Disparate Pay & Contracting
Discussion
I am relatively senior in my company, being responsible for all of our database platforms across the organisation (global), and I have one direct report plus a 3rd party support company who works for us and reports directly to me (it probably isn't quite enough, but we cope). I am based in London, while the direct report is in New York, as is my boss.
Pay review time is now hitting at my company, and yesterday my (newish) boss discussed with me the increase for the employee who reports to me. He also let me know how much this employee was earning (which he probably shouldn't have). This was a "it is your turn increment" of a not insignificant amount of cash. I was not consulted until I was told it had been awarded. This is different to the way the UK side of things work (who I was initially employed by, and am still paid by).
It turns out, said employee, who was not employed by me, as he initially worked for a different department, is paid SUBSTANTIALLY more than me. On a technical level, I am superior (not trying to be bigheaded, I just am..I have greater experience, a wider depth of knowledge and am significantly faster in diagnosing and fixing a problem), plus I have a lot more experience in dealing with the "business" and how to speak to non-technical users. There has also been some other issues this year, which actually makes me quite surprised he got anything at all, which my boss is fully aware of.
On being told how much employee was being increased by and what he was actually earning, I did raise this with my boss, to be told, basically, "New York". My boss also informed me that when employees earn over X, they only get an increment every 18 months, and I did have a (small) increment last year. Well, I had to make clear to him I actually earn (a lot) less than X. This is now going to be raised with our CIO, although since he is US based and my pay is controlled by the UK CFO, it is unlikely much is going to change. I am relatively certain my boss isn't really going to push it, he didn't really care.
Some of this is probably my fault to a degree, as when I was promoted I didn't ask for more, and I probably should have. I didn't want to come across as greedy, and it was slightly more than a competing company were offering for my services. The increment last year was pretty small, but I just accepted it, better than nothing etc.
I do not blame my report, it isn't his fault. I do not expect to be given a pay rise to match/beat my report, since that it is a lot of money, but something would be appreciated. To clarify - the pay difference is actually a enough to employ a full time member of staff on our desktop support team.
The fact I work in the UK, for the UK arm of the company, and the other players in this are in the US does make me wonder if this is normal and not something I should be getting too upset about?
The way I see it, I have 2 options -
1 - Suck it up. My boss, who I and most people dislike, is not likely to do much as he doesn't really care. There is a significant chance I will get tupe-ed over to our parent at some point, but of course without sorting pay now, that will just mean I move on what I currently earn.
2 - Leave. I have been considering this for a few months already, and I have looked at the contracting market. If I went and contracted in London, I could earn a significant amount more, without a lot of the politics and hassle that comes with my position. My wife is due to give birth shortly, so I wouldn't resign until after I have taken paternity etc. I have a 3 month notice period, so no contract is likely to wait that long for me, so I would need to resign without anything to go to and wait until a month/few weeks before I finish to secure something. Since I would be waiting until after August to resign, it does give them time to do something about the pay situation.
Am I overreacting and being a diva? Or is this justified?
Re contracting, I know there are changes afoot and would need to look into this with a lot more detail before I took the plunge.
Pay review time is now hitting at my company, and yesterday my (newish) boss discussed with me the increase for the employee who reports to me. He also let me know how much this employee was earning (which he probably shouldn't have). This was a "it is your turn increment" of a not insignificant amount of cash. I was not consulted until I was told it had been awarded. This is different to the way the UK side of things work (who I was initially employed by, and am still paid by).
It turns out, said employee, who was not employed by me, as he initially worked for a different department, is paid SUBSTANTIALLY more than me. On a technical level, I am superior (not trying to be bigheaded, I just am..I have greater experience, a wider depth of knowledge and am significantly faster in diagnosing and fixing a problem), plus I have a lot more experience in dealing with the "business" and how to speak to non-technical users. There has also been some other issues this year, which actually makes me quite surprised he got anything at all, which my boss is fully aware of.
On being told how much employee was being increased by and what he was actually earning, I did raise this with my boss, to be told, basically, "New York". My boss also informed me that when employees earn over X, they only get an increment every 18 months, and I did have a (small) increment last year. Well, I had to make clear to him I actually earn (a lot) less than X. This is now going to be raised with our CIO, although since he is US based and my pay is controlled by the UK CFO, it is unlikely much is going to change. I am relatively certain my boss isn't really going to push it, he didn't really care.
