What's a good lap time at Spa?

What's a good lap time at Spa?

Author
Discussion

dinkel

26,863 posts

257 months

Thursday 21st April 2016
quotequote all
Pro pilots take little powered cars into ER on full throttle. Going down, lift, aim and step on it towards the hill: you will need all the speed to crawl up there.

G-forces go from left to right and left again. Kinda diagonal through out the underpinnings of the car. It's all about being confident and happy with the car and your skill to drive it.

Walking from the outer paddocks all the way up to follow ER shows how incredibily steep it really is! Serious balls.

gruffalo

7,500 posts

225 months

Thursday 21st April 2016
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mpit said:
shim said:
I like it Mike, you have an easy 3-4 secs gain there next time you go.

Min speed ER needs to be 90-95 instead of 79 and early on power will gain you 1 sec up the Kemmel, a bit at Pouhon and B2 and youll be flying even more. Hard to tell the G forces but feels a bit like you coast occasionally
Yeah, that was probably one of my worst attempts at ER, which might explain my Virtual Best being a second quicker.

As for G-forces - they might be a little skewed because the phone was flying around inside my armrest, but here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9oJm7caLdXc
I like the way you are pulling 1g in a straight line;-)

Not great shakes on lap times but I think it shows sub 3min is perfectly achievable when not held up and if I actually applied myself to the task in hand;-)

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=W0ysLeZ8EDA

Phateuk

750 posts

136 months

Thursday 21st April 2016
quotequote all
mpit said:
I went to Spa for the first time today.

Managed 2:55 in my E92 M3 on Cup 2s with a virtual best in Harry's lap timer of 2:54.

I was pretty happy with that. I can't wait to do another day there!
How do you find the E92 on track? Is it modified at all?

I'm looking to get into one next as a daily driver plus 6-8 track days a year, my only concern is there's a lot of talk online about them being "too heavy" as standard for track use, brakes will last 5 laps etc etc.

I used my m135i on track once totally standard but the brake fluid couldn't cope, with uprated brake fluid (everything else oem) and I found this decent enough to have a good time on track, and be uncompromised for 10k a year road miles. Would the E92 be similar with this respect?

mpit

373 posts

169 months

Thursday 21st April 2016
quotequote all
Phateuk said:
How do you find the E92 on track? Is it modified at all?

I'm looking to get into one next as a daily driver plus 6-8 track days a year, my only concern is there's a lot of talk online about them being "too heavy" as standard for track use, brakes will last 5 laps etc etc.

I used my m135i on track once totally standard but the brake fluid couldn't cope, with uprated brake fluid (everything else oem) and I found this decent enough to have a good time on track, and be uncompromised for 10k a year road miles. Would the E92 be similar with this respect?
I could write about this all day, as it's something that has been in my mind a lot recently.

I can't help you on the brakes. After trying track with just uprated pads and fluid in my E46 and it boiling within a lap of Snetterton 300, I decided I was going to upgrade my brakes as soon as I got the E92. I currently have Stoptech Trophy brakes 380mm front 355 rear with RS29 pads - now they stop the car amazingly.

As for the rest of the car - Intrax 1K2 coilovers, Akra Exhaust and a Recaro Pole Position replacing the drivers seat.

It's hard to offer you my opinion because I modified mine very quickly - what I will say is that I think you'll struggle to find a do it all car that does it all better, with the exception of perhaps a GTR, but then that's a car that isn't as good on the road or inside. I originally bought the M3 as a single car to do it all, and it's done that perfectly. I went a little extreme on the suspension, but there are more sensible options like the Ohlins R&T for example.

All in all, yep, it's a heavy car - mine was corner weighted with 1/4 tank at 1580 before the seat and Akra, now it should be 1535kg. I do miss how chuckable my old Clio track car was, and that has had my eyes wandering.

Since we bought a boring family car, I've been looking at S2 Exiges around the 260bhp mark but I think I'll miss the option to take the M3 for the occasional family trip.

I don't think an Exige is much, if any faster than my current setup but I think it would be a lot more fun on track but making the car a lot more useless off it.

FWIW, in it's current guise it's managed the 2:55 at Spa, 0:56 at brands and a 2:15 at Snetterton. I have no idea on driver ability (other than my own, very average ability) but I've found my self surprised at keeping company with some GTRs, a few fast Caterhams, A presumably poorly driven Radical, Exige 360 and a few other things I figured I had no chance of staying anywhere near.

A chap I know with a very similar setup to me reckoned his friend put in a 2:48 at Spa in his car.

In Summary - I found mine perfect for the road/track car criteria, it's still fast as hell despite it's flaws. What I would ask is, if the M3 is too heavy for that work, what would the alternatives be?

shaunroche

208 posts

145 months

Thursday 21st April 2016
quotequote all
mpit said:
Finally uploaded a video - lap starts around 1:38

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lYzqbBngliU

Still turning in too early for Eau Rouge and taking it easy through Blanchimont - as the day went on, I found myself using the run off there a few times and decided taking it a little bit easier there and taking the car home in one piece was far more favourable biggrin

Happy to take constructive criticism if anyone has any pointers for me to take with me on my next visit!
Enjoyed watching that Mike! I was in the Black A45 Amg and the best I managed up Kemmel was 132mph so in trying to see where I was loosing time, that shows that braking into ER and taking it too slow, robs you of tons of momentum...lost time at Pouhon (didn't like the negative camber!) and got faster going through Blanchimont but couldn't help braking at the two little bollards on the right just before it, much to the disgust of my missus! smile

Speed generally wasn't a problem but braking was generally too soon and too hard.

Don't mind admitting my frailties and so must go out with someone who knows what is what and where!

Cheers for posting, enjoyed it and it's given me something to aim at! smile

Phateuk

750 posts

136 months

Thursday 21st April 2016
quotequote all
mpit said:
Phateuk said:
How do you find the E92 on track? Is it modified at all?

I'm looking to get into one next as a daily driver plus 6-8 track days a year, my only concern is there's a lot of talk online about them being "too heavy" as standard for track use, brakes will last 5 laps etc etc.

I used my m135i on track once totally standard but the brake fluid couldn't cope, with uprated brake fluid (everything else oem) and I found this decent enough to have a good time on track, and be uncompromised for 10k a year road miles. Would the E92 be similar with this respect?
I could write about this all day, as it's something that has been in my mind a lot recently.

I can't help you on the brakes. After trying track with just uprated pads and fluid in my E46 and it boiling within a lap of Snetterton 300, I decided I was going to upgrade my brakes as soon as I got the E92. I currently have Stoptech Trophy brakes 380mm front 355 rear with RS29 pads - now they stop the car amazingly.

As for the rest of the car - Intrax 1K2 coilovers, Akra Exhaust and a Recaro Pole Position replacing the drivers seat.

It's hard to offer you my opinion because I modified mine very quickly - what I will say is that I think you'll struggle to find a do it all car that does it all better, with the exception of perhaps a GTR, but then that's a car that isn't as good on the road or inside. I originally bought the M3 as a single car to do it all, and it's done that perfectly. I went a little extreme on the suspension, but there are more sensible options like the Ohlins R&T for example.

All in all, yep, it's a heavy car - mine was corner weighted with 1/4 tank at 1580 before the seat and Akra, now it should be 1535kg. I do miss how chuckable my old Clio track car was, and that has had my eyes wandering.

Since we bought a boring family car, I've been looking at S2 Exiges around the 260bhp mark but I think I'll miss the option to take the M3 for the occasional family trip.

I don't think an Exige is much, if any faster than my current setup but I think it would be a lot more fun on track but making the car a lot more useless off it.

FWIW, in it's current guise it's managed the 2:55 at Spa, 0:56 at brands and a 2:15 at Snetterton. I have no idea on driver ability (other than my own, very average ability) but I've found my self surprised at keeping company with some GTRs, a few fast Caterhams, A presumably poorly driven Radical, Exige 360 and a few other things I figured I had no chance of staying anywhere near.

A chap I know with a very similar setup to me reckoned his friend put in a 2:48 at Spa in his car.

In Summary - I found mine perfect for the road/track car criteria, it's still fast as hell despite it's flaws. What I would ask is, if the M3 is too heavy for that work, what would the alternatives be?
Thanks for taking the time for such a detailed response thumbup

To be honest I've pretty much got my heart set on one, so I suppose I'll see how I get on.

Improved fluid is a given and is so cheap it doesn't make sense not to, potentially uprated pads, but beyond that I can't see myself ever being able to justify spending four figures on discs/suspension etc as realistically I don't do enough days to make use of it.

mpit

373 posts

169 months

Thursday 21st April 2016
quotequote all
shaunroche said:
Enjoyed watching that Mike! I was in the Black A45 Amg and the best I managed up Kemmel was 132mph so in trying to see where I was loosing time, that shows that braking into ER and taking it too slow, robs you of tons of momentum...lost time at Pouhon (didn't like the negative camber!) and got faster going through Blanchimont but couldn't help braking at the two little bollards on the right just before it, much to the disgust of my missus! smile

Speed generally wasn't a problem but braking was generally too soon and too hard.

Don't mind admitting my frailties and so must go out with someone who knows what is what and where!

Cheers for posting, enjoyed it and it's given me something to aim at! smile
Yeah, I think it's critical to get ER right for a decent time - the run you get off it has a huge impact on your run up Kemmel.

I don't think a dab of the brakes for B2 is too impactful - the trouble is, if you don't brake and you get it even slightly wrong, you're using the run off and going over the back of those curbs at speed isn't very much fun at all!

Did you get any tuition?


Phateuk said:
Thanks for taking the time for such a detailed response thumbup

To be honest I've pretty much got my heart set on one, so I suppose I'll see how I get on.

Improved fluid is a given and is so cheap it doesn't make sense not to, potentially uprated pads, but beyond that I can't see myself ever being able to justify spending four figures on discs/suspension etc as realistically I don't do enough days to make use of it.
I think with high temp fluid (RBF660 / SRF?) and some decent endurance pads, they're probably not too bad. Just make sure you do front and rear pads!

I also think EDC should be high priority if you're tracking, too.



Edited by mpit on Thursday 21st April 14:30

Phateuk

750 posts

136 months

Thursday 21st April 2016
quotequote all
mpit said:
I think with high temp fluid (RBF660 / SRF?) and some decent endurance pads, they're probably not too bad. Just make sure you do front and rear pads!

I also think EDC should be high priority if you're tracking, too.



Edited by mpit on Thursday 21st April 14:30
Funny you mention that! That's the one thing I'm undecided on, I've read countless posts online. People who have it seem to say it's essential, those that don't say the passive dampers are fine. There are a few who have owned both and seem to say passive is decent enough. confused

A house move is on the horizon which is limiting my budget to the lower end of the market <£25 so I'm quite restricted to the various options. The majority of cars within budget tend to fall into one of these categories:
manual, 09+ lci, non-edc
dct, pre lci, non-edc
manual, pre lci, edc
manual, pre lci, non-edc, extra goodies like logic 7 sound

Having opted not to have the adaptive dampers on the m135i - I found the passive ones perfectly fine, much more supple on local bumpy roads than the E89 Z4C it replaced, yet wasn't rolling around like a boat in the bends.

Given my recent much shorter commute with no city traffic crawling I'm not against returning to a manual, so the edc pretty much swings it between an early car and an lci.. scratchchin

mpit

373 posts

169 months

Thursday 21st April 2016
quotequote all
It's a tough one.

I'd probably choose DCT over EDC as I've yet to find a 'nice' BMW manual box.

What the EDC gives you is a means to firm up the suspension even more for when you're on track rather than being more comfortable on the road.

I wouldn't worry about LCI - it's just a set of lights that you can buy separately.

I would be keen on the updated CIC iDrive, though - the old CCC stuff is awful, although iDrive can be retrofitted.

Phateuk

750 posts

136 months

Thursday 21st April 2016
quotequote all
mpit said:
It's a tough one.

I'd probably choose DCT over EDC as I've yet to find a 'nice' BMW manual box.

What the EDC gives you is a means to firm up the suspension even more for when you're on track rather than being more comfortable on the road.

I wouldn't worry about LCI - it's just a set of lights that you can buy separately.

I would be keen on the updated CIC iDrive, though - the old CCC stuff is awful, although iDrive can be retrofitted.
RE lci: I was implying models with the updated iDrive, the led lights etc are irrelevant to me as well smile

From reviews the manual in this is supposed to be pretty decent, either way it's something I can judge from a test drive. I would imagine EDC vs non-edc on a short test drive wouldn't seem much different (although I could be wrong?).

Sadly decent condition DCT, EDC and 09+ iDrive examples seem to be out of budget right now, so it's just deciding where to compromise. It will be a few months before I'll be buying so plenty of time to contemplate, and possibly benefit from some depreciation.

shaunroche

208 posts

145 months

Thursday 21st April 2016
quotequote all
Yeah, I think it's critical to get ER right for a decent time - the run you get off it has a huge impact on your run up Kemmel.

I don't think a dab of the brakes for B2 is too impactful - the trouble is, if you don't brake and you get it even slightly wrong, you're using the run off and going over the back of those curbs at speed isn't very much fun at all!

Did you get any tuition?




I don't think the braking was doing anything at B2....I just think I was comforting myself by touching the pedal and there was no need for it!

As counter productive as it sounds, I didn't get any tuition - it was my first time on track in the 'Merc and just I wanted to get some laps under my belt in the morning not having had much time in the car (it's only 6 weeks old) - I was baulked a few times by a radical on a number of laps...don't think it was deliberate, just not looking in his mirrors and I got too annoyed so stopped going out and left at about 14:30 so didn't get the chance in the end!

Feel an idiot now! smile

mpit

373 posts

169 months

Thursday 21st April 2016
quotequote all
I sat behind the Caterham and Radical that were together for a few laps later in the day - they weren't very willing to facilitate me passing, but I figured that with cars like that they might know what they're doing so decided to observe for a few laps.

When they came in, I managed to start catching some of the cars I let through while following them, I guess I expected them to be a bit faster than that!

How come you left so early? I was broken at the end of the day, but I didn't want it to end biggrin

Wh00sher

1,582 posts

217 months

Saturday 23rd April 2016
quotequote all
The fast corners, like ER are so important for a decent laptime. I was usually braking from around 130 and tended to slow a little too much to around 100 VMin. My quickest was 107, which felt fine and just showed I should have been going quicker the rest of the time. whistle A good run through ER saw me touching 144 just before braking at the top of Kemmel.


Same for B2, I was approaching at just over 135 but it`s easy to slow too much. Best VMin was 122 and that was fine but other laps I was slowing far too much to 115 or so. Saying that, when I did carry more speed through B2, I outbraked myself for the chicane

I find it difficult to judge how much speed to drop on the very quick corners like those. I often slow a little too much and just lose time all the way down the following straight. I tend to exit the corner thinking "I should have carried more speed through there.." but the next lap I do it again laugh Looking at the PBox data afterwards just confirms it as you can see the speed being lost.

It`s a bloody great circuit though isn`t it and one I suspect it`ll take time to get the lap where you string it all together without any mistakes

shim

2,050 posts

207 months

Saturday 23rd April 2016
quotequote all
I don't think your Vmin at ER has that much bearing on a lap time.

Effectively there are two corners there with ER and Radillon. Your Vmin is related to the old pit straight braking and turning so the faster Vmin means the lesser time lost in this section.

After that you have section on Radillon that is balanced before most cars can get fully on the throttle. This is the effective start of the new sector and No matter what you Vmin at ER you can normally still make the next sector up to Les Combes work the same or even better (as you have entered it in control and can get in power early.

Interesting bit of track really

shaunroche

208 posts

145 months

Tuesday 26th April 2016
quotequote all
mpit said:
I sat behind the Caterham and Radical that were together for a few laps later in the day - they weren't very willing to facilitate me passing, but I figured that with cars like that they might know what they're doing so decided to observe for a few laps.

When they came in, I managed to start catching some of the cars I let through while following them, I guess I expected them to be a bit faster than that!

How come you left so early? I was broken at the end of the day, but I didn't want it to end biggrin
Yep, that was them!

As I said, I've not had the car long and the tyres are std P Zero's and I was starting to get a pretty strong vibration. At the time, I wasn't sure if it was the tyres or I'd over stressed the brakes. Thinking it was the latter, I decided to call it a day.

I'm sure now it was the tyres and have resolved to get a set of decent Michelins or something for track days....I was also getting very agressive due to being blocked a couple of times by that pair and my mood wasn't improving!

Sitting here now, I wish I'd just had a break and gone back out again!

Ps - I notice your Cam was giving your speed through corners and Vmax, data logging etc....what system is that?...think I'd like one of those!



Edited by shaunroche on Tuesday 26th April 11:57

BobToc

1,768 posts

116 months

Tuesday 26th April 2016
quotequote all
How many laps are people doing at a time? I've had a couple of goes in an '80s car and only do 4 flying laps at a time with about 30mins gap to cool down. Is that being too conservative?

iguana

7,020 posts

259 months

Tuesday 26th April 2016
quotequote all
BobToc said:
How many laps are people doing at a time? I've had a couple of goes in an '80s car and only do 4 flying laps at a time with about 30mins gap to cool down. Is that being too conservative?
Don't really count the laps, but divided by time 30-45 mins- 10-15 ish laps a session

mpit

373 posts

169 months

Wednesday 27th April 2016
quotequote all
Data logging is via Harry's Lap Timer - an app for your phone.

As for sessions, I try and keep mine down to 15-20 minutes + cool down.

I leave it a minimum of 20 mins before going out again, sometimes a bit longer.

Pereldh

536 posts

111 months

Monday 21st August 2017
quotequote all
Just found this thread.

Can anybody advice on upcoming trackdays at Spa this sept/oct..?

Reading up all the pages I realize my 3.15 laptime in 2014 in my old Fiat Coupe '98 (roadtires) wasn't totally st.

I plan to go in my BMW Z4M Coupe which may be faster in many places except in ER where it definately will be scarier...

stradman

81 posts

194 months

Monday 9th October 2017
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There are couple more track days at Spa this month before season comes to an end. I might be going end of this month.
Quite pleased with my last visit there about a couple of weeks ago. Did a 2:38 despite fluffing a gear. Not bad for only my second time there with the car. Still more time left on the table. Maybe 2:35 at push....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhZXLvk1-Zo&t=...

Edited by stradman on Tuesday 10th October 00:03