caterham should be within 10-20secs of most cars so the speed differential shouldn't be so large.If you attend a general trackday you have to accept the fact that you will meet slower cars at points they cannot move over for a couple of corners.
As i said, it comes down to attitude of the driver.
johnwilliams77 said:
The best solution I have found is to be in a brisk car yourself, doesn't have to be the level of GT3RS or Lotus 3-11 but something brisk out of the box for 20-30k like an exige or caterham should be within 10-20secs of most cars so the speed differential shouldn't be so large.
10 20 seconds is a huge gap and will generate significant closing speeds. As for dwadlers, just overtake in the straights, that's the only way allowed way on a TD anyway, well apart from through Coram of course.
johnwilliams77 said:
The best solution I have found is to be in a brisk car yourself, doesn't have to be the level of GT3RS or Lotus 3-11 but something brisk out of the box for 20-30k like an exige or caterham should be within 10-20secs of most cars so the speed differential shouldn't be so large.
that works. but what about the innocent fun of a great handling car like a low powered mx5, old Elan, warm hatch etc? why should they be elbowed out of the way by a knobber/slower driver in fast machinery? under track day rules they shouldn't of course...CABC said:
that works. but what about the innocent fun of a great handling car like a low powered mx5, old Elan, warm hatch etc? why should they be elbowed out of the way by a knobber/slower driver in fast machinery? under track day rules they shouldn't of course...
They shouldn’t but it happens and most quick drivers I have seen tend to go closer than most of them would find comfortable - usually because they’re ex race drivers and so a couple of m for them is miles!nickfrog said:
10 20 seconds is a huge gap and will generate significant closing speeds.
As for dwadlers, just overtake in the straights, that's the only way allowed way on a TD anyway, well apart from through Coram of course.
Agree but depends on the track - on the ring trackdays, less so. Sub 10 would be better for smaller tracks like Donnington As for dwadlers, just overtake in the straights, that's the only way allowed way on a TD anyway, well apart from through Coram of course.
nickfrog said:
10 20 seconds is a huge gap and will generate significant closing speeds.
Absolutely. Donington national, 10 secs is the difference between a BTCC car and something like a Civic Cup Car, which would see closing speeds of 30-40 mph. 20 secs is the difference between a BTCC car and a steadily driven MX5.
Similar story at Oulton, Brands etc. Silverstone/Thruxton would be an even bigger difference.
johnwilliams77 said:
The best solution I have found is to be in a brisk car yourself, doesn't have to be the level of GT3RS or Lotus 3-11 but something brisk out of the box for 20-30k like an exige or caterham should be within 10-20secs of most cars so the speed differential shouldn't be so large.
Unfortunately not all of us have £20-30K to spend on a car for track. Infact the 3 cars on my drive don't even come to half that. It's easy to say just buy something quicker but not all of us have the means or want to have anything quicker. My Clio is a great car on track, but it's slower than a lot of other things, does that mean it shouldn't be allowed?sideshowfred said:
johnwilliams77 said:
The best solution I have found is to be in a brisk car yourself, doesn't have to be the level of GT3RS or Lotus 3-11 but something brisk out of the box for 20-30k like an exige or caterham should be within 10-20secs of most cars so the speed differential shouldn't be so large.
Unfortunately not all of us have £20-30K to spend on a car for track. Infact the 3 cars on my drive don't even come to half that. It's easy to say just buy something quicker but not all of us have the means or want to have anything quicker. My Clio is a great car on track, but it's slower than a lot of other things, does that mean it shouldn't be allowed?
I never attended a trackday in the early 2000s but from what I've read/seen it was all about buying a cheap shed, doing a couple of upgrades (making sure brakes will last the day etc.) and just driving the hell out of it on track. For those of us who don't have £0000s to spend, there's still a big element of that for us. You could say there should be two types of trackdays - one for slow sheds, and another for Exige speed and above. But then it's likely TDOs wouldn't make enough money because they wouldn't be able to sell out on either type of day. I don't think having a speed restriction solves the problem, be it for fast or slow cars. There's been times I've had on track where drivers are learning and going very slowly (imagine your mother on track), so closing speeds are bigger than normal (even in my little MX5!) but there was no problems - I respected the driver wasn't confident to push any more, and they respected the fact I was quicker. It seems to be more about driver attitude than car choice.
