Managing someone out
Discussion
Countdown said:
HantsRat said:
How is it lazy if he does his 7.5 hour to the tee. 07.59 to 16.01. That is immaculate time keeping to me. You should never expect employees to work longer than their hours for free.
That's true but quite often i find that a person with that kind of mentality has usually spent the 7.5 hours doing as little as possible as well. i.e. its not that theyve put in 7.5 hours of hard graft, it's 7 hours of moaning, skiving, and buggering off as soon as they canThe most important thing to me is behaviours - you can train skills. I couldn’t care less if they are OAPs new to the workforce men women black white fat thin - actually a little bit annoying, all that matters is that they are able to do a great job and are totally part of the team.
Welshbeef said:
My mindset is a role has a task to deliver if your polroductivity is higher than a peer and you finish in half the time I’d have no issue with leaving early often. Or say his peer always working late making sure his boss sees him at his PC until his boss leaves..... maybe they are not as productive/overworked/not as competent/ brown nosing or form.
You're a "Finance Director" aren't you? I'm in the same line of work.How do you measure the productivity of a Finance Analyst?, in a way that allows comparison with somebody else doing the same role but for a different part of the company Or pick any role within your "team" that isn't mainly transactional (such as AR or AP)? As "Finance Director" you're probably aware that no two roles are exactly the same, the work done by Management Accountants will differ from Financial Accountants will differ from Capital Accountants will differ from Treasury. Not only will the work between teams differ, the works within the same teams can differ. And it's mainly qualitative rather than quantitative.
So how would you measure productivity?
Countdown said:
That's true but quite often i find that a person with that kind of mentality has usually spent the 7.5 hours doing as little as possible as well. i.e. its not that theyve put in 7.5 hours of hard graft, it's 7 hours of moaning, skiving, and buggering off as soon as they can
I feel that’s a little unfair.If I was just doing support calls at my job I work to my hours give it take 5 minutes.
However if there is an issue that needs doing or there’s an outage then I will stay until I no longer need to (or I really really need to get going)
But then it was flexi time so set hours were a grey area anyway. As long as you did 148 hours a month no one really batted an eyelid
HantsRat said:
How is it lazy if he does his 7.5 hour to the tee. 07.59 to 16.01. That is immaculate time keeping to me. You should never expect employees to work longer than their hours for free.
Because 99% of people have lives that require dentist appointments, boiler services, hair dressers for daughter's graduation, etc.Those that stick religiously to their exact contracted hours, the sort that don't start a new 7 minute task at 4.52pm because they might not be able to be sitting in their car at 5.01pm, seem to require more days from their annual leave for such things.
Those that are in about 8.55ish and leave about 5ish but have been known to get in at 7.on the odd occasion or work late when the hammer's down, don't even have people keeping an eye on if they do 'make up' the couple of hours here and there.
There should be give and take on both sides, especially when it is not an issue for the business or the employee.
Truth be told I have only ever met one 'Clock watcher' (for want of better term) who was/is a solid and valued employee. That said from the second they start to that they finish they are a total machine.
i Used to give and take, but it ended up my manager noticed i was putting more in and he started expecting more. Then one day he asked me why i wasnt staying till 6 any more, i said my contracted hours are 9-530 and that as it was summer i wanted to get out on his bike, he told me he'd have to take this up with HR -, and rightly so my contract was till 530 and he took great umbridge to this.. If there are projects on with go lives that need weekend or our of hours work doing i dont mind it but ill expect time in lieu or overtime unless i was a contractor or consultant.
PorkRind said:
i Used to give and take, but it ended up my manager noticed i was putting more in and he started expecting more. Then one day he asked me why i wasnt staying till 6 any more, i said my contracted hours are 9-530 and that as it was summer i wanted to get out on his bike, he told me he'd have to take this up with HR -, and rightly so my contract was till 530 and he took great umbridge to this.. If there are projects on with go lives that need weekend or our of hours work doing i dont mind it but ill expect time in lieu or overtime unless i was a contractor or consultant.
Creating the norm. In his defence he might genuinely not have known your contracted hours (he should have but he validated it and it should be matter closed).
Give and take respect acknowledgement praise thanks earned autonomy etc is how it should be ... then again you have micro managers and the only way to possibly get out of that is the breakback (where your pro actively in a meeting telling them what a problem/challenge is, what options you have investigated how your going to implement and if you need any help from them - a reverse SWOT keep doing that then the micro manager will appreciate your on it can be trusted as a self starter and finisher).... though some never change.
I used to work late every day at my last job. When I started it was a family firm type place and it was the norm for people to get in 5-10 minutes late, because we all left late. Company had 3 years of me working an extra 4-6 hours a week for free. Then I got a disciplinary and my new micromanager presenting me with an excel sheet of my door-entry key fob times. No mention of leaving, it's just a big green button to unlock.
Net result worked out really well in the end. I left at bang on 5 pm for a few weeks to make a point. Found out I really liked having more free time in the evening so kept it up permanently.
Net result worked out really well in the end. I left at bang on 5 pm for a few weeks to make a point. Found out I really liked having more free time in the evening so kept it up permanently.
SteBrown91 said:
I feel that’s a little unfair.
If I was just doing support calls at my job I work to my hours give it take 5 minutes.
However if there is an issue that needs doing or there’s an outage then I will stay until I no longer need to (or I really really need to get going)
But then it was flexi time so set hours were a grey area anyway. As long as you did 148 hours a month no one really batted an eyelid
Sorry I think I generalised. I completely agree that for certain roles you can only do what you can within fixed hours and that staying longer shouldn't be a regular occurrence (and actually if staff need to do this regularly it's a sign of bad management).If I was just doing support calls at my job I work to my hours give it take 5 minutes.
However if there is an issue that needs doing or there’s an outage then I will stay until I no longer need to (or I really really need to get going)
But then it was flexi time so set hours were a grey area anyway. As long as you did 148 hours a month no one really batted an eyelid
In my line of work it tends to be more quality based; so for example one person could do a 22 page report, detailed charts/appendices, what if scenarions and so on. Another person might do the same report in 5 pages, not as comprehensive or as easy to understand.
Arguable they've both done a "report" but there's a massive difference in quality. Now if the 2nd guy is leaving regularly at 5pm on the dot then it would be a performance issue.
StanleyT said:
................ Would turn up (sometimes as early as 7:15) but stay in his car until 1 minute before 8am and work until 4 pm and be out the car park 4:01 pm - which as we worked flexi hours anyway is strange - as long as you do your 7.5hrs per days you can start / finish 6am/7pm.
Sounds like someone who got shat on by management, either there or in previous employment. At one place I used to be in early, leaving late, working through breaks to get stuff done..... But then they decided to get petty about turning up 25 seconds late for a 5am shift, full on disciplinary BS, when my street was blocked by a brick delivery truck at 4am, and from that point onwards I thought "f**k em, i'm working to the clock, not a second more, not a second less".lyonspride said:
Sounds like someone who got shat on by management, either there or in previous employment. At one place I used to be in early, leaving late, working through breaks to get stuff done..... But then they decided to get petty about turning up 25 seconds late for a 5am shift, full on disciplinary BS, when my street was blocked by a brick delivery truck at 4am, and from that point onwards I thought "f**k em, i'm working to the clock, not a second more, not a second less".
I highly doubt someone is going to get a disciplinary for being 25 seconds late - not unless they we’re also being managed out....Sounds like we have a few internal terrorist on the thread.
You must have the right behaviours
You must believe and live the company culture - be a brand ambassador
Pride in what you do
Trust respect of leaders - even if they are a t
t, tts get found out OR you’ve become complacent and the tt style of management bing used is akin to a car park chat which you hopefully will turnaround.
Good people are never sacked great people are always identified and will be on the companies succession plans.
When seas your last appraisal? How about formal 121’s to manage expectations understand performance development gaps mentoring etc.
Everyone at some point has worked for a st boss or a st colleague it’s how you adapt / being dynamic to the situation that elevates you.
Go forth and prosper - go to work with a smile on your face come home the same.
Failing that it’s probably not the right company or job for you so consider moving to somewhere else where you will be happier and thrive.
My view is no one goes to work day in day out to do a st job there is a root cause understand what that is and it benefits the company and the individual.
You must have the right behaviours
You must believe and live the company culture - be a brand ambassador
Pride in what you do
Trust respect of leaders - even if they are a t
t, tts get found out OR you’ve become complacent and the tt style of management bing used is akin to a car park chat which you hopefully will turnaround. Good people are never sacked great people are always identified and will be on the companies succession plans.
When seas your last appraisal? How about formal 121’s to manage expectations understand performance development gaps mentoring etc.
Everyone at some point has worked for a s
t boss or a st colleague it’s how you adapt / being dynamic to the situation that elevates you. Go forth and prosper - go to work with a smile on your face come home the same.
Failing that it’s probably not the right company or job for you so consider moving to somewhere else where you will be happier and thrive.
My view is no one goes to work day in day out to do a s
t job there is a root cause understand what that is and it benefits the company and the individual. eliot said:
lyonspride said:
Sounds like someone who got shat on by management, either there or in previous employment. At one place I used to be in early, leaving late, working through breaks to get stuff done..... But then they decided to get petty about turning up 25 seconds late for a 5am shift, full on disciplinary BS, when my street was blocked by a brick delivery truck at 4am, and from that point onwards I thought "f**k em, i'm working to the clock, not a second more, not a second less".
