Managing someone out

[StanleyT]

Arrgh, we successfully managed someone out of our business whom was a bullytime waster last year.

We've now bought out a competitor and under TUPE we've got the employee back.....but at a lower grade than originally. This is where it gets interesting as he told everyone he was going to new employer as a promotion - £25k/yr job team leader, rather than a £20k/yr skilled technician job with us, turns out he was a junior technician role (£16-18k) at the new place. (Our work doesn't offer references so we never had chance to verify where he was off to or what he was doing).

We've heard from one of the staff from NewCo that he reckon TUPE means he'll be re-instated at his old position and salary as it is less than 2 years since he left? That can't be right can it?

Original issue was he was bone idle lazy. Would turn up (sometimes as early as 7:15) but stay in his car until 1 minute before 8am and work until 4 pm and be out the car park 4:01 pm - which as we worked flexi hours anyway is strange - as long as you do your 7.5hrs per days you can start / finish 6am/7pm. However, half his shift would be spent moaning that he didn't have time to put the necessary PPE on as he had "Chrones" disease and would need to go to the loo before he got to the workplace (asbestos coveralls etc), so he'd never actually be there (strangely manifested the day after his promo to staff as he was originally a contractor). So then started spending hours in the toilet.

Eventually with the help of a few other staff we "at strategic times" removed all spare toilet paper from the loos, but this didn't seem to be an issue, obvs we couldn't spy on anyone in a toilet, but pretty much everyone thought there were no "toilet" problems happening.

Refused every engagement with our occo health and their offer of private treatment, to the point that he wouldn't go if we didn't get him a taxi, as he "doesn't drive on Motorways". Started going sick, magically was always sick for four days at a time so didn't need a doctors note. Eventually everyone just decided to stop talking to him, which was escalated to a union issue, "I need conversation or I get bored". Then he got the message, got a new job with company down the road, but still came back to "our" sandwich van for Friday sangers for about a year after - he even wore our company branded Polo shirts!

Sticking "Here is the desk for Matt, we remember you, you big Fat Lazy G&y Sh!!ting Yourself Fake Tw!T" will get us straight on a tribunal I guess?

[DocJock]

No idea how to deal with him, but if he really does have Crohn's disease, it can be classed as a disability under The Equality Act so I'd get reliable legal advice.

http://s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/files.crohnsandc...

[StanleyT]

And if he really did have Chrones, wouldn't you expect someone to produce at least one GPs note stating such, or take up the company offer of Private Medical help? Rather than say they couldn't go to the occo health one city away "as they don't drive on motorways....." (Apart from to and from work of course, easy to follow an employee when you have their home address on file!

So if someone refuses to provide proof (and this hasn't been an issue at NewCo as far as we are aware from our mole) of a disability how can a company be in contravention?

I suspect the bahavoir was slightly driven by an older boss we had whom left ten years or so ago. if your face wasn't fitting or the company was going through a hard time, he'd invite you in for a "FIFO" conversation, which would involve the choice of leaving the room empty handed, or leaving the room with £5/10k in cash and a reference envelope. All that stopped in 2006 though and this guy we finally managed out 2012.

[StanleyT]

Chrones by the way is his spelling!

[DocJock]

As I said, I'd be getting reliable, insured, legal advice rather than amateur advice (like mine) on here.

[techguyone]

Don't worry about it, just manage him out again, do it by the book to avoid compenshayshun malarky.

[ToothbrushMan]

whats "managing out"? sounds legally iffy to me.......

[delta0]

ToothbrushMan said:

whats "managing out"? sounds legally iffy to me.......

The easiest way to manage someone out is to pay them to leave (as mentioned above).

The slightly longer method is to only pay them the minimum increase per year, no bonus/shares/other perks. Start setting unreasonable objectives and deadlines to ensure they fail. Basically make them very unhappy at work so they decide to leave.

Edit:
The FT has a good overview of this and other things that are done to manage people out. https://www.ft.com/content/356ea48c-e6cf-11e6-967b...

Edited by delta0 on Sunday 7th October 20:27

[StanleyT]

delta0 said:

The easiest way to manage someone out is to pay them to leave (as mentioned above).

The slightly longer method is to only pay them the minimum increase per year, no bonus/shares/other perks. Start setting unreasonable objectives and deadlines to ensure they fail. Basically make them very unhappy at work so they decide to leave.

Edit:
The FT has a good overview of this and other things that are done to manage people out. https://www.ft.com/content/356ea48c-e6cf-11e6-967b...

Edited by delta0 on Sunday 7th October 20:27

Unfortunately that is how the whole of the staff are treated these days at OldCo and NewCo, !!!!!

[techguyone]

ToothbrushMan said:

whats "managing out"? sounds legally iffy to me.......

Not in my world, in my world targets are set, company rules are upheld, the process is simple (and if this guy hasn't changed his ways he'll manage himself out)

Friendly chat, verbal warning, written warning, final written warning, bye bye.

[MissChief]

IANAL but my understanding of TUPE was that he was protected against any change in role or pay or tenure at the old job when moving to the new one? He won’t get his old job back with you, just the same one he had at the other workplace?

Has anyone said what he was like at the other place?

[Countdown]

techguyone said:

Friendly chat, verbal warning, written warning, final written warning, bye bye.

"Friendly chat"
Union rep called in
Initial meeting held between management, HR, Union Rep, Individual
Improvement points agreed (timescale of 3 months)
3 months later - meeting postponed due to Union rep unavailable)
1 month later - Individual goes off sick
2 months later - individual raises grievance accusing Director of harassing him while he's off sick
1 month later - rescheduled "performance meeting" takes place. Union argues that performance hasn't improved due to sickness
Union argues that Perf Improvement Plan should be put on hold until Grievance has been resolved.
Separate chain of meetings being held in respect of the company's Disciplinary & Grievance Policy
Grievance not upheld - Mgmt re-instate performance mgmt meetings
Unions argue that timetable needs to be increased
Unions argue that Employee needs further training.
Employee goes off with anxiety and stress
Unions point out that "anxiery and stress" is a recognised disability and that the Employer has a legal duty to make reasonable adjustments..
Employee asks to work from home 4 days a week as a reasonable adjustment.
I could go on.....

[Cyberprog]

Sounds like a simple matter of offering him a compromise agreement with say 6months - a year's salary or the option that he will be given notice as his services are not required. That or go through the redundancy route and get rid of the junior position.

[StanleyT]

MissChief said:

IANAL but my understanding of TUPE was that he was protected against any change in role or pay or tenure at the old job when moving to the new one? He won’t get his old job back with you, just the same one he had at the other workplace?

Has anyone said what he was like at the other place?

A number of assessments of his performance have been made (we actually have quite a few staff whom have gone back and forth, sadly the way to progress in the parallel depts in both respective Cos is to move back and forth getting a promo each time - one wag claiming we didn't need spend £x million to buy the business he'd have stayed for a £2k payrise!!!) generally along the theme of "Fat smelly workshy tt" which in modern lingo I believe means that the employee has "some social skill negativeness and isn't as productive as his colleagues".

That is good that TUPE won't mean he gets his old role back. I'm sure there has already been a poster produced Jim Bowen Style "And look what you could have earnt" that'll appear on a wall adjacent to the FSWST soon (thanks security department for the old pass photo photochop!). We'll be able to rub it in that we now have a better pension Co Contribution scheme than we did two years ago as the TUPE staff are staying in their scheme as their staff vote was to retain a higher level of sickness PPI that their scheme offered in lieu of increased contributions!

[PorkRind]

Countdown said:

"Friendly chat"
Union rep called in
Initial meeting held between management, HR, Union Rep, Individual
Improvement points agreed (timescale of 3 months)
3 months later - meeting postponed due to Union rep unavailable)
1 month later - Individual goes off sick
2 months later - individual raises grievance accusing Director of harassing him while he's off sick
1 month later - rescheduled "performance meeting" takes place. Union argues that performance hasn't improved due to sickness
Union argues that Perf Improvement Plan should be put on hold until Grievance has been resolved.
Separate chain of meetings being held in respect of the company's Disciplinary & Grievance Policy
Grievance not upheld - Mgmt re-instate performance mgmt meetings
Unions argue that timetable needs to be increased
Unions argue that Employee needs further training.
Employee goes off with anxiety and stress
Unions point out that "anxiery and stress" is a recognised disability and that the Employer has a legal duty to make reasonable adjustments..
Employee asks to work from home 4 days a week as a reasonable adjustment.
I could go on.....

Imagine going through all that palava, not sure id have the stomach for it being the problem person !

[strain]

We once had a guy working in our team who was a tool and claimed disability.

He started the week after another guy on our team and within the first week put a complaint in against new guy #1. He was a major tool and always played the victim. My first issue with him was when I had to leave early one day to collect my daughter from nursery. I got approval to leave early and make the time up, my workstack was low so I gave him a few basic tasks and told him there was no major work planned and if anything popped up give me a shout.

Something urgent popped up, he decided to try it himself, cocked up then blamed me for not giving him correct instructions. I got told via text by a colleague and I was able to contact relevant people and sort the mess out from home. The next day he apologised and made it sound like he was forced to do it himself (He wasn't)

After a few more incidents he was told he wouldn't pass probation and theres the door. It's worth mentioning at this point his girlfriend worked on the adjacent team and the only reason he got the job.

He said he wasn't going to leave because we where wrong, put a complaint in against our manager as he 'didn't handle his complaint about new guy #1' adequately and played the disability card.

HR played a blinder and 5 of us had to make personal statements about his conduct, we all pretty much said he wasn't qualified, couldn't be trusted and ignored direct orders. He had a meeting scheduled for the Friday and he went off sick. Got engaged over the weekend and then got escorted off the premises Monday.

Never heard from him or about him again, although I did hear he works in a low paid support role now, managed to get into a load of debt and didn't tell his wife but theyre working through things

Hope you get rid of the tosser ASAP

[silent ninja]

Reminds me: nepotism.

I once worked at a FTSE 100 company for 3 years and always got looked over for promotion. One of the managers had a younger brother, and lo and behold he got promoted from a basic call centre job to an IT coordinator, then a service manager within 1 year. He'd literally leap frogged 3 levels up in seniority within months. He didn't have any experience and didn't have any qualifications (no degree either). Nepotism is wrife!

During his two promotions, other people were interviewed as a tick box exercises and given false excuses about why they'd failed.

[BobSaunders]

Just bin the guy off with a sufficient pay off and a NDA. As long as the insurance company and their legal, then it's all good.

You usually PIP manage someone when you sort of want to keep them, and think that they will be a good employee.

Cut to the chase - it's obvious it's more destructive to the employees around you.

[StanleyT]

Well the new contracts (i.e. name, grade, salary in Newco, T&Cs in Newco) for each individual were sent out yesterday and guess what. Mr. tt left work midway through the day, he isn't coming back until he has "fought it through with the unions".

HR informed and security advised pass deactivated for car park and buildings, "please let us know when you are returning to fulfil your contractural arrangements and require access".

"In the meanwhile, you are in breach of hours contract"......

Suspect we've seen (but not heard) the last of this fellow, though it will be flea fart noise now.

[p4cks]

Countdown said:

"Friendly chat"
Union rep called in
Initial meeting held between management, HR, Union Rep, Individual
Improvement points agreed (timescale of 3 months)
3 months later - meeting postponed due to Union rep unavailable)
1 month later - Individual goes off sick
2 months later - individual raises grievance accusing Director of harassing him while he's off sick
1 month later - rescheduled "performance meeting" takes place. Union argues that performance hasn't improved due to sickness
Union argues that Perf Improvement Plan should be put on hold until Grievance has been resolved.
Separate chain of meetings being held in respect of the company's Disciplinary & Grievance Policy
Grievance not upheld - Mgmt re-instate performance mgmt meetings
Unions argue that timetable needs to be increased
Unions argue that Employee needs further training.
Employee goes off with anxiety and stress
Unions point out that "anxiery and stress" is a recognised disability and that the Employer has a legal duty to make reasonable adjustments..
Employee asks to work from home 4 days a week as a reasonable adjustment.
I could go on.....

Yep - pretty much my experience when managing poor performance in my last place too