MRichards99 said:
Perhaps everything should be a lot slower I never attended a trackday in the early 2000s but from what I've read/seen it was all about buying a cheap shed, doing a couple of upgrades (making sure brakes will last the day etc.) and just driving the hell out of it on track. For those of us who don't have £0000s to spend, there's still a big element of that for us. You could say there should be two types of trackdays - one for slow sheds, and another for Exige speed and above. But then it's likely TDOs wouldn't make enough money because they wouldn't be able to sell out on either type of day. I don't think having a speed restriction solves the problem, be it for fast or slow cars.
There's been times I've had on track where drivers are learning and going very slowly (imagine your mother on track), so closing speeds are bigger than normal (even in my little MX5!) but there was no problems - I respected the driver wasn't confident to push any more, and they respected the fact I was quicker. It seems to be more about driver attitude than car choice.
things have changed in the last 10-15 years. it's far more prevalent now for people with very little talent/experience to get their nat b and go racing. many years ago it was just more hassle and that was a natural filter, to a degree. add to this the fact that just a little money now buys a fast car and the problems are there to be seen on many a track/test day. i believe (happy for someone informed to clarify) that the infamous bmw t-boning at the bedford hairpin on a wet day a couple of years ago was a "racer". i suspect that most mature racers who got their licence 20 years ago would have behaved differently than the new easy entrants. I never attended a trackday in the early 2000s but from what I've read/seen it was all about buying a cheap shed, doing a couple of upgrades (making sure brakes will last the day etc.) and just driving the hell out of it on track. For those of us who don't have £0000s to spend, there's still a big element of that for us. You could say there should be two types of trackdays - one for slow sheds, and another for Exige speed and above. But then it's likely TDOs wouldn't make enough money because they wouldn't be able to sell out on either type of day. I don't think having a speed restriction solves the problem, be it for fast or slow cars. There's been times I've had on track where drivers are learning and going very slowly (imagine your mother on track), so closing speeds are bigger than normal (even in my little MX5!) but there was no problems - I respected the driver wasn't confident to push any more, and they respected the fact I was quicker. It seems to be more about driver attitude than car choice.
i'm looking forward to chatting this over with Colin, Dave and other TDOs next year. Jonny was a great TDO, but he's moved on.
TDOs do have a problem that's getting worse. Let's not exaggerate the issue, but it is there and i encourage to nip it in the bud. i do 10 days a year across the country with BaT, OT, Jav, MSV, LoT and others.
Just to add into this topic, I was at a Javelin day yesterday at Donington Park. There were a few race cars but not many presumably due to time of year/potential poor weather.
Anyway, in the garage next to me was a Ginetta Junior team, with junior driver. They didn't go out for a while but as soon as they did there was a chap stood on the pit wall with an ipad, clipboard and stopwatch. A couple of mintures later a chap from Javelin wandered over and told him to put it away as it was a public trackday not a testing session. It truly made my day. The chap tried arguing that he wasn't doing anything but they had been watching him from race control and noted who it was doing it and what he was upto.
Needless to say he spent the rest of the day hiding in the garage.
The few other race cars were all very well behaved, even the C1's so it's definitely a driver/team attitude thing rather than the cars themselves.
Anyway, in the garage next to me was a Ginetta Junior team, with junior driver. They didn't go out for a while but as soon as they did there was a chap stood on the pit wall with an ipad, clipboard and stopwatch. A couple of mintures later a chap from Javelin wandered over and told him to put it away as it was a public trackday not a testing session. It truly made my day. The chap tried arguing that he wasn't doing anything but they had been watching him from race control and noted who it was doing it and what he was upto.
Needless to say he spent the rest of the day hiding in the garage.
The few other race cars were all very well behaved, even the C1's so it's definitely a driver/team attitude thing rather than the cars themselves.
I've raced in several tin-top categories, and national karting as a kid. I've done a few days of testing on track days, testing on test days, and track days in my daily driver. My feeling as that they should be distinct.
With the greatest of respect to most track day participants, they're not driving at ten-tenths, they're driving quickly, and there's a big difference.
