MTB for a roadie vol 2: Help Choose The Next Bike!

MTB for a roadie vol 2: Help Choose The Next Bike!

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Discussion

defblade

Original Poster:

7,392 posts

212 months

Thursday 21st April 2022
quotequote all
First off, thanks for all the advice on my first thread. It's been emotional biggrin

With the Trek up for sale and my determination to get something 29", slacker, trail/all round, still in XL... I've got to choose something!
I'm riding blues and hoping to progress to reds with training and practise; road riding is still my first love though, so this bike will be used probably once a week or so on average.

Bad news: The plan to hire/demo a few has been thwarted by a complete lack of XL bikes at the local hire place frown , so I'm back to guessing a bit.

Good news: my company got bought out recently, turns out the new lot do Bike2Work, and I creep into the 40% tax bracket, so suddenly buying second hand looks pointless as 40-odd percent off a new bike is better than a lot of second hand prices at the moment!


I've trawled the partner sites, focussing mainly on head tube angle and actual availability. Exact fit not too important according to my bike fit guy as I'm very flexible. Budget is somewhere between £1000-2000 as I think it'd be hard to buy a terrible bike in that range, especially sticking with hardtails.

So what's top and bottom of the charts out of this lot?
Listed in no particular order; there's a couple I'm more drawn to, but not for any good reasons as far as I know!
There's a slightly more budget joker on the end, too.


Ragley Big Al, £1400
Ragley Big Wig, £2000
NukeProof Scout 290 race, £1300
Whyte 529 v4, £1450
Whyte 629 v4, £1750
Ribble HT Al 29, £1700 (cheaper and more expensive builds available... it's Ribble, after all!)
GT Zaskar LT Elite, £1350
GT Zaskar LT Expert, £1650
Orbea Laufey H30, £1500
Orange Crush 29, £1800

And the cheaper one (might be all I need, at about half the price?)
Vitus Sentier, £850


Massive thanks in advance to anyone who even reads through that list enough to have an idea! thumbup



Edited by defblade on Friday 22 April 21:57


Edited by defblade on Saturday 23 April 23:39

missing the VR6

2,320 posts

188 months

Thursday 21st April 2022
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I've ridden a 27.5 Orange Crush and it was good, I'm an absolute Orange fan boi, currently on my 3rd, but the Orange tax on their hardtails is a bit too much for me. IF they were made in the UK like the full bouncers then OK, they're not so I can pass on them. I've a 27.5 Ragley Mmmbop and apart from the terrible name, it's a fabulous thing, really impressed with the geo. Probably because it's a £300 frame the paint durability is poor. I'm definitely a big Ragley fan.

OutInTheShed

7,361 posts

25 months

Thursday 21st April 2022
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Not perhaps helpful, but are you sure you want hardtail?

Bunch of people I know all bought Calibre full sus bikes for a bit over a grand and have said they're great.

If you want to do the slack geometry thing, isn't that taking you towards the areas where full sus is a benefit?

I'm not saying you're wrong, more asking you to share your thoughts as I'm in similar circumstances (except being more of a secondhand kind of buyer!)

missing the VR6

2,320 posts

188 months

Thursday 21st April 2022
quotequote all
OutInTheShed said:
Not perhaps helpful, but are you sure you want hardtail?

Bunch of people I know all bought Calibre full sus bikes for a bit over a grand and have said they're great.

If you want to do the slack geometry thing, isn't that taking you towards the areas where full sus is a benefit?

I'm not saying you're wrong, more asking you to share your thoughts as I'm in similar circumstances (except being more of a secondhand kind of buyer!)
My Ragley has a 63.something head angle if memory serves, 150mm fork and it's an absolute beast, peddles great, goes down all the things I have the talent for, more often than not I take it over the full suss. Potentially it peddles brilliantly, because I've had full sus for the last 11-12 years though. I think the OP rides in Wales, so should be able to benefit from good geo. While the Calibre is an admirable bike ( I was trying to get one for my fiancé) a hard tail would probably come with a dropper post for example for the same budget and probably a better fork or group set.

TT1138

738 posts

133 months

Thursday 21st April 2022
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On the list I would choose the Ragley Big Wig. The Ragley Marley I had was an excellent bike and Ragley are good value for money.

Alternatively instead of the Ribble you’ve looked at I’d push the budget a little and get the Ribble 725 Pro, arguably a much better spec plus a steel frame.

As it’s also expected that one mentions the bikes they currently own I’d also add the On One Big Dog and the Hello Dave to the list.

The Hello Dave is probably a bit much for what you’re looking for (it’s essentially an enduro hardtail) but the spec is hard to beat. The Big Dog is also a really great bike (I use it for ‘trail’ riding and keep the Hello Dave for bike parks) that is more than capable of BPW blues and reds.

take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey

5,071 posts

54 months

Thursday 21st April 2022
quotequote all
Pop in a 2k budget into pink bike buy/sell forum and pick up 2018ish full sus with all the bells and whistles - that gets you into modern geo.

Later bikes will be even more progressive but you'll take a hit on component spec.

For UK trail riding, 130 - 140 rear travel is plenty.

As an aside, XL suggests you're tall. If your3very tall, later bikes got longer (better fit).

I'm 6' 5" and my old Evil Insurgent (2017) was the first bike that properly fitted me. My newer bikes are better still.


OutInTheShed

7,361 posts

25 months

Thursday 21st April 2022
quotequote all
missing the VR6 said:
My Ragley has a 63.something head angle if memory serves, 150mm fork and it's an absolute beast, peddles great, goes down all the things I have the talent for, more often than not I take it over the full suss. Potentially it peddles brilliantly, because I've had full sus for the last 11-12 years though. I think the OP rides in Wales, so should be able to benefit from good geo. While the Calibre is an admirable bike ( I was trying to get one for my fiancé) a hard tail would probably come with a dropper post for example for the same budget and probably a better fork or group set.
Are we seeing people moving away from full sus?

Or is it more about the type of rides you want to do?
Is full sus mostly for the high speed limb breaking nutters these days and sane people are enjoying gravel and hardtail without killing themselves?
I do have a slight concern that a more capable bike will mean my first real crash is on the messy side.

defblade

Original Poster:

7,392 posts

212 months

Thursday 21st April 2022
quotequote all
@ TGCOTFD: I'm 6' 4" and perched on my 2012 bike. Sadly the 2nd hand budget would be more like £1k as no B2W 43% tax saving... hence this thread wink




OutInTheShed said:
Not perhaps helpful, but are you sure you want hardtail?
Bunch of people I know all bought Calibre full sus bikes for a bit over a grand and have said they're great.
If you want to do the slack geometry thing, isn't that taking you towards the areas where full sus is a benefit?
I'm not saying you're wrong, more asking you to share your thoughts as I'm in similar circumstances (except being more of a secondhand kind of buyer!)
I'm sticking to hardtails on my list as there mainly seems to be a break at £2k where the FS starts... and that's really pushing the budget for this bike, even on B2W. I'd be a 2nd hand buyer, too, if it wasn't for B2W... but I'd probably still go hardtail. As Missing the VR6 says, the general spec of a hardtail at this (or I guess any) price point will be higher than a FS - there's a much less complicated frame and one less shock to pay for, at least.

Maybe weirdly, the part of riding downhill trails I really don't mind, is the back end skipping around and sliding a bit. I found the same when I did an off-road motorbiking course many years ago... nervous as hell about what the front end is doing, but happy that the back end will follow in it's own good time (or even riding kind of diagonally along the flat with the front wheel in one rut and the back in another).

But being nervous about steep-ish bits and knowing what that front end is doing is pushing me to the slack geo... I've had a very quick pedal up-and-down-a-bit on one, and it felt good.



@TT1138: PlanetX bikes are certainly on my radar, I like the style and I'm not welded to brand names (as you can tell from my "short" list!), but they don't work with my employer's B2W scheme, so they've got to be 40% better for a given price to compete... and I suspect they're close, but not quite.
The Ribble 725 is out as I definitely want 29" wheels... I'm at the top end of their sizing on that one, too (again, probably the wheels).

GravelBen

15,654 posts

229 months

Friday 22nd April 2022
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I'm going to do what people always do on these threads and recommend the bike I have... hehe

Have a look at the Merida Big Trail if Merida is an option for the discount scemes - mine is the Big Trail 500 model but I've upgraded the fork to the same Marzocchi Z2 as the 600, if the 600 is in budget I think its worth the extra (600 wasn't available when I got mine).

Great handling bike with well sorted trail geometry (slack without being too slack), sensible component spec, they even do an XXL size if the XL isn't quite big enough for you.

I like the look of the Ragleys too and if they were available here in similar price range I might well have got a Big Al instead, but I've been very happy with the Merida.

Edited by GravelBen on Friday 22 April 01:51

anonymous-user

53 months

Friday 22nd April 2022
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I really liked my Cotic BFe, it was perfect for UK trails, big steel hard tail, 140mm forks and 26” wheels. I don’t know enough about forks to advise on the different models listed but I’d Be confident there’s no bad bike amongst them. A 29” hard tail would still be my choice for UK trails

Once you get tyres and pressure sorted, the lack of apparent front end grip issue disappears, it always amazed me how people would stick to one tyre irrespective of location or conditions, like they’d turn up to a rally stage with slicks on tenor car or a track day with gravel tyres.

W00DY

15,467 posts

225 months

Friday 22nd April 2022
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Of your list the Big Al stands out for having a great (but not flashy) spec for a very good price. Cheaper steel frames are heavy and give, at best very little ride improvement.

If I was spending more I'd feel robbed by some of those compared to a Sonder Cortex

https://alpkit.com/products/sonder-cortex-sx-eagle

take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey

5,071 posts

54 months

Friday 22nd April 2022
quotequote all
So at 6'4" OP ideally you want to get a bike that is 500mm and over in 'reach'.

This will give you a fast stable bike that you sit in rather than perch on - less chance of out the front door moments as the bike will be more forgiving.

I'd also look at one that has enough space in the rear to run mullet+ (I. E. 27.5 rear wheel). This set up will allow you to run a plus sized rear tyre which makes a hell of a distance comfort wize. Second hand 27.5 wheels are cheap and plentiful.

In your list of bikes, I'd be looking at the one with the best forks as this will be thing you notice most when pedalling off road. Brakes / groupset - even the lowest spec stuff is good these days.


defblade

Original Poster:

7,392 posts

212 months

Friday 22nd April 2022
quotequote all
pablo said:
I really liked my Cotic BFe, it was perfect for UK trails, big steel hard tail, 140mm forks and 26” wheels. I don’t know enough about forks to advise on the different models listed but I’d Be confident there’s no bad bike amongst them. A 29” hard tail would still be my choice for UK trails.
I really like the Cotics, but the price is a little too high (and IIRC, they don't use the right scheme) so they didn't make the short list.


W00DY said:
Of your list the Big Al stands out for having a great (but not flashy) spec for a very good price. Cheaper steel frames are heavy and give, at best very little ride improvement.
If I was spending more I'd feel robbed by some of those compared to a Sonder Cortex
https://alpkit.com/products/sonder-cortex-sx-eagle
I couldn't see that the Big Wig offered nearly half as much again, and there does seem to be plenty of Ragley love on this thread smile
I've not studied the Sonder spec and it might be interesting... but Alpkit don't use the right scheme either frown



take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
So at 6'4" OP ideally you want to get a bike that is 500mm and over in 'reach'.
This will give you a fast stable bike that you sit in rather than perch on - less chance of out the front door moments as the bike will be more forgiving.
I'd also look at one that has enough space in the rear to run mullet+ (I. E. 27.5 rear wheel). This set up will allow you to run a plus sized rear tyre which makes a hell of a distance comfort wize. Second hand 27.5 wheels are cheap and plentiful.
In your list of bikes, I'd be looking at the one with the best forks as this will be thing you notice most when pedalling off road. Brakes / groupset - even the lowest spec stuff is good these days.
I'll go back through the list latter with those things in mind - all sounds like good advice, thanks...


