Issues with colleague (performance and mediation)
Discussion
I would get some thicker skin and not worry about it so much
Employees shout all kind of crap, the lawyer one especially, as has been said this isn't cheap unless its a easy win case
Welcome to the world of employing spoilt idiots, you will get lots more like this over the years!!
But yeah I would take everything they say with a large pinch of bullst and just develop improving them in a firm but fair way
Employees shout all kind of crap, the lawyer one especially, as has been said this isn't cheap unless its a easy win case
Welcome to the world of employing spoilt idiots, you will get lots more like this over the years!!
But yeah I would take everything they say with a large pinch of bullst and just develop improving them in a firm but fair way
TwistingMyMelon said:
I would get some thicker skin and not worry about it so much
Employees shout all kind of crap, the lawyer one especially, as has been said this isn't cheap unless its a easy win case
Welcome to the world of employing spoilt idiots, you will get lots more like this over the years!!
But yeah I would take everything they say with a large pinch of bullst and just develop improving them in a firm but fair way
I hear you, I do have thick skin but the time this has dragged on, coupled with other general life events, has become quite frankly a complete pain in the a*se. Or maybe I'm just a moaner... Employees shout all kind of crap, the lawyer one especially, as has been said this isn't cheap unless its a easy win case
Welcome to the world of employing spoilt idiots, you will get lots more like this over the years!!
But yeah I would take everything they say with a large pinch of bullst and just develop improving them in a firm but fair way
HomesRose said:
randlemarcus said:
Begs the question about why HR havent simply turned round and said "sorry, not working out, here's your P45"
I'd love to know the answer to this too. They are often hindered by:
1. Internal employment lawyers can be very risk averse and they will give any final OK's.
2. Internal process has not been followed at some point, thus making a legitimate case for unfair dismissal.
3. The individual has some lever or a senior supporter (the joys of the partnership model).
Don't forget that HR's role is to protect the business and there are risks from 1. unfair dismissal 2. having a poor performing team member doing client work 3. losing billable hours by tying up people like the OP on internal stuff.
It could also be that the HR team are genuinely crap or understaffed (if it is Big4 firm then there are definitely staffing problems at 2 of them at this point in time).
bga said:
I have no doubt HR would love to sack them.
They are often hindered by:
1. Internal employment lawyers can be very risk averse and they will give any final OK's.
2. Internal process has not been followed at some point, thus making a legitimate case for unfair dismissal.
3. The individual has some lever or a senior supporter (the joys of the partnership model).
Don't forget that HR's role is to protect the business and there are risks from 1. unfair dismissal 2. having a poor performing team member doing client work 3. losing billable hours by tying up people like the OP on internal stuff.
It could also be that the HR team are genuinely crap or understaffed (if it is Big4 firm then there are definitely staffing problems at 2 of them at this point in time).
I'd be inclined to go with point 1, point 3 is definitely not in scope.They are often hindered by:
1. Internal employment lawyers can be very risk averse and they will give any final OK's.
2. Internal process has not been followed at some point, thus making a legitimate case for unfair dismissal.
3. The individual has some lever or a senior supporter (the joys of the partnership model).
Don't forget that HR's role is to protect the business and there are risks from 1. unfair dismissal 2. having a poor performing team member doing client work 3. losing billable hours by tying up people like the OP on internal stuff.
It could also be that the HR team are genuinely crap or understaffed (if it is Big4 firm then there are definitely staffing problems at 2 of them at this point in time).
Interest re your comment on Big 4 HR staffing issues - I tried to PM you but it won't let me as I registered a new account for this thread for fairly obvious reasons.
Thanks.
HomesRose said:
TwistingMyMelon said:
I would get some thicker skin and not worry about it so much
Employees shout all kind of crap, the lawyer one especially, as has been said this isn't cheap unless its a easy win case
Welcome to the world of employing spoilt idiots, you will get lots more like this over the years!!
But yeah I would take everything they say with a large pinch of bullst and just develop improving them in a firm but fair way
I hear you, I do have thick skin but the time this has dragged on, coupled with other general life events, has become quite frankly a complete pain in the a*se. Or maybe I'm just a moaner... Employees shout all kind of crap, the lawyer one especially, as has been said this isn't cheap unless its a easy win case
Welcome to the world of employing spoilt idiots, you will get lots more like this over the years!!
But yeah I would take everything they say with a large pinch of bullst and just develop improving them in a firm but fair way
HomesRose said:
I'd be inclined to go with point 1, point 3 is definitely not in scope.
Interest re your comment on Big 4 HR staffing issues - I tried to PM you but it won't let me as I registered a new account for this thread for fairly obvious reasons.
Thanks.
If you permit messages on your new profile then I'll ping you. Interest re your comment on Big 4 HR staffing issues - I tried to PM you but it won't let me as I registered a new account for this thread for fairly obvious reasons.
Thanks.
She sounds SO entitled, she is a drain on the business' resources in terms of the time she takes to pick up stuff, the bad feeling she's causing, the performance management etc etc. I'd speak to HR about sacking her before the 2 years are up. She sounds like she will continue to be thorn in everyone's side and will be a nightmare to get rid of once she has 2 years continuous employment.
I do hate it when employers treat people badly but this employee is really taking the piss. Sacking her might even be the making of her and make her realise she is the one with the issue not everyone around her.
I do hate it when employers treat people badly but this employee is really taking the piss. Sacking her might even be the making of her and make her realise she is the one with the issue not everyone around her.
elanfan said:
She sounds SO entitled, she is a drain on the business' resources in terms of the time she takes to pick up stuff, the bad feeling she's causing, the performance management etc etc. I'd speak to HR about sacking her before the 2 years are up. She sounds like she will continue to be thorn in everyone's side and will be a nightmare to get rid of once she has 2 years continuous employment.
I do hate it when employers treat people badly but this employee is really taking the piss. Sacking her might even be the making of her and make her realise she is the one with the issue not everyone around her.
Definitely agree.I do hate it when employers treat people badly but this employee is really taking the piss. Sacking her might even be the making of her and make her realise she is the one with the issue not everyone around her.
This person isn't suddenly going to turn into a model employee, whatever happens.
I'm at a loss as to why a company would even begin to pander to this crap from a trainee, who's been with them less than 2 years, who is causing no end of problems for other senior employees.
Crazy.
HomesRose said:
Almost - I work for one of the Big 4 but I'm not in audit (thankfully... )
Ah ok - it's just that your scenario reminded me of my happy days working in audit 20+ years ago. You could get lumbered with any numpty in your team and some could be difficult to manage. However (from what I am told) performance management in Big 4 is usually pretty direct. If they've had feedback from several different line managers I'm surprised the person in question isn't being told some home truths.Three quick questions - what exactly is the mediation expected to accomplish? Are you ever going to work with her again? Are you interested in having a relationship with her? If no to the latter two, I'd simply not engage.
I used to be an ED in a Big Four firm. They do like processes but they are also quite hard-headed and respect hard-headedness in their staff.
I'd not have had a lot of time for a trainee causing problems and I'd have had a lot of sympathy and support for a Manager declining to do this for the sake of HR.
I used to be an ED in a Big Four firm. They do like processes but they are also quite hard-headed and respect hard-headedness in their staff.
I'd not have had a lot of time for a trainee causing problems and I'd have had a lot of sympathy and support for a Manager declining to do this for the sake of HR.
Countdown said:
Ah ok - it's just that your scenario reminded me of my happy days working in audit 20+ years ago. You could get lumbered with any numpty in your team and some could be difficult to manage. However (from what I am told) performance management in Big 4 is usually pretty direct. If they've had feedback from several different line managers I'm surprised the person in question isn't being told some home truths.
Audit really isn't for me! Our team is very stable which is good, but the flip side is you do work with the same people day in and day out and unfortunately in these circumstances, it's making things difficult.You're right, performance management is pretty direct with a view of continually developjng people, but in this case we've all been accused of colluding (under my influence) and effectively providing incorrect feedback. Obviously we are all wrong and this person knows better and is correct...!
psi310398 said:
Three quick questions - what exactly is the mediation expected to accomplish? Are you ever going to work with her again? Are you interested in having a relationship with her? If no to the latter two, I'd simply not engage.
I used to be an ED in a Big Four firm. They do like processes but they are also quite hard-headed and respect hard-headedness in their staff.
I'd not have had a lot of time for a trainee causing problems and I'd have had a lot of sympathy and support for a Manager declining to do this for the sake of HR.
She has requested mediation to mend the so called broken relationship. My genuine feeling is that she's requested it to continue making life tricky for the firm (and us) to try and cling on whilst building a case and also probably hoping I'll decline so that she can try and allege that I'm the problem.I used to be an ED in a Big Four firm. They do like processes but they are also quite hard-headed and respect hard-headedness in their staff.
I'd not have had a lot of time for a trainee causing problems and I'd have had a lot of sympathy and support for a Manager declining to do this for the sake of HR.
Am I ever going to work with her again - if she stays then the likelihood in the long run is no. She will only stay if she comes out of her performance plan with good feedback from enough people and that will not come from me or my close colleagues based on her performance since she went on the plan (which I'd say is worse than ever coupled with a sickly fake and sarcastic attitude). If that happens, it's been agreed that it's best that she works with the people providing good feedback and not our team.
Am I interested in having a relationship with her? Absolutely not. You could argue loosely that we were probably friends when she first joined and I did quite like her, but after the amount of grief she's caused I want nothing to do with her ever again.
Well you've answered your on question with regard to the mediation right there.
Following on from someone else's post above and I know yours are lady bits but I'm wondering whether you are being tested to see if you have the cohonnas for a more senior role. Unpleasant decisions get made all the time, maybe it's your turn? Bypass HR knock on the door of your most senior manager that you dare. Tell him straight about the waste of time this woman is, drain on resources, argumentative moaner etc and that you want her out before she takes root never mind the waste of time mediation will be. Even if you don't get the result you're after you may get a bit more notice taken of you by management.