Some of this is probably my fault to a degree, as when I was promoted I didn't ask for more, and I probably should have. I didn't want to come across as greedy, and it was slightly more than a competing company were offering for my services. The increment last year was pretty small, but I just accepted it, better than nothing etc.
I do not blame my report, it isn't his fault. I do not expect to be given a pay rise to match/beat my report, since that it is a lot of money, but something would be appreciated. To clarify - the pay difference is actually a enough to employ a full time member of staff on our desktop support team.
The fact I work in the UK, for the UK arm of the company, and the other players in this are in the US does make me wonder if this is normal and not something I should be getting too upset about?
The way I see it, I have 2 options -
1 - Suck it up. My boss, who I and most people dislike, is not likely to do much as he doesn't really care. There is a significant chance I will get tupe-ed over to our parent at some point, but of course without sorting pay now, that will just mean I move on what I currently earn.
2 - Leave. I have been considering this for a few months already, and I have looked at the contracting market. If I went and contracted in London, I could earn a significant amount more, without a lot of the politics and hassle that comes with my position. My wife is due to give birth shortly, so I wouldn't resign until after I have taken paternity etc. I have a 3 month notice period, so no contract is likely to wait that long for me, so I would need to resign without anything to go to and wait until a month/few weeks before I finish to secure something. Since I would be waiting until after August to resign, it does give them time to do something about the pay situation.
Am I overreacting and being a diva? Or is this justified?
Re contracting, I know there are changes afoot and would need to look into this with a lot more detail before I took the plunge.
How big is your fund to tide your over the period when you will have no income? Note it could easily be two months after you start a contract before the first money comes in. Build up a pot - if you can cover 6 months outgoings then you can be much more relaxed about things.
How likley are you to pick up work as a contractor? Talk to aquaintances & others in the business to find out. Start building contacts - some of the best jobs come by word of mouth. If jobs are easy to come by then that's great but if not then you have soem hard decisions to make.
Any restrictive covenants in your current contract that might affect who you can work for?
If your partner is about to pod is this really the best time to go out on your own? I t can be a very unstable way of life & while it will probabaly be fine in the long run, at first it can be quite unsettling.
Don't make a fuss, get a raise & then leave anyway. You'll just piss people off. Remember, in six months time you might be coming back to them as a contractor. Try not to burn bridges.
If you do have a discussion about more money, go into the meeting knowing what you want. If you don't get it, tell them you are disappointed & start the process of looking to leave if you still feel the same way. Remember, people usually only get significant rises by changing employers or being promoted & you've missed one of those two.
How likley are you to pick up work as a contractor? Talk to aquaintances & others in the business to find out. Start building contacts - some of the best jobs come by word of mouth. If jobs are easy to come by then that's great but if not then you have soem hard decisions to make.
Any restrictive covenants in your current contract that might affect who you can work for?
If your partner is about to pod is this really the best time to go out on your own? I t can be a very unstable way of life & while it will probabaly be fine in the long run, at first it can be quite unsettling.
Don't make a fuss, get a raise & then leave anyway. You'll just piss people off. Remember, in six months time you might be coming back to them as a contractor. Try not to burn bridges.
If you do have a discussion about more money, go into the meeting knowing what you want. If you don't get it, tell them you are disappointed & start the process of looking to leave if you still feel the same way. Remember, people usually only get significant rises by changing employers or being promoted & you've missed one of those two.
Thanks. So, fund wise, that will need building up but shouldn't take too long. I've had various people tell me different things about money, and when you would start seeing it, and how much. Some say you don't see any money for 6 months (or even until next tax year), others telling me this is tosh, it all seems to be down to which accountant you get and how it is done?
I do need to have a detailed conversation with a friend who does this stuff (he is an accountant and mortgage broker), and he set up a company for another friend for contracting etc.
Work wise, I don't see this as being a problem, I've never had an issue picking up perm work and my skill set is now pretty extensive. Contacts wise I do probably lack them and I really should create a LinkedIn account (I don't really do social media).
I will need to check my contract, but I am fairly certain that there are no covenants in it.