...and again, thanks to all taking the trouble to help thumbup

defblade

Original Poster:

7,392 posts

212 months

Friday 22nd April 2022
quotequote all
defblade said:
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
So at 6'4" OP ideally you want to get a bike that is 500mm and over in 'reach'.
I'll go back through the list latter with those things in mind - all sounds like good advice, thanks...
Only the Whyte bikes have more than 500mm reach; the Orange is the shortest by some margin and toppy on price so removed; similarly I've pulled the Big Wig as, while it's undoubtedly very nice, I think I'd have to use it hard and frequently to be worth £600 more than the Big Al (which shares most of its geo, apart from headtube length, as far as I can see.
And I'll take out the cheap bike, too - also short in reach, has received zero love... and... I'm not going to buy it over some of the other lookers, am I? wink

take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey

5,071 posts

54 months

Friday 22nd April 2022
quotequote all
defblade said:
Only the Whyte bikes have more than 500mm reach; the Orange is the shortest by some margin and toppy on price so removed; similarly I've pulled the Big Wig as, while it's undoubtedly very nice, I think I'd have to use it hard and frequently to be worth £600 more than the Big Al (which shares most of its geo, apart from headtube length, as far as I can see.
And I'll take out the cheap bike, too - also short in reach, has received zero love... and... I'm not going to buy it over some of the other lookers, am I? wink
I used to have nothing positive to say about whytes... They were poorly built and handled terribly IME...but this was 20 years ago. I vowed never to own another.

Then I picked up a new Whyte T130 for my son (seduced by a huge discount on a previous year model) about 3 years ago now. I've got to say, it was brilliant. Superb spec for the money... Geometry was absolutely on point. I've since seen a few owners of them and never once has one of the owners had a bad thing to say about them.

Funnily enough I looked at the whyte hardtail myself, and it was only a lack of stock at the time and then finding an even longer reach hardtail that stopped me getting one.

I was very impressed by where they'd spent the money on spec. It was absolutely where it offered the best performance. The only thing I could criticise was the wheel weight - but I'm nitpicking.

So I'd definitely consider the whyte in your shoes.

TT1138

738 posts

133 months

Saturday 23rd April 2022
quotequote all
defblade said:
Only the Whyte bikes have more than 500mm reach; the Orange is the shortest by some margin and toppy on price so removed; similarly I've pulled the Big Wig as, while it's undoubtedly very nice, I think I'd have to use it hard and frequently to be worth £600 more than the Big Al (which shares most of its geo, apart from headtube length, as far as I can see.
And I'll take out the cheap bike, too - also short in reach, has received zero love... and... I'm not going to buy it over some of the other lookers, am I? wink
Don’t take out my only recommendation biggrin

I think the extra for steel is worth it, although I’ll admit to having a steel hardtail problem! Cheaper aluminium frames can be a bit crashy and stiff, steel will give a little more compliance and be a bit less firm. As someone who buys to keep bikes a long time, I also like that steel can be fixed easily, and doesn’t really have a fatigue life.

Better wheels and SLX drivetrain too.

However, don’t buy anything on your list.

If you can find £1k and act very, very quickly On One have the Big Dog up for £999 and they’ve got a few in XL. The spec blows anything else you’ve looked at out of the water. SRAM GX 12 speed (XT equivalent) and the Rockshox 35 Gold (Rockshox Pike 35mm chassis with the older revelation inside essentially, not perfect but very good). Boost front and rear, 65 degree head angle. As mentioned earlier I have one, you can ride it so hard and it comes alive.

take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey

5,071 posts

54 months

Saturday 23rd April 2022
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Only 480mm reach in xl though.

I'm only an inch taller and all my frames are between 515 yo 535mm and this is on a 50mm stem.

Otherwise I agree - great VFM.

Hello Dave is a better fit - do on one do c2w?

trashbat

6,005 posts

152 months

Saturday 23rd April 2022
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I know you said it's out of budget but I've got a Cotic Soul from a year or so before they stopped making them, it's a lovely bike. Infinitely nicer than all the big name alu stuff.

The Solaris Max is its 29" successor and starts at about £2300.

I think they are pretty good on the schemes you can use - https://www.cotic.co.uk/cycletowork/

Not C2W obviously but there are a fair few nice second hand bikes out there at even bigger discounts. For Cotic there's an owners group on Facebook that might be worth a glance at least.

