Work stress for 5yrs, nothing done - constructive dismissal?
Discussion
Wife is having a very tough time at work and has actually been signed off stress sick for last 3 months.
She had what was supposed to be a 'managing your stress and return to work' meeting this week which was very clearly not what happened and she is now is a worse state than she was when she went in.
We think there is clear grounds for constructive dismissal as her line manager was informed about the situation back in April and has done nothing, even avoiding some fundamental issues and point in this weeks meeting that have been pinpointed in her work stress assessment.
She doesn't need to MTFU, in the last 3month she is better than she has been in the last 5years so, almost back to the woman I fell in love with 18 years ago.
So, anyone else been through this, any legal bids willing to help, advise, talk us/her through the procedure?
Many Thanks.
V.
She had what was supposed to be a 'managing your stress and return to work' meeting this week which was very clearly not what happened and she is now is a worse state than she was when she went in.
We think there is clear grounds for constructive dismissal as her line manager was informed about the situation back in April and has done nothing, even avoiding some fundamental issues and point in this weeks meeting that have been pinpointed in her work stress assessment.
She doesn't need to MTFU, in the last 3month she is better than she has been in the last 5years so, almost back to the woman I fell in love with 18 years ago.
So, anyone else been through this, any legal bids willing to help, advise, talk us/her through the procedure?
Many Thanks.
V.
Because it was a good job, package and terms, she liked the job and people around her and wants to stay there, it's the new (5yr old) reporting structure and the tactics of the line manager that is causing her stress. OH dept have diagnosed 5yrs of work related stress!
Her mental (stress and anxiety) health has deteriorated over the past 2 - 3 years but trust me it has taken something significant for her to realise and accept what we have being saying to her (it's stress). It's a mid level public sector role and there are very clear policies on stress and bullying that have not been followed.
Her mental (stress and anxiety) health has deteriorated over the past 2 - 3 years but trust me it has taken something significant for her to realise and accept what we have being saying to her (it's stress). It's a mid level public sector role and there are very clear policies on stress and bullying that have not been followed.
The public sector is exactly like that in all 7 councils I have subbied for, it takes a certain type to hold down a managerial position there to deal with all the backstabbing, snideness and empire building, she would be better off for her mental health out of it if she isn’t built for it, either a different role or a totally different situation. I take it you are angling for a taxpayer funded payout though?
Don't think it's constructive dismissal as such, I believe it gas be something that is intolerable and essentially you have to walk out not allow it to build for 5 years. If your wife wants out then suggest a compromise agreement. A way towards this might be to raise an official Greivance against her immediate manager and the company.
In my experience management will stick together no matter what even if they are clearly in the wrong. What they won't want is a long drawn out process and further months of sickness. If there's a union get them involved and try and get out on the best terms she can. She will be glad she did though it might not seem like it now. The pressure and stress will lift really quickly and whatever hit you take will be worth it. Then go somewhere where she's appreciated.
In my experience management will stick together no matter what even if they are clearly in the wrong. What they won't want is a long drawn out process and further months of sickness. If there's a union get them involved and try and get out on the best terms she can. She will be glad she did though it might not seem like it now. The pressure and stress will lift really quickly and whatever hit you take will be worth it. Then go somewhere where she's appreciated.
Constructive dismissal can be complicated, and depending on the circumstances may not be the resolution you may be looking for.
Stress is complex and tbh the management team should be looking to understanding the reasons [I believe this sits under H&S].
Depending on the outcome of the meeting, which is not clear from your post OP, depends on your next move. Has there been a letter? What does it say?
Is your wife in the union? who was at the meeting? what was said? what was suggested? Is it bullying? work load? Trouble with all these things is that the instigator of the stress isn't the best person to find the solution and if this was the case then maybe a word in the ear of someone higher might resolve this.
If she wants out then a compromise is the best solution for both parties.
Stress is complex and tbh the management team should be looking to understanding the reasons [I believe this sits under H&S].
Depending on the outcome of the meeting, which is not clear from your post OP, depends on your next move. Has there been a letter? What does it say?
Is your wife in the union? who was at the meeting? what was said? what was suggested? Is it bullying? work load? Trouble with all these things is that the instigator of the stress isn't the best person to find the solution and if this was the case then maybe a word in the ear of someone higher might resolve this.