The last track-day i did in a road car (e92 M3) i came very close to taking someone out (991 Carrera) because (as i saw it) he was about a half a mile away and approaching a right-hander, i hit my braking point and before i knew it i was about an inch from his back bumper and actually had to steer onto the grass to avoid contact. who's fault was it? well, i figured i'd left an enormous amount of space, yet he decided to stop his car almost dead before turning in. And therein lies the difference. the guy wasn't aiming to brake late, or carry speed through an apex, and hang his @rse out on the exit. he was there to enjoy his new 991 by driving quicker than he could on the road.....but not as quickly as he would as a racing driver. And i think that distinction should be respected.
I've also done test days where its everything from Golf GTi's, to 911 GT3s (and radicals that are so low you cant see them in your mirror). I expected it to be terrifying, but because everyone is a racing driver there is a degree of predictability that you don't get on a track day
So with the above in mind, whats the solution? its hard. there's not much distinction between race cars and road cars. some race cars are road legal. some road cars are stripped out with roll cages (think 911 GT3) so look like race cars. Ultimately its down to the organiser to make a distinction, which they wont do if it means they lose revenue. So the only realistic thing they can say is "no timing", "overtaking only on the left", etc.
With the greatest of respect to most track day participants, they're not driving at ten-tenths, they're driving quickly, and there's a big difference.
The last track-day i did in a road car (e92 M3) i came very close to taking someone out (991 Carrera) because (as i saw it) he was about a half a mile away and approaching a right-hander, i hit my braking point and before i knew it i was about an inch from his back bumper and actually had to steer onto the grass to avoid contact. who's fault was it? well, i figured i'd left an enormous amount of space, yet he decided to stop his car almost dead before turning in. And therein lies the difference. the guy wasn't aiming to brake late, or carry speed through an apex, and hang his @rse out on the exit. he was there to enjoy his new 991 by driving quicker than he could on the road.....but not as quickly as he would as a racing driver. And i think that distinction should be respected.
I've also done test days where its everything from Golf GTi's, to 911 GT3s (and radicals that are so low you cant see them in your mirror). I expected it to be terrifying, but because everyone is a racing driver there is a degree of predictability that you don't get on a track day
So with the above in mind, whats the solution? its hard. there's not much distinction between race cars and road cars. some race cars are road legal. some road cars are stripped out with roll cages (think 911 GT3) so look like race cars. Ultimately its down to the organiser to make a distinction, which they wont do if it means they lose revenue. So the only realistic thing they can say is "no timing", "overtaking only on the left", etc.
Lord Flasheart said:
So the only realistic thing they can say is "no timing", "overtaking only on the left", etc.
Yes correct application of the rules would just take this whole issue away, to give benefit of doubt to the TDO's they can't see all corners, all cars and all drivers at the same time so they do rely on people reporting bad behaviour... from my side I've never seen behaviour bad enough/repetitive enough to warrant reporting - as generally I just make a mental note to avoid a certain car/driver if something happens as a one-off. I don't stay up their arse trying to provoke another issue.sideshowfred said:
a chap from Javelin wandered over and told him to put it away as it was a public trackday not a testing session. It truly made my day. The chap tried arguing that he wasn't doing anything but they had been watching him from race control and noted who it was doing it and what he was upto.
Needless to say he spent the rest of the day hiding in the garage
This is a problem, at every single trackday I've attended (20+ across Javeling and LoT mainly) the briefing always states a zero tolerance to timing. Him (and his on-track buddy) should have been sent packing immediately, not just told to "put it away". Needless to say he spent the rest of the day hiding in the garage
Fonzey said:
This is a problem, at every single trackday I've attended (20+ across Javeling and LoT mainly) the briefing always states a zero tolerance to timing. Him (and his on-track buddy) should have been sent packing immediately, not just told to "put it away".
I agree, but I was just happy that something was atleast said rather than them ignoring it. Strangely though during the lunch break the garage they were in had all four shutters down and both little doors shut. I commented to my brother in law that they were probably going through data and shut all the doors so no one could see it. sideshowfred said:
I agree, but I was just happy that something was atleast said rather than them ignoring it. Strangely though during the lunch break the garage they were in had all four shutters down and both little doors shut. I commented to my brother in law that they were probably going through data and shut all the doors so no one could see it.
Vbox / data loggers also allow to understand throttle position, how hard you're breaking and lines through bends which can be very useful in terms of coaching and learning a cars balance. The assumption that everyone with a laptop looking solely at times is not always true. Gassing Station | Track Days | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff