Making a key worker redundant
Discussion
selwonk said:
...So, who else can we turn to? We've gratefully accepted all the advice in this thread and ACAS agrees with pretty much everything above. Neither of us has been made redundant before. We have read the statutory obligations in respect of redundancy, but it doesn't seem to be worth the paper it's written on.
We're not stupid people. We're just trying to carefully thread our way through a tricky situation!
There are people who specialise in giving advice about stuff to other people . Those adviser people have trained to give that advice. They are insured against the effects of giving wrong advice. Those people have bills to pay, so they tend to charge for their advice. I assume that everyone else in every other job works for free, but those adviser type people are quirky and ask for payment for doing their jobs. Weird, I know. We're not stupid people. We're just trying to carefully thread our way through a tricky situation!
The statutory obligations are worth more than the paper they are written on. Free advice on the net may be worth what you pay for it.
My recommendation, at a modest rate (and it's not me, I am very expensive and only work on referrals) is Marty Byrne at Oxford Employment law.
Agree with that! ACAS are useless.
The situation you described in your OP was pretty much exactly what happened to me a number of years ago, called into a meeting, told I no longer had a job because the business couldn't afford me.
I left a month later after sorting out what was due contractually, then I started a claim for unfair dismissal. I took the 'couldn't afford me' argument to pieces, because it was rubbish, but I was able to support it with evidence that at the same time they were employing someone else part-time to do my job and they'd just taken that person on to do another role as well. I argued that other staff should have been included in the redundancy pool because I could do their tasks and, obviously, that no process had been followed. I argued that if a process had been followed I wouldn't have been made redundant.
This dragged on to the point where I had instructed a Barrister ready for Tribunal, they still hadn't seen a solicitor. As soon as they did they agreed a settlement with me to avoid the Tribunal.
Perhaps the difference with your situation is that I was able to argue that money wasn't the reason behind the 'redundancy', there was a lot of internal politics at play and I had a load of evidence to support that as well as being able to refute the financial argument.
Was all very stressful but I did pretty much get to spend 8 months mountain biking in the Lakes on full pay before starting a much better job.
The situation you described in your OP was pretty much exactly what happened to me a number of years ago, called into a meeting, told I no longer had a job because the business couldn't afford me.
I left a month later after sorting out what was due contractually, then I started a claim for unfair dismissal. I took the 'couldn't afford me' argument to pieces, because it was rubbish, but I was able to support it with evidence that at the same time they were employing someone else part-time to do my job and they'd just taken that person on to do another role as well. I argued that other staff should have been included in the redundancy pool because I could do their tasks and, obviously, that no process had been followed. I argued that if a process had been followed I wouldn't have been made redundant.
This dragged on to the point where I had instructed a Barrister ready for Tribunal, they still hadn't seen a solicitor. As soon as they did they agreed a settlement with me to avoid the Tribunal.
Perhaps the difference with your situation is that I was able to argue that money wasn't the reason behind the 'redundancy', there was a lot of internal politics at play and I had a load of evidence to support that as well as being able to refute the financial argument.
Was all very stressful but I did pretty much get to spend 8 months mountain biking in the Lakes on full pay before starting a much better job.
Breadvan72 said:
There are people who specialise in giving advice about stuff to other people . Those adviser people have trained to give that advice. They are insured against the effects of giving wrong advice. Those people have bills to pay, so they tend to charge for their advice. I assume that everyone else in every other job works for free, but those adviser type people are quirky and ask for payment for doing their jobs. Weird, I know.
The statutory obligations are worth more than the paper they are written on. Free advice on the net may be worth what you pay for it.
My recommendation, at a modest rate (and it's not me, I am very expensive and only work on referrals) is Marty Byrne at Oxford Employment law.
My apologies; I've clearly rubbed you up the wrong way but I'm not sure how. We are very grateful for all the responses in the thread. The statutory obligations are worth more than the paper they are written on. Free advice on the net may be worth what you pay for it.
My recommendation, at a modest rate (and it's not me, I am very expensive and only work on referrals) is Marty Byrne at Oxford Employment law.
No, you haven't rubbed me up the wrong way at all. I am always grumpy with everyone - it's my online schtick. In real life I am rarely grumpy. Breadvan 72 is a fictitious person who is very horrible and annoying. The real me is more nuanced.