If she wants out then a compromise is the best solution for both parties.
"Change in reporting structure" sounds like they've got rid of people and the rest are being asked to do more work for the same/less money. It also means that people who knew what to do / how to do it have left/not been replaced and everybody else has to try and figure out what to do.
It can be a vicious circle with more and more people leaving, morale sinking, inexperienced managers being thrown in at the deep end etc etc.
It can be a vicious circle with more and more people leaving, morale sinking, inexperienced managers being thrown in at the deep end etc etc.
Another quickie, I would be a little careful.
1. She had a return to work interview?
2. They recognised it was stress related?
Devil's Advocate - What are they not doing in order to secure / improve her attendance?
Do you have anything at all that they've failed to do?
Suggesting that the meetings they've put in place are not enough, sounds pretty slim.
If she's been suffering for 5 years, I would have expected a huge case file of failed requested, missed meetings, refusal for occupation health, unrealistic special / compassionate leave request denials and so on.
However if she's suffered silently for 5 years and then the employer has offered a stress return to work meeting - I'm not sure what more they could have done??
I always ask - What would the man who own's the wood yard do, if it were one of his employees?
Is she realistic in her appraisal of her employers negligence?
1. She had a return to work interview?
2. They recognised it was stress related?
Devil's Advocate - What are they not doing in order to secure / improve her attendance?
Do you have anything at all that they've failed to do?
Suggesting that the meetings they've put in place are not enough, sounds pretty slim.
If she's been suffering for 5 years, I would have expected a huge case file of failed requested, missed meetings, refusal for occupation health, unrealistic special / compassionate leave request denials and so on.
However if she's suffered silently for 5 years and then the employer has offered a stress return to work meeting - I'm not sure what more they could have done??
I always ask - What would the man who own's the wood yard do, if it were one of his employees?
Is she realistic in her appraisal of her employers negligence?
It sounds simple but the company will need to understand the root causes of the stress before any interventions or plan can be put in place. Typically they won't start doing this when you have just gone off sick but when it becomes a long term period. Of course that means talking and discussing matters with her and perhaps referrals to GP/OH.
The company does not have to implement all the things she may request. After all they may be unreasonable/unachievable/too costly etc. Somebody has to take the lead in this process and typically it is the company. If she doesn't agree or like the suggestions she has to discuss with them and try to find a suitable way forward.
The company does not have to implement all the things she may request. After all they may be unreasonable/unachievable/too costly etc. Somebody has to take the lead in this process and typically it is the company. If she doesn't agree or like the suggestions she has to discuss with them and try to find a suitable way forward.
OldGermanHeaps said:
The public sector is exactly like that in all 7 councils I have subbied for, it takes a certain type to hold down a managerial position there to deal with all the backstabbing, snideness and empire building, she would be better off for her mental health out of it if she isn’t built for it, either a different role or a totally different situation. I take it you are angling for a taxpayer funded payout though?
Having worked in both Private and Public sectors the levels of backstabbing/empire building / snideness are roughly the same IME.One of the benefits of the Public Sector is that there is more protection from bad managers. OTOH one of the downsides is that there is more protection for cr@p employees. Swings and roundabouts.
VEX said:
It's a mid level public sector role and there are very clear policies on stress and bullying that have not been followed.
Then she needs to go to the union and down the grievance process, that's what I did. Also some people are really f
king dumb and paying a solicitor to send a letter to their home address with threats of legal action referencing anti-social behaviour, harassment etc. has worked for me. Sounds like an inexperienced manager, who may well be struggling themselves.
If the package, pay, benefits, work colleagues and the actual work are okay/ enjoyable and a reason to stay (pretty big positives) what precisely are the negatives causing the stress?
Workload (too much or lack of??), poor communication, constantly changing priorities? What things could be put right to reduce the stress? (removing the manager is not a sensible option - as another manager may be under the same pressures and so the same outcome occurs......).
Your wife 'may' need to manage the situation for the manager (for example, stating what is possible in a given time frame, encourage team meetings, producing a weekly list of priorities on a Monday, etc. etc.)
This is a plan she needs to plan and think about in advance of the meeting. You need a clear problem statement, but have potential solutions identified .... nothing worse for a manager than having a list of problems and no solution (although the manager should be able to lead the meeting to find the solutions......)