My wife is due to give birth in August, so I wouldn't even consider resigning until September/October and I could extend that into the new year just to make sure I have a nice buffer built up, along with letting child settle a bit.
The actual promotion came about because I resigned, and they panicked when they thought I was leaving. It actually wasn't my intention to do it, or hold them to ransom, I really was just going to leave, which is one of the reasons I didn't go big on salary increase. While I am glad I didn't leave and took their opportunity, I also wouldn't expect anything to be offered this time either and it is probably time to look at moving on.
While, ideally, I would get a reasonable raise and then move over to the parent (therefore moving boss, he won't get tupe-ed), as that would still allow me some security, the grass isn't always greener. Of course, that goes for anything new, but I guess at least with contracting I know I shouldn't have to deal with some of the extra rubbish that comes with being permanent and being so senior.
Some of this desire to leave is driven by the new boss, not just money, since he is so micro-managing (and it isn't just me he does this too, so it isn't personal) and at his level, it is surprising how much he wants to nitpick, even when he actually doesn't have a great deal of technical expertise with what he is questioning etc. It really feels like since he has started (middle of last year) a lot of the control over "my" domain has gone, or he undermines. I am also not the only one considering jumping ship due to him, but I guess the pay thing is the straw that is making me actively look at it.
I do need to have a detailed conversation with a friend who does this stuff (he is an accountant and mortgage broker), and he set up a company for another friend for contracting etc.
Work wise, I don't see this as being a problem, I've never had an issue picking up perm work and my skill set is now pretty extensive. Contacts wise I do probably lack them and I really should create a LinkedIn account (I don't really do social media).
I will need to check my contract, but I am fairly certain that there are no covenants in it.
My wife is due to give birth in August, so I wouldn't even consider resigning until September/October and I could extend that into the new year just to make sure I have a nice buffer built up, along with letting child settle a bit.
The actual promotion came about because I resigned, and they panicked when they thought I was leaving. It actually wasn't my intention to do it, or hold them to ransom, I really was just going to leave, which is one of the reasons I didn't go big on salary increase. While I am glad I didn't leave and took their opportunity, I also wouldn't expect anything to be offered this time either and it is probably time to look at moving on.
While, ideally, I would get a reasonable raise and then move over to the parent (therefore moving boss, he won't get tupe-ed), as that would still allow me some security, the grass isn't always greener. Of course, that goes for anything new, but I guess at least with contracting I know I shouldn't have to deal with some of the extra rubbish that comes with being permanent and being so senior.
Some of this desire to leave is driven by the new boss, not just money, since he is so micro-managing (and it isn't just me he does this too, so it isn't personal) and at his level, it is surprising how much he wants to nitpick, even when he actually doesn't have a great deal of technical expertise with what he is questioning etc. It really feels like since he has started (middle of last year) a lot of the control over "my" domain has gone, or he undermines. I am also not the only one considering jumping ship due to him, but I guess the pay thing is the straw that is making me actively look at it.
Pay differentials between different locations aren’t unusual. In our company there’s roughly a 10-20% difference in pay grades between London and Manchester. It’s part of the reason we’re looking to move roles out of London.
Your main issue seems to be unhappiness with your boss. that being the case I’d say leave. It doesn’t seem like he respects you or values you. Unless that changes I don’t see why you’d want to stay.
Your main issue seems to be unhappiness with your boss. that being the case I’d say leave. It doesn’t seem like he respects you or values you. Unless that changes I don’t see why you’d want to stay.
The scenario you mention seems pretty common when the company is a US one I've seen it before a lot recently, with Brexit on the cards as well a lot of US firms (and others) firms looking to reduce any UK IT footprint then have, dragging there heals on wages for UK staff is one way to do this, get staff to leave rather than pay redundancy is better for them. They seems to forget equal pay doesn't just relate gender it also relates to doing work of equal value regardless of gender
On the baby front if this is your first I would probably stay were you are, I got a job offer that was due to start a month or so after are first baby was born, in the end I turned it down it was 10% better money and was very annoyed but in hind sight it worked out for the best. I was established in my current job, wfh was easier, the times I couldn't come in due to issue with baby illness etc were easy to deal with, colleagues understood why I was so tired, in a new job it wouldn't have been that easy to get the flexibility. Don't under estimate how hard a new baby can be mine didn't sleep through till 22 months and was ill a lot from nursery so either me or the misses had to take time off and look after him,
On the baby front if this is your first I would probably stay were you are, I got a job offer that was due to start a month or so after are first baby was born, in the end I turned it down it was 10% better money and was very annoyed but in hind sight it worked out for the best. I was established in my current job, wfh was easier, the times I couldn't come in due to issue with baby illness etc were easy to deal with, colleagues understood why I was so tired, in a new job it wouldn't have been that easy to get the flexibility. Don't under estimate how hard a new baby can be mine didn't sleep through till 22 months and was ill a lot from nursery so either me or the misses had to take time off and look after him,
I wouldn't even think about trying to compare US/UK pay, I've got a few US staff and in most cases they own double or more what I do (I am UK based)....and that's pretty standard across our company.
Your much better comparing similar roles to yours in your area...it'll give you a much better idea on where you are in terms of pay scale.
I have a similar issue, have been with my company for 20 years now, am in a senior position for my area, however my salary hasn't really kept up with what I am doing. I've got a fund that will keep me going for a couple of years out of work if need be (it shouldn't be a problem though roles are plentiful in my space), but I am planning on handing my notice in at the end of this month to go contracting...I've been looking at it for a long time and I think now's teh right time.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do!
Your much better comparing similar roles to yours in your area...it'll give you a much better idea on where you are in terms of pay scale.
I have a similar issue, have been with my company for 20 years now, am in a senior position for my area, however my salary hasn't really kept up with what I am doing. I've got a fund that will keep me going for a couple of years out of work if need be (it shouldn't be a problem though roles are plentiful in my space), but I am planning on handing my notice in at the end of this month to go contracting...I've been looking at it for a long time and I think now's teh right time.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do!
Your comparison cross-boarder doesn’t make sense. Otherwise, they’d be asking you why you’re earning a lot more than your equivalent in India. 
How is your pay for your role when compared to the UK market? That’s the important question, and the only one any finance or HR person is going to care about.
How is your pay for your role when compared to the UK market? That’s the important question, and the only one any finance or HR person is going to care about.
You were going to leave previously, but they convinced you to stay by offering you a promotion and more responsibility but for a negligible pay increase? You should have negotiated a better salary increase at the time.
As others have said, forget about your colleagues pay due to country disparities. Assess your own level of pay for the role you are in, if not up to scratch then either ask for more money or leave.
As others have said, forget about your colleagues pay due to country disparities. Assess your own level of pay for the role you are in, if not up to scratch then either ask for more money or leave.
mathmos said:
I wouldn't even think about trying to compare US/UK pay, I've got a few US staff and in most cases they own double or more what I do (I am UK based)....and that's pretty standard across our company.
Your much better comparing similar roles to yours in your area...it'll give you a much better idea on where you are in terms of pay scale.
I have a similar issue, have been with my company for 20 years now, am in a senior position for my area, however my salary hasn't really kept up with what I am doing. I've got a fund that will keep me going for a couple of years out of work if need be (it shouldn't be a problem though roles are plentiful in my space), but I am planning on handing my notice in at the end of this month to go contracting...I've been looking at it for a long time and I think now's teh right time.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do!
US IT pay seems to be very high. I was once working on a system being delivered by a US company (using US based employees). One developer had a really nice screensaver of a house by a lake which I thought was some sort of dream home he aspired to.....turns out it was his current home Your much better comparing similar roles to yours in your area...it'll give you a much better idea on where you are in terms of pay scale.
I have a similar issue, have been with my company for 20 years now, am in a senior position for my area, however my salary hasn't really kept up with what I am doing. I've got a fund that will keep me going for a couple of years out of work if need be (it shouldn't be a problem though roles are plentiful in my space), but I am planning on handing my notice in at the end of this month to go contracting...I've been looking at it for a long time and I think now's teh right time.
Good luck with whatever you decide to do!
To the OP, how much more can you earn contracting (%)? Look at the negatives before you jump, it's not all high pay and tax evasion (far from it).
Contracting can be career ending in terms of promotion etc, you need to be happy doing what you do, and be someone that delivers rather then sits in meetings creating strategies and policies.
Personally I'm very happy contracting, however people who my peers 10 years ago are now heads of departments and CIO's.
Quite enlightening! We do not have a unified HR, so I deal with UK HR, he and my boss deal with NA HR. It can get a bit confusing, and I have no idea what the rest of his benefits package is. I do know he gets a lot less holiday, as do most of my US colleagues.
As it happens, I AM the head of a department, with a fairly pretentious job title that includes the word Director with global responsibilities. I am still very hands on technically, but also set policy and standards for all of our various DB technologies, architect new solutions and manage a small team, among other things.
Contracting wise, I would just be a DBA, and from looking around Jobserve etc, the day rate I could get would work out to be a significant amount more than what I earn right now, in the realms of 30-50%.
To compare my current position/salary with other equivalent perm roles, searching for a DBA/Senior DBA doesn't really help, so I probably need to look more at the department head type roles to see where I am, which I hadn't really considered until this thread, so that has been quite helpful. I still think of myself as a DBA, just with some added fluff, and that is a mindset I need to get away from.
I have been at this company for over 6 years now, so the uncertainty of contracting, the buffer needed and really my lack of knowledge around the whole process is what has held me back from just jumping in. And, as has been reasonably said, I should probably stay in this role for at least 6 months to a year before looking to go, with the imminent birth of our first child.
As it happens, I AM the head of a department, with a fairly pretentious job title that includes the word Director with global responsibilities. I am still very hands on technically, but also set policy and standards for all of our various DB technologies, architect new solutions and manage a small team, among other things.
Contracting wise, I would just be a DBA, and from looking around Jobserve etc, the day rate I could get would work out to be a significant amount more than what I earn right now, in the realms of 30-50%.
To compare my current position/salary with other equivalent perm roles, searching for a DBA/Senior DBA doesn't really help, so I probably need to look more at the department head type roles to see where I am, which I hadn't really considered until this thread, so that has been quite helpful. I still think of myself as a DBA, just with some added fluff, and that is a mindset I need to get away from.
I have been at this company for over 6 years now, so the uncertainty of contracting, the buffer needed and really my lack of knowledge around the whole process is what has held me back from just jumping in. And, as has been reasonably said, I should probably stay in this role for at least 6 months to a year before looking to go, with the imminent birth of our first child.
Monsterlime said:
To compare my current position/salary with other equivalent perm roles, searching for a DBA/Senior DBA doesn't really help, so I probably need to look more at the department head type roles to see where I am, which I hadn't really considered until this thread, so that has been quite helpful. I still think of myself as a DBA, just with some added fluff, and that is a mindset I need to get away from..
There you go - you need to search by your current job title, not by your skill set. Director level in a multinational should be rather well paid, so you may find the results eye opening. 
If you had three team members reporting to you in Tokyo, India and London would you expect to pay them the same? Of course not, you would pay them the going rate in the market they are paid in and not be interested in the internal comparison. Different markets will also provide different benefits. How does your pension, holiday, paternity and sickness pay compare with your US report?
Your decision should be based on your pay & benefits versus similar roles in the location you work in and how much you enjoy your job (there is no point moving from a job you like to one you hate for an extra £10k).
Your decision should be based on your pay & benefits versus similar roles in the location you work in and how much you enjoy your job (there is no point moving from a job you like to one you hate for an extra £10k).
DanL said:
There you go - you need to search by your current job title, not by your skill set. Director level in a multinational should be rather well paid, so you may find the results eye opening.
I may be missing the whoosh parrot but Job titles don't really equate to salaries. You also need to take into account the size of the company, its location, and even whether o not its has pre-defined pay scales for different roles. Director level in a multinational should be rather well paid, so you may find the results eye opening. For example an IT Director in a small firm (<10 employees) will not be earning anywhere near what a IT Senior manager in a multi-national might be earning.
Sounds like you basically caught word that someone below you, who you deem inferior is earning more than you so greed or jealousy has kicked in and you also want some. The question is...before you knew this, were you bothered about how "underpaid" you were?
You're comparing apples and oranges. Two different countries will pay different due to local market demands , otherwise people in India will be asking for £30k for a normal IT role just like their UK counterparts; it just isn't going to happen. Remember we get free NHS, insurance, etc - in the US they have to pay for all that privately.