The serious point that I am making is that there are sources of advice that are better than the useless ACAS and the risky internet freebie. CABs vary - some good, some dire (the good ones often have a tame lawyer pro bono-ing once a week or so). But if you want reliable advice from someone insured, you may have to pay for that advice. Do not go to Joe High Street, go to Joe Specialist.
I have a general grump that people seem to assume that expertise should always be available for free. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, architects, etc. - charging for their skills? How very dare they! This may be part of the general C21 trend to diss expertise in all its forms.
The serious point that I am making is that there are sources of advice that are better than the useless ACAS and the risky internet freebie. CABs vary - some good, some dire (the good ones often have a tame lawyer pro bono-ing once a week or so). But if you want reliable advice from someone insured, you may have to pay for that advice. Do not go to Joe High Street, go to Joe Specialist.
I have a general grump that people seem to assume that expertise should always be available for free. Doctors, lawyers, accountants, engineers, architects, etc. - charging for their skills? How very dare they! This may be part of the general C21 trend to diss expertise in all its forms.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 18th May 10:46
I certainly don't "...diss expertise in all its forms". I haven't asked for anybody's expertise for free; I am quite happy to pay for professional services. What I have done is asked questions and sought opinion. We've taken it all on board and it's been very useful.
We have also taken opinion from an employment specialist. They offered their expert opinion, very briefly, for free. They concur with the opinion in this thread; any legal proceedings would be throwing good money after bad.
We also spoke to ACAS as we didn't know any better; we don't have any experience of employment matters above and beyond being employees. My mistake, clearly.
I hoped that my updates would demonstrate that we've moved on from dwelling on the due process and are now focusing on an amicable parting of the ways.
Clearly, I've not succeeded and have made a mistake in seeking more opinion from those with more experience to help prepare for the final meeting on Friday. I'm sorry about that and won't trouble you any further.
Thanks again for all the help that has been provided.
We have also taken opinion from an employment specialist. They offered their expert opinion, very briefly, for free. They concur with the opinion in this thread; any legal proceedings would be throwing good money after bad.
We also spoke to ACAS as we didn't know any better; we don't have any experience of employment matters above and beyond being employees. My mistake, clearly.
I hoped that my updates would demonstrate that we've moved on from dwelling on the due process and are now focusing on an amicable parting of the ways.
Clearly, I've not succeeded and have made a mistake in seeking more opinion from those with more experience to help prepare for the final meeting on Friday. I'm sorry about that and won't trouble you any further.
Thanks again for all the help that has been provided.
selwonk said:
... I haven't asked for anybody's expertise for free ...I
Yep, because starting a thread in a sub forum of PH and presumably seeking more than just bloke in pub comments is not asking for expertise for free. There is nothing necessarily wrong about asking for freebies, and freebies are often available from people who know the stuff. There are a few of those people here. There's also me. I don't know the stuff, but I know how to look it up. It so happens that I quite like doing pro bono stuff, if only because of the chance to be grumpy. It's the "Oh noes, who can we turn to?" bit that seems a tad over stated.Sometimes, people do hire a doctor, lawyer, engineer, whatever. Then they ask the internet if what the adviser said was right. What do they then do if the internet says that the adviser was wrong?
Anyway, just keep negotiating in a sensible way. Have a clear objective in mind, and negotiate towards that. The objective needs to be a financial one, with maybe a reference bolted on, as you don't get vindication, vengeance, closure, therapy, payback and so forth from these situations.
Breadvan72 said:
Yep, because starting a thread in a sub forum of PH and presumably seeking more than just bloke in pub comments is not asking for expertise for free.
It's a shame you see it that way, and calls into question the whole point of an online community if we can't call on other members for help, or compare & contrast that help with advice from different sources. On the same basis, nobody should have the audacity to ask for help when they want to do some work on their own car. After all, there are professionals for that...Breadvan72 said:
Anyway, just keep negotiating in a sensible way. Have a clear objective in mind, and negotiate towards that. The objective needs to be a financial one, with maybe a reference bolted on, as you don't get vindication, vengeance, closure, therapy, payback and so forth from these situations.
Thank you; this is exactly what we are doing with some guidance and additional information from a variety of different sources, some qualified, some not.Thanks again.
We are at cross purposes. There is nothing wrong with asking for help online. Suggesting that there is no other help available seemed to me a bit over the top. There is also a tendency (not yours) for people to keep asking the same question until someone tells them the answer that they wish to hear.
In any event, it is often worth adding to the free advice the point that if you are dealing with something non trivial, there is no substitute for real advice. Beef about a fifty quid parking ticket? Ask the internet. Beef about losing a job? Maybe ask the internet, but rely on a real adviser.
Thus: "you can fix your car's timing in the following way, but if in doubt get a mechanic to fix it."
In any event, it is often worth adding to the free advice the point that if you are dealing with something non trivial, there is no substitute for real advice. Beef about a fifty quid parking ticket? Ask the internet. Beef about losing a job? Maybe ask the internet, but rely on a real adviser.
Thus: "you can fix your car's timing in the following way, but if in doubt get a mechanic to fix it."
Breadvan72 said:
We are at cross purposes. There is nothing wrong with asking for help online. Suggesting that there is no other help available seemed to me a bit over the top.
My exasperation was based on being told they we were basically stupid for speaking to ACAS. It is only from experience that can we reach the correct conclusions in these matters. We are doing what we think is right under a great deal of pressure and don't have that experience to bring to bear. We could, of course, employ the services of an employment specialist and not ask questions of ACAS or randomers on the Internet. The general mood of the thread suggested that this would be a waste of money and that we should cut our losses.Breadvan72 said:
There is also a tendency (not yours) for people to keep asking the same question until someone tells them the answer that they wish to hear.
That I agree with wholeheartedly. And no; it's not my intention to flounce off because I've not been able to convince you all that you are wrong when you clearly aren't!Breadvan72 said:
In any event, it is often worth adding to the free advice the point that if you are dealing with something non-trivial, there is no substitute for real advice. Beef about a fifty quid parking ticket? Ask the internet. Beef about losing a job? Maybe ask the internet, but rely on a real adviser.
Can't argue with that, but we don't think it's worth it. We'd love to hand this over to a solicitor to deal with for us, but what would be the point? It would be good money after bad. On the other hand, we had our wills drawn up recently. We could have done it ourselves, but time was of no great importance and, whilst the fees were not cheap, the estate is worth a great deal more than the redundancy package at stake presently. In those circumstances, we were very happy to pay the solicitor's fees.
Does that mean that we couldn't ask questions on the Internet about how a will is drawn up in the meantime, or even how to get the best value from the solicitor? I would hope not.
Breadvan72 said:
Thus: "you can fix your car's timing in the following way, but if in doubt get a mechanic to fix it."
Again, I take your point completely, but I'd also add that I could probably change the disks and pads on my car, but if I was in any doubt, I'd ask my dad, even though he's not a mechanic. ;-)I don't want to keep on batting stuff back and forwards Breadvan because I fear that I might begin to appear churlish. Nor do I wish to be seen to be desperate to get the final word.
I am, as I have plainly stated above, extremely grateful for the advice. Faced with the same sort of situation in the future would I call on the collective PistonHeads wisdom first before seeking the services of a professional? I'm not sure now if I'm honest.
I do promise, however, to let you know the outcome tomorrow.
Thanks again.
It is my fault for being a curmudgeon, which I am, or at least pretend to be when posting here. I hope you can score a deal. You could at least intimate that procedural cock ups could be invoked against the employer, but there may be a bluffing battle.
A general point is that ACAS staff are not really there to act as legal advisers for citizens, and to the extent that they try to be such advisers they tend to be rubbish advisers. This is not widely realised, so it is not stupid to consult ACAS, but doing so is usually pointless. ACAS are often useless in individual cases. They can sometimes be useful in trade union vs employer disputes. Whether trade unions will be banned in a year or two remains to be seen.
Employment Law used to be called The Law of Master and Servant. TLOMAS changed its name in the 1970s, first becoming Labour Law and then becoming Employment Law. Industrial tribunals became employment tribunals. For Employment Law, a retro name change may be on the way, but we shall see.
A general point is that ACAS staff are not really there to act as legal advisers for citizens, and to the extent that they try to be such advisers they tend to be rubbish advisers. This is not widely realised, so it is not stupid to consult ACAS, but doing so is usually pointless. ACAS are often useless in individual cases. They can sometimes be useful in trade union vs employer disputes. Whether trade unions will be banned in a year or two remains to be seen.
Employment Law used to be called The Law of Master and Servant. TLOMAS changed its name in the 1970s, first becoming Labour Law and then becoming Employment Law. Industrial tribunals became employment tribunals. For Employment Law, a retro name change may be on the way, but we shall see.
OK.
As promised, one final update...
She had the last redundancy meeting today. They have not drawn up any redundancy figures.
They have looked at her payroll history to try to calculate the redundancy payment and her hours fluctuated. For example, at month end or when the VAT return is due, she works longer hours. This seems to have confused them and they can't work out the calculation and will now pay their accountants to do it for them. They might get them today; more than likely it will be some time next week.
And the final kick in the teeth? One of the Directors has, in a roundabout way, accused her of payroll fraud. She has suggested that my wife has billed them for hours she hasn't worked.
At times when there is a lot of work to be completed, such as month/year end, my wife regularly works during the evenings or on weekends. It's unavoidable; if she didn't do this she wouldn't be able to cope with her workload during normal office hours. She even does weekly payroll on a Friday via a remote connection when we go away on holiday rather than leaving it to other staff to have to deal with.
And, naturally, she bills them for the hours she works. And the rate she bills those hours at? Her normal hourly rate, not even an overtime rate. She has done this through her six years with the firm without it ever being questioned.
As you might imagine, I'm absolutely raging. I would gladly pay an employment specialist to punish them even it meant throwing good money after bad, but my poor wife is so upset and stressed out by it all that she just wants to take whatever redundancy package is offered and walk away. It goes against my nature to let anything like this go, but I absolutely have to respect that decision, as much as it might stick in the craw.
We also still do not know when to expect the redundancy payment, but I imagine it will be at the end of the 5 week notice period. They have agreed that she does not have to work the notice period.
So, I'd like to say all's well that ends well, but not this time. My own feeling is that they are so embarrassed about having to make her redundant, and cocking up the process from start to finish, that by portraying her as the villain of the piece it makes them feel better about themselves.
And, finally, something I didn't want to mention in case her employer's were reading this thread, but now will not make a jot of difference...
About six weeks ago my 14-year-old daughter fell off a horse and broke her femur. She has a cast from arse to ankle. My wife, whilst dealing with everything at work, has also had to cope with seeing our awesome, active, teenage daughter reduced to someone who needs help on & off the toilet, requires assistance washing & dressing, has to be educated at home and is thoroughly miserable because she can't spend time with her beloved horses. And yes, her employers were well aware of the situation.
Thanks again for all the help and guidance. It's very much appreciated. I'm going to put thoughts of VBRJ and SHILJ* to one side and have a stiff drink tonight!
As promised, one final update...
She had the last redundancy meeting today. They have not drawn up any redundancy figures.
They have looked at her payroll history to try to calculate the redundancy payment and her hours fluctuated. For example, at month end or when the VAT return is due, she works longer hours. This seems to have confused them and they can't work out the calculation and will now pay their accountants to do it for them. They might get them today; more than likely it will be some time next week.
And the final kick in the teeth? One of the Directors has, in a roundabout way, accused her of payroll fraud. She has suggested that my wife has billed them for hours she hasn't worked.
At times when there is a lot of work to be completed, such as month/year end, my wife regularly works during the evenings or on weekends. It's unavoidable; if she didn't do this she wouldn't be able to cope with her workload during normal office hours. She even does weekly payroll on a Friday via a remote connection when we go away on holiday rather than leaving it to other staff to have to deal with.
And, naturally, she bills them for the hours she works. And the rate she bills those hours at? Her normal hourly rate, not even an overtime rate. She has done this through her six years with the firm without it ever being questioned.
As you might imagine, I'm absolutely raging. I would gladly pay an employment specialist to punish them even it meant throwing good money after bad, but my poor wife is so upset and stressed out by it all that she just wants to take whatever redundancy package is offered and walk away. It goes against my nature to let anything like this go, but I absolutely have to respect that decision, as much as it might stick in the craw.