I highly doubt someone is going to get a disciplinary for being 25 seconds late - not unless they we’re also being managed out....After this occurred, if I thought I was going to be late I would just call in sick, get the Westfield out of the garage and go have some fun
After that I didn't really want to be there anymore, but I managed to drag that out for 2 years before the place shut down and I got my redundancy payout, said manager was then unemployed for 9 months and eventually ended up in an entry level role at GE.
This is why I always have a nice fat cushion of "f**k you money", new cars are nice, but don't even compare to telling a c*nt of a boss to go f**k himself, and "oh i'd like 3 months pay for nothing, other wise this audio recording of you saying/dping XYZ will be sent to the owner".
That said, i'm really loyal and hard working until people f**k with me. I think that goes for most people TBH., it's just that some seem to forget that when given a cap.
I don't think this entirely relevant to the topic now, but it's important to remember that the people you cross on the way up are the same people you meet on the way down.
Sometimes a "problem employee" is only a problem because other people say so, you always find what your looking for and when you hear someone is doing XYZ, you quickly find it's true, but how true? If someone is said to be "ALWAYS on their mobile", you might decide to walk past every day, you may not see a problem for days on end, but you only need to see it once to have these allegations confirmed and then suddenly your playing into the hands of the real trouble makers.
Edited by lyonspride on Friday 19th October 09:55
Countdown said:
lyonspride said:
I don't think this entirely relevant to the topic now, but it's important to remember that the people you cross on the way up are the same people you meet on the way down.
Why are these people still in the same place? lyonspride said:
I've been in the "managed out" situation, the 25s late was not that, it was just an overzealous manager being a c*nt.
After this occurred, if I thought I was going to be late I would just call in sick, get the Westfield out of the garage and go have some fun
This is why I always have a nice fat cushion of "f**k you money", new cars are nice, but don't even compare to telling a c*nt of a boss to go f**k himself, and "oh i'd like 3 months pay for nothing, other wise this audio recording of you saying/dping XYZ will be sent to the owner".
That said, i'm really loyal and hard working until people f**k with me. I think that goes for most people TBH., it's just that some seem to forget that when given a cap.
I really do hope that's internet bravado and not true.After this occurred, if I thought I was going to be late I would just call in sick, get the Westfield out of the garage and go have some fun
This is why I always have a nice fat cushion of "f**k you money", new cars are nice, but don't even compare to telling a c*nt of a boss to go f**k himself, and "oh i'd like 3 months pay for nothing, other wise this audio recording of you saying/dping XYZ will be sent to the owner".
That said, i'm really loyal and hard working until people f**k with me. I think that goes for most people TBH., it's just that some seem to forget that when given a cap.
lyonspride said:
Countdown said:
lyonspride said:
I don't think this entirely relevant to the topic now, but it's important to remember that the people you cross on the way up are the same people you meet on the way down.
Why are these people still in the same place? Although I'm kidding - if we look a things logically - let's say I apply to a company where somebody I previously encountered also works. It may be that the person has influence over whether or not I get the job I'm applying for. If they DO then I probably wouldn't want to work for them anyway, so it's a win-win all round.
Edited by Countdown on Friday 19th October 11:37
Countdown said:
lyonspride said:
Countdown said:
lyonspride said:
I don't think this entirely relevant to the topic now, but it's important to remember that the people you cross on the way up are the same people you meet on the way down.
Why are these people still in the same place? Although I'm kidding - if we look a things logically - let's say I apply to a company where somebody I previously encountered also works. It may be that the person has influence over whether or not I get the job I'm applying for. If they DO then I probably wouldn't want to work for them anyway, so it's a win-win all round.
Most people would hide under their desk, afraid of getting involved, but i'm a stubborn motherf**ker and I know that power hungry psychopathic managers never stop at just one person, first they come for your colleagues and next time they come for you, someone has to make a stand and do what's right.
In those situations we're on borrowed time anyway, might as well do your best to nuke the f**kers from orbit before you leave and if anyone thinks they're getting a good reference from a bad manager if they kiss enough arse, they're delusional, it doesn't happen.
Countdown said:
Welshbeef said:
My mindset is a role has a task to deliver if your polroductivity is higher than a peer and you finish in half the time I’d have no issue with leaving early often. Or say his peer always working late making sure his boss sees him at his PC until his boss leaves..... maybe they are not as productive/overworked/not as competent/ brown nosing or form.
You're a "Finance Director" aren't you? I'm in the same line of work.How do you measure the productivity of a Finance Analyst?, in a way that allows comparison with somebody else doing the same role but for a different part of the company Or pick any role within your "team" that isn't mainly transactional (such as AR or AP)? As "Finance Director" you're probably aware that no two roles are exactly the same, the work done by Management Accountants will differ from Financial Accountants will differ from Capital Accountants will differ from Treasury. Not only will the work between teams differ, the works within the same teams can differ. And it's mainly qualitative rather than quantitative.
So how would you measure productivity?
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