Company being taken over
Discussion
I work in IT for a large company that is being taken over due to a quirk of share prices by a smaller one. I am the lead for the Database team, we provision, tune, back up and fix the companies Oracle and SQL Servers globally. I seem to be well regarded and valued having been round databases for years, but no man is an island or irreplaceable.
So, we will be a new company very soon, the new company is fond of outsourcing IT to a third party. I need to know what my position is and what they can do legally, my possibilities are,
Made Redundant - get a few quid (not that much but would keep us for a few months) , get another job, market is fairly buoyant
Find another job and leave, miss out on the few quid, quite like it here so may as well stick it out and wait
Stay with the new company
Get Tupe'd across to the Outsourcer.
In the two latter scenarios, our terms and conditions are protected for one year, so about this time next year they get to renegotiate my contract, that is the bit I am concerned about, what can they negotiate ? is it basically pay and holidays, cant they say you were on this much, you are now on half of that ?
Can they effectively make it difficult to stay as you have lost a load of salary so you have to leave and get something somewhere else and then they dont have to pay you redundancy ?
Obviously its a fluid situation and will use my skills, guile, charm and animal magnetism to ingratiate and make myself invaluable in the meantime but I want to be prepared for the various eventualities.
So, we will be a new company very soon, the new company is fond of outsourcing IT to a third party. I need to know what my position is and what they can do legally, my possibilities are,
Made Redundant - get a few quid (not that much but would keep us for a few months) , get another job, market is fairly buoyant
Find another job and leave, miss out on the few quid, quite like it here so may as well stick it out and wait
Stay with the new company
Get Tupe'd across to the Outsourcer.
In the two latter scenarios, our terms and conditions are protected for one year, so about this time next year they get to renegotiate my contract, that is the bit I am concerned about, what can they negotiate ? is it basically pay and holidays, cant they say you were on this much, you are now on half of that ?
Can they effectively make it difficult to stay as you have lost a load of salary so you have to leave and get something somewhere else and then they dont have to pay you redundancy ?
Obviously its a fluid situation and will use my skills, guile, charm and animal magnetism to ingratiate and make myself invaluable in the meantime but I want to be prepared for the various eventualities.
https://www.gov.uk/transfers-takeovers/transfers-o...
AFAIK TUPE protection is not limited to 1 year. Your "new" employer would need to consult with you on any changes and both parties would need to agree to any changes.
I've been outsourced, agreed measures that meant i gained in some areas but lost in others where my terms could not be met and then tupe'd back as an insource with better terms than I left with.
If the company decide to outsource they may wish to reduce numbers at that point and offer voluntary redundancy.
The other way to look at this would be that if you get outsourced your value and further career prospects may actually increase.
AFAIK TUPE protection is not limited to 1 year. Your "new" employer would need to consult with you on any changes and both parties would need to agree to any changes.
I've been outsourced, agreed measures that meant i gained in some areas but lost in others where my terms could not be met and then tupe'd back as an insource with better terms than I left with.
If the company decide to outsource they may wish to reduce numbers at that point and offer voluntary redundancy.
The other way to look at this would be that if you get outsourced your value and further career prospects may actually increase.
Countdown said:
I'd go with this.
Yeah, trouble is with being the lead and having a stellar Oracle DBA on the team I am comparatively rusty, I am qualified to OCP (Oracle Certified Professional) level but been out of it quite a while hands on wise, still do some but couldn't easily go in as an Oracle DBA without a bit of a refresher, it all comes back so perhaps my plan would be to just get back up to speed. Am more current on SQL Server.J4CKO said:
Made Redundant - get a few quid (not that much but would keep us for a few months) , get another job, market is fairly buoyant
As a regular Oracle user IME decent Oracle DBAs are like gold dust and quite rare or expensive.andburg said:
https://www.gov.uk/transfers-takeovers/transfers-o...
AFAIK TUPE protection is not limited to 1 year. Your "new" employer would need to consult with you on any changes and both parties would need to agree to any changes.
I've been outsourced, agreed measures that meant i gained in some areas but lost in others where my terms could not be met and then tupe'd back as an insource with better terms than I left with.
If the company decide to outsource they may wish to reduce numbers at that point and offer voluntary redundancy.
The other way to look at this would be that if you get outsourced your value and further career prospects may actually increase.
Yeah, its not all fear on my part, have a lot to offer and it pays not to forget that they may actually want me and see me as an asset and not a burden to be got rid of !AFAIK TUPE protection is not limited to 1 year. Your "new" employer would need to consult with you on any changes and both parties would need to agree to any changes.
I've been outsourced, agreed measures that meant i gained in some areas but lost in others where my terms could not be met and then tupe'd back as an insource with better terms than I left with.
If the company decide to outsource they may wish to reduce numbers at that point and offer voluntary redundancy.
The other way to look at this would be that if you get outsourced your value and further career prospects may actually increase.
It is a bit of a bother, am in a similar situation as you.
At least you have a pretty well defined role you can add as another paragraph to your CV...
My role although interesting would look rather wishy-washy as I deal with a quite a random set of systems.
Can only hope it turns out well.
At least you have a pretty well defined role you can add as another paragraph to your CV...
My role although interesting would look rather wishy-washy as I deal with a quite a random set of systems.
Can only hope it turns out well.
Breadvan72 said:
The one year myth is a myth.
In what way ? in that they can do what they want or that they cant regardless of time since the acquisition ?They have said our T's and C's will be protected for a year, I take that as they wont try to drop our salaries for 12 months, then they will probably try but it should be a consultation, not them unilaterally changing anything, which would be a breach of contract.
It may well be fine but I want to be 100 percent ready in case of any changes being made and know my legal standpoint, employers and their HR depts can make stuff seem official when it is actually illegal, seen it before, it doesnt mean that if it is on headed paper and comes from a senior manager that it is any more valid than me writing some nonsense on a post it note.
Not going to be a dick about it and am looking on this change as positive but I dont intend to let myself be manipulated or coerced into something I dont want to happen.
Your terms are protected without limit of time. A dismissal for a refusal to accept changes in terms could only be fair if made for an economic, technical, or organisational reason that entails a change in the workforce (this is the ETO defence). It can be easier for an employer to argue an ETO defence when time has elapsed since the transfer, but the idea of a year being the magic period has no clear foundation in the law.
Whilst companies are supposed to follow the law in these cases, many of them don't. That's why people sign compromise agreements, or whatever the latest name for them is. Statutory redundancy is a pitiful sum. What they do try to do is dress everything up so that it looks like they've followed the rules, but they never do.
Apparently redundancy terms set some kind of precedent, so if the company was paying 1 month per year of service 11 months ago when they last made a bunch of people redundant, then they have to pay that to the next lot. However, I have definitely seen redundancy terms change over time, so that might just be a myth.
Look after yourself and your own interests. Keep your ear to the ground. Try to figure out the culture of the new combined firm. I've been through several acquisitions on both sides of the deal, and the acquiring company's IT team isn't always the one that ends up running the show, particularly in a global environment. You'll know when it's time to jump ship, and if they're taking requests for voluntary redundancy at that time then all the better.
Then, go contracting.
Apparently redundancy terms set some kind of precedent, so if the company was paying 1 month per year of service 11 months ago when they last made a bunch of people redundant, then they have to pay that to the next lot. However, I have definitely seen redundancy terms change over time, so that might just be a myth.
Look after yourself and your own interests. Keep your ear to the ground. Try to figure out the culture of the new combined firm. I've been through several acquisitions on both sides of the deal, and the acquiring company's IT team isn't always the one that ends up running the show, particularly in a global environment. You'll know when it's time to jump ship, and if they're taking requests for voluntary redundancy at that time then all the better.
Then, go contracting.
omniflow said:
Whilst companies are supposed to follow the law in these cases, many of them don't. That's why people sign compromise agreements, or whatever the latest name for them is. Statutory redundancy is a pitiful sum. What they do try to do is dress everything up so that it looks like they've followed the rules, but they never do.
Apparently redundancy terms set some kind of precedent, so if the company was paying 1 month per year of service 11 months ago when they last made a bunch of people redundant, then they have to pay that to the next lot. However, I have definitely seen redundancy terms change over time, so that might just be a myth.
Look after yourself and your own interests. Keep your ear to the ground. Try to figure out the culture of the new combined firm. I've been through several acquisitions on both sides of the deal, and the acquiring company's IT team isn't always the one that ends up running the show, particularly in a global environment. You'll know when it's time to jump ship, and if they're taking requests for voluntary redundancy at that time then all the better.
Then, go contracting.
Cheers, I ended up here as a contractor ten years ago, liked it and got offered a decent deal to stay as a permie.Apparently redundancy terms set some kind of precedent, so if the company was paying 1 month per year of service 11 months ago when they last made a bunch of people redundant, then they have to pay that to the next lot. However, I have definitely seen redundancy terms change over time, so that might just be a myth.
Look after yourself and your own interests. Keep your ear to the ground. Try to figure out the culture of the new combined firm. I've been through several acquisitions on both sides of the deal, and the acquiring company's IT team isn't always the one that ends up running the show, particularly in a global environment. You'll know when it's time to jump ship, and if they're taking requests for voluntary redundancy at that time then all the better.
Then, go contracting.
The acquiring company is smaller and anecdotally less advanced IT wise, so they seem to be open to adopting our methods, I mean, why wouldnt you if its the best way to do things ? early days, for me its whether they outsource the DB provision, the rank and file daily DB tasks and problem resolution is one thing but there is other stuff around strategy, consolidation, adopting cloud offerings, licensing etc that doesnt really lend itself to outsourcing, also, I am SC cleared and occasionally have to work on secure environments so that will need to be covered, that really doesnt fit with an outsourcing model easily.
omniflow said:
Whilst companies are supposed to follow the law in these cases, many of them don't. That's why people sign compromise agreements, or whatever the latest name for them is. ...
Doing deals to buy out rights is following the law, not breaking it. Breaking the law is when the employer rides roughshod over the employees' rights, and the employees are too poor and/or inarticulate and/or unrepresented to do anything about it. This does happen a fair bit, regrettably.Breadvan72 said:
This change could be a positive opportunity for you, especially if you can lead a charge towards getting more secret squirrel work.
Yeah, however, I do like it where I am, the advantages are it doesnt pay too badly, it is nearby, can work from home and a good bunch of people, also I feel appreciated.So, if I have to jump ship, I will but currently feel like I want to see how things pan out and am pretty positive and I am a great believer that you make your own luck to a certain extent, get in, see how the land lies and make myself indispensable. The redundancy wouldnt be huge but I would be loathe to jump ship without it, plus there is that feeling that if you leave and hate the next job you would regret moving, but if you have to go then it isnt so bad with regards to self recriminations !
In the meantime, be ready for an exit, for me that is looking at the market and seeing what skills are in demand DB wise, where the work is and keeping/getting myself current, also, stuff like keeping fit and trim, having a CV ready, having a decent suit, reviewing interview skills, it all counts, I find it is easy to get complacent.
I suspect if I was made redundant on Monday, I could have a job by the end of the week, that isnt big headedness, it is just the market is fairly good, its just whether its a good gig that is comparable salary wise and doesn't involve two hours in the car each end of the day, better to hold on and get the right one.
omniflow said:
Whilst companies are supposed to follow the law in these cases, many of them don't. That's why people sign compromise agreements, or whatever the latest name for them is. Statutory redundancy is a pitiful sum. What they do try to do is dress everything up so that it looks like they've followed the rules, but they never do.
I've seen one of my ex-workmates have exactly this kind of thing done to him, pretty much forced out using underhand tactics, but nothing that he could specifically quantify in order to take it to a tribunal.We were both going to get Tuped across to a new company, I was lucky and managed to jump ship into the family business and he stayed on as the redundancy after 18 years was pitiful. He was a good guy, lots of knowledge and a hard worker, the trouble with big companies is that they don't see that kind of work ethic and treat everybody like a grunt. Our department got outsourced and I often go back out of morbid curiosity to see how the contractors are doing and it's unbelievable how badly they do the job with twice as many employees doing half as much work to a much lower standard and it's not a case of sour grapes.
Going back to your situation, sometimes you need to have your hand forced in order to go off in a different direction.
I wouldn't change my situation now, perhaps I should have done it years ago, perhaps I'd still be there now if things hadn't been forced on me?
omniflow said:
Breadvan72 said:
Doing deals to buy out rights is following the law, not breaking it.
That was the point that I was trying to make. Companies pay enhanced redundancy to "give themselves more flexibility"Also use the intervening period to get back on the tools and reaquaint yourself with the stuff you're rusty on. You might find things move slowly whilst they deal with the more important tasks of intergrating the two organisations. Could easily be a year before they get around to you.
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