We also still do not know when to expect the redundancy payment, but I imagine it will be at the end of the 5 week notice period. They have agreed that she does not have to work the notice period.
So, I'd like to say all's well that ends well, but not this time. My own feeling is that they are so embarrassed about having to make her redundant, and cocking up the process from start to finish, that by portraying her as the villain of the piece it makes them feel better about themselves.
And, finally, something I didn't want to mention in case her employer's were reading this thread, but now will not make a jot of difference...
About six weeks ago my 14-year-old daughter fell off a horse and broke her femur. She has a cast from arse to ankle. My wife, whilst dealing with everything at work, has also had to cope with seeing our awesome, active, teenage daughter reduced to someone who needs help on & off the toilet, requires assistance washing & dressing, has to be educated at home and is thoroughly miserable because she can't spend time with her beloved horses. And yes, her employers were well aware of the situation.
Thanks again for all the help and guidance. It's very much appreciated. I'm going to put thoughts of VBRJ and SHILJ* to one side and have a stiff drink tonight!
- Sausages Hammered Into Lawn Justice.
I am sorry to hear of your daughter's injury, and hope that she will recover in time. No one is a proper equestrian who has not fallen off three times and been kicked or bitten twice. My riding instructrix was bionic - she was mostly made of metal, and this did not indicate that she was no good. Serious back country off-piste skiing, road motorbiking, and aerobatic light aircraft flying are all safer than horse riding.
Take your time re the redundancy. Do not agree anything fast. You could always string them along a bit or have a pop at them in due course . You may wish to press for a written withdrawal of and apology for the slur re over-billing. You may wish to demand an assurance that no such allegation will be made to anyone in future.
Maybe talk to Marty Byrne at Oxford Employment Law, or David Ludlow at Barlow Robbins.
One reason for having a representative is that he or she can do the talking for you, be it quiet or shouty. You need not get riled up, if you have someone paid to be calm, or to pretend to be riled, as the occasion demands.
Take your time re the redundancy. Do not agree anything fast. You could always string them along a bit or have a pop at them in due course . You may wish to press for a written withdrawal of and apology for the slur re over-billing. You may wish to demand an assurance that no such allegation will be made to anyone in future.
Maybe talk to Marty Byrne at Oxford Employment Law, or David Ludlow at Barlow Robbins.
One reason for having a representative is that he or she can do the talking for you, be it quiet or shouty. You need not get riled up, if you have someone paid to be calm, or to pretend to be riled, as the occasion demands.
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 19th May 16:26
Thanks again BV.
I had suggested that we pay for a solicitor to handle the rest of the redundancy process for her, but she doesn't want that. She just wants to step away from what is a completely s
tty situation and move on. I've kept a note of the firms you've suggested in case the situation worsens dramatically or she feels differently. It does feel like we're giving up, but there is more at stake than the redundancy payment. We're just holding our nerve now.
On a positive note, she now knows that she will never have to meet them face to face again. They were suggesting yet another meeting, but have agreed that everything has now gone too far and called that off.
As for the slur, I doubt they would have the audacity to repeat it outside of the meeting. We'll keep our ears to the ground but my gut feeling is that it was an off the cuff remark.
As for my daughter, were hoping for good news from the hospital on Monday. She needs to be back on her feet ASAP; she wants to be a bloody jockey!
Cheers.
I had suggested that we pay for a solicitor to handle the rest of the redundancy process for her, but she doesn't want that. She just wants to step away from what is a completely s
tty situation and move on. I've kept a note of the firms you've suggested in case the situation worsens dramatically or she feels differently. It does feel like we're giving up, but there is more at stake than the redundancy payment. We're just holding our nerve now. On a positive note, she now knows that she will never have to meet them face to face again. They were suggesting yet another meeting, but have agreed that everything has now gone too far and called that off.
As for the slur, I doubt they would have the audacity to repeat it outside of the meeting. We'll keep our ears to the ground but my gut feeling is that it was an off the cuff remark.
As for my daughter, were hoping for good news from the hospital on Monday. She needs to be back on her feet ASAP; she wants to be a bloody jockey!
Cheers.
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