Managing someone out
Discussion
garyhun said:
However as a starter for ten
1. cash management comprising of
Debt
Supplier payment
WIP management
2. Forecast accuracy
3. Quality of period end results incl the commentary
4. pace of close out of period end
5. Resolution of auditor queries
6. Process improvement
7. Development of non finance teams
8. Bringing the numbers to light
9. Effectiveness as a finance business partner
10. Do they manage a team of any sorts? If so management / attrition/people development / decreasing Bradford factors /
Etc etc.
You can go very bespoke dependant to the specific role and responsibility of the individual.
Note as so often on here people think I have a close involvement with taxation/vat etc nonsense that is all down to the relevant teams. I also do not work with central finance at all / I say at all there is by default a soft touch but my role and my teams role is very coal face /operationally driven.
Finance might mean to many “number cruncher” that is not what i do not what I have been doing for best part of 20+ years.
I have a high exposure for pretty frequent TUPE every year and have had to be either directly involved with or partly involved with exiting problematic people - one of which was an utter nightmare the union rep of 27years service.
Welshbeef said:
garyhun said:
However as a starter for ten
1. cash management comprising of
Debt
Supplier payment
WIP management
2. Forecast accuracy
3. Quality of period end results incl the commentary
4. pace of close out of period end
5. Resolution of auditor queries
6. Process improvement
7. Development of non finance teams
8. Bringing the numbers to light
9. Effectiveness as a finance business partner
10. Do they manage a team of any sorts? If so management / attrition/people development / decreasing Bradford factors /
Etc etc.
You can go very bespoke dependant to the specific role and responsibility of the individual.
Note as so often on here people think I have a close involvement with taxation/vat etc nonsense that is all down to the relevant teams. I also do not work with central finance at all / I say at all there is by default a soft touch but my role and my teams role is very coal face /operationally driven.
Finance might mean to many “number cruncher” that is not what i do not what I have been doing for best part of 20+ years.
I have a high exposure for pretty frequent TUPE every year and have had to be either directly involved with or partly involved with exiting problematic people - one of which was an utter nightmare the union rep of 27years service.
garyhun said:
Welshbeef said:
garyhun said:
However as a starter for ten
1. cash management comprising of
Debt
Supplier payment
WIP management
2. Forecast accuracy
3. Quality of period end results incl the commentary
4. pace of close out of period end
5. Resolution of auditor queries
6. Process improvement
7. Development of non finance teams
8. Bringing the numbers to light
9. Effectiveness as a finance business partner
10. Do they manage a team of any sorts? If so management / attrition/people development / decreasing Bradford factors /
Etc etc.
You can go very bespoke dependant to the specific role and responsibility of the individual.
Note as so often on here people think I have a close involvement with taxation/vat etc nonsense that is all down to the relevant teams. I also do not work with central finance at all / I say at all there is by default a soft touch but my role and my teams role is very coal face /operationally driven.
Finance might mean to many “number cruncher” that is not what i do not what I have been doing for best part of 20+ years.
I have a high exposure for pretty frequent TUPE every year and have had to be either directly involved with or partly involved with exiting problematic people - one of which was an utter nightmare the union rep of 27years service.
Welshbeef said:
I’d add also that job title can mean some organisations call qualified accountants finance anlysists whilsts others who have just joined as novices as in commencing accountancy qualification. Hence role and responsibility is vital before comparisons are drawn.
In English please!Welshbeef said:
Pretty straight forward Id be setting up suitable KPIs
No, they sound good but they're completely meaningless. In all honesty It's what I'd expect a 3rd year Business studies student to come up with Welshbeef said:
However as a starter for ten
1. cash management comprising of
Debt
Supplier payment
WIP management
How is that at an individual member of staff level? That might be a good KPI for the enitre Treasury department. It's pointless for a single person (which is what we were talking about). And I'm puzzled as to how a single person could manage WIP or even an entire finance team? It's a wholly operational factor which might be discussed between Finance and Ops.1. cash management comprising of
Debt
Supplier payment
WIP management
Welshbeef said:
2. Forecast accuracy
No two individuals have the same budgets, the same forecast issues, the same expenditure volatility, or the same budget holders. How would you compare somebody whose budget consists of one payment of £5m per annum, against somebody whose budget hiolder is responsible for £1000000 made up of 50000 payments?Welshbeef said:
3. Quality of period end results incl the commentary
Actually that is a good one for MA/FA.Welshbeef said:
4. pace of close out of period end
And so is that.Welshbeef said:
5. Resolution of auditor queries
Unless you're sat with them and the auditors you've literally no idea what the auditors asked or the quality of the answer provided. You've no idea if it was a one word answer or if they had to take the auditor through the entire system from scratch. You've no idea if the auditor is an expert on that particular system or if they're a complete noob. And, as such, that KPI would be meaningless.Welshbeef said:
6. Process improvement
Airy fairy nonsense. How on earth is this a KPI (as in something you set out at the beginning of the year)? They may well do it as part of their role, and some staff may work in areas that need process improvement but others will not. Some staff may have come from the outside with new and fresh ideas, others will not. By all means have a Quality group that looks at Continuous process improvement but having it as a KPI or a productivity measure is silly, and possibly demotivating.Welshbeef said:
7. Development of non finance teams
Again, airy fairy nonsense. How will you measure how much a non-Finance team has developed?Welshbeef said:
8. Bringing the numbers to light
Please define the level of candelas the numbers need to provide. You might as well say "being really good at their job"Welshbeef said:
9. Effectiveness as a finance business partner
Oh wait, you did....Welshbeef said:
10. Do they manage a team of any sorts? If so management / attrition/people development / decreasing Bradford factors /
This started off with me asking how you would compare two members of staff. This "KPI" is again an example where two managers have to completely different sets of circumstances so it's very hard to compare two managers on a like for like basis.Etc etc.
Welshbeef said:
You can go very bespoke dependant to the specific role and responsibility of the individual.
the most accurate thing you've said in all your posts.Welshbeef said:
Note as so often on here people think I have a close involvement with taxation/vat etc nonsense
I doubt anybody who has read any of your finance posts thinks that.Welshbeef said:
that is all down to the relevant teams. I also do not work with central finance at all / I say at all there is by default a soft touch but my role and my teams role is very coal face /operationally driven.
You're Finance Director. By the very definition of the Job Title how on earth can that NOT be "central finance"? It's at the very heart of the business. in the next sentence you say your and your "team's" role is at the coal face and operationally driven yet you also don't have "a close involvement with tax or VAT". If you really ARE at the coal face I would expect you to know, at the very least, the basics of both tax and VAT. Just to point out that VAT is tax, it stands for Value Added Tax. Admittedly only those at the coal face would know that.Welshbeef said:
Finance might mean to many “number cruncher” that is not what i do not what I have been doing for best part of 20+ years.
I'm a Financial Controller (deputy FD). there is number crunching involved at EVERY SINGLE LEVEL in industry. the only difference being that the numbers get gradually bigger. the reports that I prepare are a consolidation of the reports that each team has prepared for me. there are no roles in finance that don't involve crunching numbers.Welshbeef said:
I have a high exposure for pretty frequent TUPE every year and have had to be either directly involved with or partly involved with exiting problematic people - one of which was an utter nightmare the union rep of 27years service.
Are you sure you've not confused Finance Director with HR Director?Edited by Countdown on Friday 19th October 16:39
Welshbeef said:
I’d add also that job title can mean some organisations call qualified accountants finance anlysists whilsts others who have just joined as novices as in commencing accountancy qualification. Hence role and responsibility is vital before comparisons are drawn.
A finance analyst can be unqualified, part qualified, fully qualified. It's basically a glorified management accountant. A lot of places now call them Finance Business Partners
t act 2012.Countdown said:
Are you sure you've not confused Finance Director with HR Director?
You see the beauty of what I do where I work is we have a highly downstreamed business model and I can assure you involvement with central finance for me is highly limited & note in our part of the company alone there are 6 other FD’s all managing what effectively are large SME’s. Edited by Countdown on Friday 19th October 16:39
Hand on heart I cannot recall the last time this year that I spoke to the Financial controller - posssibly for SOX return sign off.
You are clearly in the central finance hub - I work out with suppliers customers (as in who we invoice who we have our business with) and winning+ mobilising new business.
I left central finance 20odd years ago to move to the coal face and would never return it has to me no hooks that gain my attention.
Note if not even met our treasure department / as I don’t need to, I don’t do vat or tax - as I don’t need to again I don’t know the team and have never spoken to them / only respond if they raise a challenge for audit (but i don’t recall anything in the last 5 years or so).
Honestly if your in town we should catch up for beer and properly talk shop (It’s a small world and who knows we might work for same company....)
Welshbeef said:
You see the beauty of what I do where I work is we have a highly downstreamed business model and I can assure you involvement with central finance for me is highly limited & note in our part of the company alone there are 6 other FD’s all managing what effectively are large SME’s.
I would be interested to know what a 'highly downstreamed' business model is. I'n FCCA qualified nd whilst i know what downstream and upstream are, I have no idea what a highly downstreamed business model is (without any other context)Welshbeef said:
Hand on heart I cannot recall the last time this year that I spoke to the Financial controller - posssibly for SOX return sign off.
Job title is a bit meaingless - Im Deputy FD so basically in charge of all of Finance. My boss is exec Director Corporate ServicesWelshbeef said:
You are clearly in the central finance hub - I work out with suppliers customers (as in who we invoice who we have our business with) and winning+ mobilising new business.
Unless you're an exceptionally small company that would seem to be the remit of the Sales Director to me. certianly not somebody who specialises in Finance and certainly not somebody who deals with TUPE and is skilled enough to get rid of a union rep with 27 years experience.Welshbeef said:
I left central finance 20odd years ago to move to the coal face and would never return it has to me no hooks that gain my attention.
Note if not even met our treasure department / as I don’t need to, I don’t do vat or tax - as I don’t need to again I don’t know the team and have never spoken to them / only respond if they raise a challenge for audit (but i don’t recall anything in the last 5 years or so).
1. The "leaving central finance 20 years ago" does not compute with "Finance Director". As i suggested earlier there is nobody more central to Finance than the Finance Director.Note if not even met our treasure department / as I don’t need to, I don’t do vat or tax - as I don’t need to again I don’t know the team and have never spoken to them / only respond if they raise a challenge for audit (but i don’t recall anything in the last 5 years or so).
2. The "not meeting you Treasury department" does not compute with "Finance Director". To be fair SME's might have a treasury accountant rather than a department but the FD (or somebody who reports to the FD) needs to be on very close terms with treasury. Not just Treasury, ALL aspects of Finance. thats the point I'm making. You keep saying you're a Finance Director but you don't deal with, or seem to have any interest in, or have any knowledge of, any parts of operational or strategic finance
Welshbeef said:
Honestly if your in town we should catch up for beer and properly talk shop (It’s a small world and who knows we might work for same company....)
Yes, we've been here before. You were going to PM me your linkedin details. Strangely I didn't get your message. Strangely other people on here have pm'd me since then and before then so clearly the PH email system is working fine. 
You seem a fairly inoffensive bloke. I just don't know why you insist on pretending to be something you're not.
Countdown said:
Yes, we've been here before. You were going to PM me your linkedin details. Strangely I didn't get your message. Strangely other people on here have pm'd me since then and before then so clearly the PH email system is working fine.
You seem a fairly inoffensive bloke. I just don't know why you insist on pretending to be something you're not.
Let’s say a beer in the station pub assuming you come to Reading before off home? You seem a fairly inoffensive bloke. I just don't know why you insist on pretending to be something you're not.
Welshbeef said:
Let’s say a beer in the station pub assuming you come to Reading before off home?
A word to the wise- my PH profile is probably as truthful as yours - I’m just hoping there aren’t any genuine Town Planning & Noise Guidance Advisors on here, otherwise my cover’s blown !Would your company consider a compromise agreement? Or would paying him off leave a bad taste?
We've used a this route a couple of times on members of staff that we know are taking the piss, there are some roles where productivity is very hard to gauge and trying to manage somebody out would take longer and cost more money than just a simple pay off.
We've used a this route a couple of times on members of staff that we know are taking the piss, there are some roles where productivity is very hard to gauge and trying to manage somebody out would take longer and cost more money than just a simple pay off.
Countdown said:
Welshbeef said:
You see the beauty of what I do where I work is we have a highly downstreamed business model and I can assure you involvement with central finance for me is highly limited & note in our part of the company alone there are 6 other FD’s all managing what effectively are large SME’s.
Sorry, I missed this little nugget before.....
If there are 6 other FDs in your part of the company alone why are YOU the one that’s signing off the Sarbox returns?
Welshbeef said:
Countdown said:
Sorry, I missed this little nugget before.....
If there are 6 other FDs in your part of the company alone why are YOU the one that’s signing off the Sarbox returns?
I’m not I’m submitting our divisions returns. If there are 6 other FDs in your part of the company alone why are YOU the one that’s signing off the Sarbox returns?
Countdown said:
I’m genuinely confused. So you’re only submitting the returns for your part of the company (ie a division, not a whole company). Which forms are you signing off and who are these submitted to?
Why waste your time? No one in their right mind would believe a word he says.Gassing Station | Jobs & Employment Matters | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff