Unfair contract terms?
Discussion
Lets say you work in the public sector where roles and very much dictated by grades and pay scales. The role you are in (Job 1) has a maximum grade but in order to attract the right person job 1 has to be advertised at a much higher grade which means including an element of a second role (Job 2), say 15% of your working time. The contract for Job 2 includes a condition that you are expected to work any reasonable hours over and above your contracted hours to do job 2. Your employer expects you to do that when the workload for Job 1 increases by 40% by passing Job 2 to another person.
Basically your working hours increase by 25% and your employer says that's what you are expected to do.
Basically your working hours increase by 25% and your employer says that's what you are expected to do.
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hstewie said:
hstewie said: What does the contract that the person doing job 1 signed say?
I'm no lawyer but surely that is all that matters.
This is my feeling but the job the person is actually doing (job 1) was put on the same contract as Job 2 so the employer could offer a higher salary. With it came the "reasonable additional hours to do Job 2", not Job 1.I'm no lawyer but surely that is all that matters.
Just seems the employer might be using the contract to their advantage a little unfairly, especially since the actual contract states additional hours to do Job 2, not job 1 which is completely different.
SantaBarbara said:
What is the persons Grade? Because it would probably be grade related.
What does the rule book or manual say?
This is the issue. Lets say Job 1's scale goes A-K,Job 2 starts at L and goes to Z. To get the right person they had to change job 1's title and description to include a small element of job 2 so they could get it though as a grade N. They are then applying a specific T&C of Job 2 to Job 1.What does the rule book or manual say?
Basically pay more than normal for Job 1 but impose an almost unlimited unpaid overtime condition to it when the T&C specifically state that its part of a Job 2 requirement.
I'm sure if job 1 was being paid at grade S or T the overtime would not be an issue.
21TonyK said:
Lets say you work in the public sector where roles and very much dictated by grades and pay scales. The role you are in (Job 1) has a maximum grade but in order to attract the right person job 1 has to be advertised at a much higher grade which means including an element of a second role (Job 2), say 15% of your working time. The contract for Job 2 includes a condition that you are expected to work any reasonable hours over and above your contracted hours to do job 2. Your employer expects you to do that when the workload for Job 1 increases by 40% by passing Job 2 to another person.
Basically your working hours increase by 25% and your employer says that's what you are expected to do.
It seems like Job 1 needs to go through a Job Evaluation process if the salary doesn't reflect market rates. One of the problems with the Public Sector is that it tends to put different jobs in the same payband, ignoring the fact that for some jobs there is a very healthy Private Sector market, whereas for others the only demand for those roles is in the Public Sector.Basically your working hours increase by 25% and your employer says that's what you are expected to do.
If I understand your post correctly OP - Job 1 is being paid partly at Job 2 rates to get round the payband limitations. However Job 2 carries the "necessary hours required to do the job" clause rather than paying overtime for additional hours.
First step would be a chat with the line manager. Step 2 would bea chat with your TU rep. Step 3 would be speaking to HR.
Countdown said:
If I understand your post correctly OP - Job 1 is being paid partly at Job 2 rates to get round the payband limitations. However Job 2 carries the "necessary hours required to do the job" clause rather than paying overtime for additional hours.
First step would be a chat with the line manager. Step 2 would bea chat with your TU rep. Step 3 would be speaking to HR.
Exactly as you understand. Both line manager and HR say clause is applicable but then they've not checked with LA HR.First step would be a chat with the line manager. Step 2 would bea chat with your TU rep. Step 3 would be speaking to HR.
It's probably going to come to nothing but if they can impose this condition but Job 1 could expand further still to increase by at least a further 10%. At this point we are looking at a 35-40% increase over and above job 1's contracted hours.
You cannot be asked to work unlimited overtime because you would soon fall could of the working time directive. With local authority jobs there is an evaluation model they use to trade etc. If you are not happy with the outcome you can ask for your job to be reassessed and if you can find a comparable role locally then that also helps.
craigjm said:
You cannot be asked to work unlimited overtime because you would soon fall could of the working time directive. With local authority jobs there is an evaluation model they use to trade etc. If you are not happy with the outcome you can ask for your job to be reassessed and if you can find a comparable role locally then that also helps.
This is half the problem. I think you might struggle to find the same Job 1 role on the same grade even nationally. As for WTD. Teacher contract,Countdown said:
21TonyK said:
This is half the problem. I think you might struggle to find the same Job 1 role on the same grade even nationally. As for WTD. Teacher contract,
If it's a teacher contract is it not limited to 1260 hours per annum? Or are you on Leadership scale ?My wife has a member of staff that looks at things this way, “why should I do any more than my contract states”.
He’s out on the dot of five, always takes his full lunch, and won’t cover for others when they are off.
She agreed with him, his contract was for that job, and those hours, and she could demand no more.
Come Christmas, the department had had a good year, and as per normal the staff were each called in turn into a room with her to get their annual bonus. The rest of the staff got a good amount, a few tens of thousands of pounds each. Some got promoted, some got a pay rise, but everyone got something.
Well, everyone but our literal-minded friend. He got thanked for his work, got a hand shake, and was sent back to his desk.
When he kicked off afterwards, he was asked back into the room, and politely reminded that he’d just been paid every last penny that his contract specified, and that he always would.
I can see why he was a stickler for the letter of the deal, but I don’t know that it’s a route that I’d ever want to take for myself.
If you dig your heels in, will it really get you where you want to be in the long run?
He’s out on the dot of five, always takes his full lunch, and won’t cover for others when they are off.
She agreed with him, his contract was for that job, and those hours, and she could demand no more.
Come Christmas, the department had had a good year, and as per normal the staff were each called in turn into a room with her to get their annual bonus. The rest of the staff got a good amount, a few tens of thousands of pounds each. Some got promoted, some got a pay rise, but everyone got something.
Well, everyone but our literal-minded friend. He got thanked for his work, got a hand shake, and was sent back to his desk.
When he kicked off afterwards, he was asked back into the room, and politely reminded that he’d just been paid every last penny that his contract specified, and that he always would.
I can see why he was a stickler for the letter of the deal, but I don’t know that it’s a route that I’d ever want to take for myself.
If you dig your heels in, will it really get you where you want to be in the long run?
James_B said:
Come Christmas, the department had had a good year, and as per normal the staff were each called in turn into a room with her to get their annual bonus. The rest of the staff got a good amount, a few tens of thousands of pounds each. Some got promoted, some got a pay rise, but everyone got something.
Well, everyone but our literal-minded friend. He got thanked for his work, got a hand shake, and was sent back to his desk.
I once worked with a chap who genuinely asked whether he would be getting overtime pay for attending the office Christmas night out on the basis that it was work-related. Well, everyone but our literal-minded friend. He got thanked for his work, got a hand shake, and was sent back to his desk.
StevieBee said:
I once worked with a chap who genuinely asked whether he would be getting overtime pay for attending the office Christmas night out on the basis that it was work-related.
Ha! Where I work they not only pay for Christmas party, including food and some drink, but also pay for a hotel room for people who don't live near the venue. Last year someone demanded travel expenses for getting there! Um, no. It's not as if it's even compulsory.James_B said:
My wife has a member of staff that looks at things this way, “why should I do any more than my contract states”.
He’s out on the dot of five, always takes his full lunch, and won’t cover for others when they are off.
She agreed with him, his contract was for that job, and those hours, and she could demand no more.
Come Christmas, the department had had a good year, and as per normal the staff were each called in turn into a room with her to get their annual bonus. The rest of the staff got a good amount, a few tens of thousands of pounds each. Some got promoted, some got a pay rise, but everyone got something.
Well, everyone but our literal-minded friend. He got thanked for his work, got a hand shake, and was sent back to his desk.
When he kicked off afterwards, he was asked back into the room, and politely reminded that he’d just been paid every last penny that his contract specified, and that he always would.
I can see why he was a stickler for the letter of the deal, but I don’t know that it’s a route that I’d ever want to take for myself.
If you dig your heels in, will it really get you where you want to be in the long run?
OP works in a school. They are notorious for expecting significant amounts of unpaid overtime from anybody in even a junior management position and they don't give bonuses. For anybody in a SMT role 60 hours/week was the norm.He’s out on the dot of five, always takes his full lunch, and won’t cover for others when they are off.
She agreed with him, his contract was for that job, and those hours, and she could demand no more.
Come Christmas, the department had had a good year, and as per normal the staff were each called in turn into a room with her to get their annual bonus. The rest of the staff got a good amount, a few tens of thousands of pounds each. Some got promoted, some got a pay rise, but everyone got something.
Well, everyone but our literal-minded friend. He got thanked for his work, got a hand shake, and was sent back to his desk.
When he kicked off afterwards, he was asked back into the room, and politely reminded that he’d just been paid every last penny that his contract specified, and that he always would.
I can see why he was a stickler for the letter of the deal, but I don’t know that it’s a route that I’d ever want to take for myself.
If you dig your heels in, will it really get you where you want to be in the long run?
With regards to your wife's circumstances perfectly understandable but slightly odd - in our place bonuses are set based on targets. Hit the targets, get the bonus. They're certainly not based upon "number of hours sat in the Office". Plus we have, as a minimum, quarterly performance meetings, so everybody should be aware of how they were performing and what their bonus was likely to be.
Countdown said:
OP works in a school. They are notorious for expecting significant amounts of unpaid overtime from anybody in even a junior management position and they don't give bonuses. For anybody in a SMT role 60 hours/week was the norm.
With regards to your wife's circumstances perfectly understandable but slightly odd - in our place bonuses are set based on targets. Hit the targets, get the bonus. They're certainly not based upon "number of hours sat in the Office". Plus we have, as a minimum, quarterly performance meetings, so everybody should be aware of how they were performing and what their bonus was likely to be.
It’s pretty normal in her business; management try to pay as little as they can while still having the staff turn up and do their best while the staff try to signal,that they’ll walk away if they don’t do better this year than last.With regards to your wife's circumstances perfectly understandable but slightly odd - in our place bonuses are set based on targets. Hit the targets, get the bonus. They're certainly not based upon "number of hours sat in the Office". Plus we have, as a minimum, quarterly performance meetings, so everybody should be aware of how they were performing and what their bonus was likely to be.
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