Do keep us updated
Following on from someone else's post above and I know yours are lady bits but I'm wondering whether you are being tested to see if you have the cohonnas for a more senior role. Unpleasant decisions get made all the time, maybe it's your turn? Bypass HR knock on the door of your most senior manager that you dare. Tell him straight about the waste of time this woman is, drain on resources, argumentative moaner etc and that you want her out before she takes root never mind the waste of time mediation will be. Even if you don't get the result you're after you may get a bit more notice taken of you by management.
Do keep us updated
HomesRose said:
She has requested mediation to mend the so called broken relationship. My genuine feeling is that she's requested it to continue making life tricky for the firm (and us) to try and cling on whilst building a case and also probably hoping I'll decline so that she can try and allege that I'm the problem.
Am I ever going to work with her again - if she stays then the likelihood in the long run is no. She will only stay if she comes out of her performance plan with good feedback from enough people and that will not come from me or my close colleagues based on her performance since she went on the plan (which I'd say is worse than ever coupled with a sickly fake and sarcastic attitude). If that happens, it's been agreed that it's best that she works with the people providing good feedback and not our team.
Am I interested in having a relationship with her? Absolutely not. You could argue loosely that we were probably friends when she first joined and I did quite like her, but after the amount of grief she's caused I want nothing to do with her ever again.
Well HomesRose,Am I ever going to work with her again - if she stays then the likelihood in the long run is no. She will only stay if she comes out of her performance plan with good feedback from enough people and that will not come from me or my close colleagues based on her performance since she went on the plan (which I'd say is worse than ever coupled with a sickly fake and sarcastic attitude). If that happens, it's been agreed that it's best that she works with the people providing good feedback and not our team.
Am I interested in having a relationship with her? Absolutely not. You could argue loosely that we were probably friends when she first joined and I did quite like her, but after the amount of grief she's caused I want nothing to do with her ever again.
Your decision. I suspect that you have answered your own question here at least from a business perspective. I think you are slightly worried about her going to a tribunal and also, just possibly, that you are not being nice enough. (This is honest advice and I hope I'm not being patronising.)
- You don't need the therapy, she does.
- HR wants a quiet life. You don't have to help them. They are paid to deal with this kind of thing. Hell, they probably recruited her!
- You know, as well as I do, in a Big Four firm what exactly is mandatory (think what happens if you don't complete certain risk assessments etc) and what is strongly encouraged because no bones are made about it (all that unpaid career development of other people stuff).
- Your management clearly could not give two hoots about the mediation but the issue is also not important enough to them to waste time arguing with HR about it.
- She may or may not go to tribunal but your firm is already signalling that she, not you, is the problem. If, perchance, they have to stuff her mouth with money to make her go away quietly, they won't blame you. They'll blame Generation Snowflake and mark it down as a cost of doing business.
I think there will be no negative repercussions for you and potentially positive ones.
I've had Managers and Directors wringing their withers over tough decisions and messages to be given, when it is quite clear what is to be done and, yes, it's hard and part of gaining experience but you do come out stronger. It gets worse and lonelier as you gain seniority, but that is what they pay you for.
And, if I can be blunt, when assembling a team to perform an assignment I would/will always look at the pain in the jacksie quotient of all potential members. A person would have to be exceptionally talented to get a berth if he/she were bringing problems with them. Your colleague does not sound like she is in this category.
I don't know where you are in the promotion cycle but remember, too, that promotability assessments in the Big Four are massive exercises in sounding colleagues out, and all your senior colleagues will be asked for their views of candidates. Not sure that being seen to be crisp and decisive at this point will do you much harm.
HTH
P
elanfan said:
Well you've answered your on question with regard to the mediation right there.
Following on from someone else's post above and I know yours are lady bits but I'm wondering whether you are being tested to see if you have the cohonnas for a more senior role. Unpleasant decisions get made all the time, maybe it's your turn? Bypass HR knock on the door of your most senior manager that you dare. Tell him straight about the waste of time this woman is, drain on resources, argumentative moaner etc and that you want her out before she takes root never mind the waste of time mediation will be. Even if you don't get the result you're after you may get a bit more notice taken of you by management.
Do keep us updated
Will do, I'm on holiday for a week so I'll probably be in a more knowledgable position next week as there's an almost daily update or chatter in the team on this subject. Following on from someone else's post above and I know yours are lady bits but I'm wondering whether you are being tested to see if you have the cohonnas for a more senior role. Unpleasant decisions get made all the time, maybe it's your turn? Bypass HR knock on the door of your most senior manager that you dare. Tell him straight about the waste of time this woman is, drain on resources, argumentative moaner etc and that you want her out before she takes root never mind the waste of time mediation will be. Even if you don't get the result you're after you may get a bit more notice taken of you by management.
Do keep us updated
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