Bill

52,472 posts

254 months

Saturday 23rd April 2022
quotequote all
take-good-care-of-the-forest-dewey said:
I used to have nothing positive to say about whytes... They were poorly built and handled terribly IME...but this was 20 years ago. I vowed never to own another.

Then I picked up a new Whyte T130 for my son (seduced by a huge discount on a previous year model) about 3 years ago now. I've got to say, it was brilliant. Superb spec for the money... Geometry was absolutely on point. I've since seen a few owners of them and never once has one of the owners had a bad thing to say about them.

Funnily enough I looked at the whyte hardtail myself, and it was only a lack of stock at the time and then finding an even longer reach hardtail that stopped me getting one.

I was very impressed by where they'd spent the money on spec. It was absolutely where it offered the best performance. The only thing I could criticise was the wheel weight - but I'm nitpicking.

So I'd definitely consider the whyte in your shoes.
I had a couple of minor issues with my 901 (both sorted pdq) and am really pleased with it.

defblade

Original Poster:

7,392 posts

212 months

Sunday 24th April 2022
quotequote all
Oh, this doesn't get any easier!

I've been out today for 6 hours of mtb coaching. Utterly brilliant, and although I'm going to have to practice lots to get it all into muscle memory, I've got a good grip now on what feels right and wrong starting from general riding position, little functional manuals, pumping (too good at that! Back on the brakes a lot!), cornering including berms, small drops (tho enough to accidentally get some air... which feels much less scary that I thought it would) and bigger rollable drops... like the one that threw me OTB 3 weeks ago (very nervous the first time on those!).

But the coach agreed that the Trek is a bit small for me and that, while it's no bad thing to learn on a less forgiving bike, the same skills on a modern geo 29er that fits me better should give a ride that's super smooth and stable (well, for a hardtail). Pics and/or video may appear for your amusement when they come through wink



In the meantime, I'm still trying to balance reach vs recommended rider sizes - I really want something that I'm going to sit in. I'd ignored the Big Dog as it says up to 6'3" (I agree the price is such that just buying it wouldn't feel too painful without B2W). Same with the Hello Dave.

I've also spent some time on reviews... So gone from the list are the NukeProof Scout (sounds like the sizing wouldn't suit); the 2 GTs - not for the reviews as such, IIRC, but as much as anything I just can't bring myself to like the colour of the nicer one, and that's the one I'd want; the Ribble - not much info available, and it doesn't float my boat as much as some others (I think the reach may have been relatively small, too?); the Orbea loses to the Ragley Big Al in terms of spec vs price; and the Whyte 529 on exactly the same basis.




Which leaves the Big Al (and I've found one video review where the guy waxes very lyrical about the compliance for an ally frame) and the Whyte 629.

For the Whyte, I'm bang in the middle (runs to 6'6").
For the Big Al, I'm at the top end of recommended height.
I've added the Big Dog to comparison sites, and the figures come up very similar to the Ragley, yet I'm above their suggestion.

Comparison site one
Comparison site two
These might be more useful to someone with more knowledge than me?!

The effective prices for me on B2W would be £812 for the Big Al, and £1015 for the 629 - £200 in it, and both very reasonable given current pricing generally.

The Big Al has the Marz Bomber Z2 forks which get lots of love; the Whyte has RS 35 Gold which get lots of "meh, they're ok" and "the stiction frees up over some miles and a decent service".
The Big Al runs Shimano Deore M5100, which again seems to be more popular than the SRAM NX Eagle on the Whyte (although I've got basic SRAM Apex 1x on my road bike, and I'm completely happy with that).
So, on the whole, the Ragley looks like the better buy...
...but...
(a) I'm concerned about the frame size; essentially that's why I'm here. Components are less of an issue to me - I'm not going to pushing anything super hard anyway.
(b) I'm really drawn to the Whyte paperbag I like the clean looks and colour. And MBR.co.uk give it a write up that sounds exactly what I'm looking for: " Yes, the size XL is long – in every way – with a 505mm reach matched to a stubby 35mm stem. Factor in the low 300mm bottom bracket height and you really do feel centred and sitting in the bike."



So unless anyone can give me a good argument not to go the Whyte way, I think I'll crack on and start the B2W process Monday smile