I would look at jobs elsewhere around you right now - not in the US. That's your market rate.
You're comparing apples and oranges. Two different countries will pay different due to local market demands , otherwise people in India will be asking for £30k for a normal IT role just like their UK counterparts; it just isn't going to happen. Remember we get free NHS, insurance, etc - in the US they have to pay for all that privately.
I would look at jobs elsewhere around you right now - not in the US. That's your market rate.
Countdown said:
DanL said:
There you go - you need to search by your current job title, not by your skill set. Director level in a multinational should be rather well paid, so you may find the results eye opening.
I may be missing the whoosh parrot but Job titles don't really equate to salaries. You also need to take into account the size of the company, its location, and even whether o not its has pre-defined pay scales for different roles. Director level in a multinational should be rather well paid, so you may find the results eye opening. For example an IT Director in a small firm (<10 employees) will not be earning anywhere near what a IT Senior manager in a multi-national might be earning.
That’s why I said the bit in bold above. He’s said he’s got global responsibility and is comparing to two people in the US - he’s clearly working for a multinational.
Of course, it could still be a 100 man operation, but I’m assuming not...Director level at my place (9k people, multinational) is a six figure job title. Your mileage may vary, etc.
DanL said:
ell, duh.
That’s why I said the bit in bold above. He’s said he’s got global responsibility and is comparing to two people in the US - he’s clearly working for a multinational. Of course, it could still be a 100 man operation, but I’m assuming not...
Director level at my place (9k people, multinational) is a six figure job title. Your mileage may vary, etc.
Fairy Nuff That’s why I said the bit in bold above. He’s said he’s got global responsibility and is comparing to two people in the US - he’s clearly working for a multinational.
Of course, it could still be a 100 man operation, but I’m assuming not...Director level at my place (9k people, multinational) is a six figure job title. Your mileage may vary, etc.
Anubis said:
Sounds like you basically caught word that someone below you, who you deem inferior is earning more than you so greed or jealousy has kicked in and you also want some. The question is...before you knew this, were you bothered about how "underpaid" you were?
You're comparing apples and oranges. Two different countries will pay different due to local market demands , otherwise people in India will be asking for £30k for a normal IT role just like their UK counterparts; it just isn't going to happen. Remember we get free NHS, insurance, etc - in the US they have to pay for all that privately.
I would look at jobs elsewhere around you right now - not in the US. That's your market rate.
Not greed, perhaps a little jealousy, and a lot of surprise. And I don't deem anything, he is (hence the surprise), but going any further with that is not really fair on him. But, as I have already said, the thread has been enlightening and useful from a pay view, especially from a global perspective. Did I think I was underpaid before? Yes, a bit, but again, this thread has made me reconsider what I should have been looking for and what I am worth.You're comparing apples and oranges. Two different countries will pay different due to local market demands , otherwise people in India will be asking for £30k for a normal IT role just like their UK counterparts; it just isn't going to happen. Remember we get free NHS, insurance, etc - in the US they have to pay for all that privately.
I would look at jobs elsewhere around you right now - not in the US. That's your market rate.
For the others, yes, I am a global director in a large multinational with 10k staff just in EMEA, 20k+ globally, and that doesn't include our parent. And no, I am not paid a 6 figure salary. Was it a good opportunity when offered? Definitely. Should I have negotiated more ££, absolutely, and I completely accept that is my fault.
Have I thrown my toys out of my pram with my boss? No. While I have sought advice here, I have not "whined" to my boss or threatened etc. A professional conversation was had, and will be followed up on re my own pay review and not referencing my report's salary.
Will I consider leaving if very little comes of this pay review? Quite likely, however I will not just resign, it will be measured and considered carefully.
Thanks
98elise said:
US IT pay seems to be very high. I was once working on a system being delivered by a US company (using US based employees). One developer had a really nice screensaver of a house by a lake which I thought was some sort of dream home he aspired to.....turns out it was his current home
Outside of a few hotspots property is pretty cheap in the US, especially for the space you get.The other thing is that he might have 'lucked out' with share options or even made a bundle from the dot-com boom if he was in the right sort of industry. Quite common to come across apparently everyday colleagues there and find they have a lifestyle in a completely different league to a similar person in the UK.
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