If the manager is bullying/ harassing then that is a different matter.
Mike
If the package, pay, benefits, work colleagues and the actual work are okay/ enjoyable and a reason to stay (pretty big positives) what precisely are the negatives causing the stress?
Workload (too much or lack of??), poor communication, constantly changing priorities? What things could be put right to reduce the stress? (removing the manager is not a sensible option - as another manager may be under the same pressures and so the same outcome occurs......).
Your wife 'may' need to manage the situation for the manager (for example, stating what is possible in a given time frame, encourage team meetings, producing a weekly list of priorities on a Monday, etc. etc.)
This is a plan she needs to plan and think about in advance of the meeting. You need a clear problem statement, but have potential solutions identified .... nothing worse for a manager than having a list of problems and no solution (although the manager should be able to lead the meeting to find the solutions......)
If the manager is bullying/ harassing then that is a different matter.
Mike
Foliage said:
Also some people are really fking dumb and paying a solicitor to send a letter to their home address with threats of legal action referencing anti-social behaviour, harassment etc. has worked for me.
I'm not sure how any of that applies in the context of the OP. Are you suggesting that the OP's Solicitor should be sending threatening legal-type letters to the Manager's home address?king dumb and paying a solicitor to send a letter to their home address with threats of legal action referencing anti-social behaviour, harassment etc. has worked for me. I'm not an expert in the field but constructive dismissal is a tricky area - basically the employer has to have breached the employee's contract in such a serious way as to entitle that employee to leave without giving notice - that's a big call: your wife will pretty much have to walk out of the building. The 5 year point could be an issue: the employee shouldn't wait too long before resigning.
As others have said, if unionised, it would be worth speaking to a union rep as the unions are generally pretty well organised on this sort of stuff and will probably have a law firm on retainer to offer advice.
Otherwise, just go and see an employment lawyer anyway - even if it's not constructive dismissal, they'll be able to advise if she has any other claims and also map out how to play things with the employer. I'd advise against just going to see a "high street" solicitor who does a bit of everything: employment law is a fiendishly complicated area, so it's worth using a specialist.
As others have said, if unionised, it would be worth speaking to a union rep as the unions are generally pretty well organised on this sort of stuff and will probably have a law firm on retainer to offer advice.
Otherwise, just go and see an employment lawyer anyway - even if it's not constructive dismissal, they'll be able to advise if she has any other claims and also map out how to play things with the employer. I'd advise against just going to see a "high street" solicitor who does a bit of everything: employment law is a fiendishly complicated area, so it's worth using a specialist.
Plus in order to have a claim for constructive dismissal you need to actually leave the job, and have some kind of consequential loss to claim for.
If all you do is walk out, fight an expensive and protracted legal battle and then end up with 12 weeks wages, then it is all a bit stupid.
I am unclear how a re organisation five years ago, leads to stress today. Or why your partner hasn't spoken up before or any of the other things that may have been possible to remedy this situation in the last five years.
However assuming health comes first as it should, then she should listen to the medical advice she receives and resolve the work place issues once she is better.
If all you do is walk out, fight an expensive and protracted legal battle and then end up with 12 weeks wages, then it is all a bit stupid.
I am unclear how a re organisation five years ago, leads to stress today. Or why your partner hasn't spoken up before or any of the other things that may have been possible to remedy this situation in the last five years.
However assuming health comes first as it should, then she should listen to the medical advice she receives and resolve the work place issues once she is better.
OP, from your very general description of the situation I cannot see a case for constructive dismissal. If you can provide some more detail of what it is that you say that the employer has done or is doing that you say amounts to a repudiation of the contract of employment, then I might take a different view.
What is your wife's objective? Stay at the employer? Move on? To what extent are her health problems something that she might have anyway, even if exacerbated by work stress?
If you have financial resources, seek paid and insured legal advice. PM me for some recommended advisers (not me, I don't do direct access work and I don't come here to generate business).
What is your wife's objective? Stay at the employer? Move on? To what extent are her health problems something that she might have anyway, even if exacerbated by work stress?
If you have financial resources, seek paid and insured legal advice. PM me for some recommended advisers (not me, I don't do direct access work and I don't come here to generate business).
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 2nd October 14:13
Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff